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What is the actual issue with the Irish Rail seat reservations system

techdiver

Hi,

Does anyone know here what the details of the implementation of the seat reservations system for Irish Rail trains? It seems, for want of a better description, utter crap.

It is a complete lottery as to whether names are actually displayed over seats. This is a major annoyance for me as a regular commuter as I take the time to turn up in time to secure a seat on a busy service, being careful not to sit in a reserved seat. The issue arises on regular occasions that despite no names being displayed over seats I am still sitting in a reserved seat. Of course people who reserve seats tend to turn up at the last second and that leaves me standing as no other seats are available. I have also noticed names appearing randomly during a journey after already having left Connolly etc.

So what is the problem with the system? Is it automated (if it is it's incredibly fragile) or does it require manual input at the station (wtf if so)? Seat reservations have been available on these new sets for 10+ years now and the system is still no better. What are the technical barriers that prevent Irish Rail from fixing this?

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Del.Monte

Paper signs on the seats enforced by staff worked perfectly for years but CIE couldn't get rid of the staff off trains quick enough.

TheShow

its just a rubbish system.
its very frustrating.

I've stopped acceding to those who have reserved seats. My rule is, if there is no name in lights above the seat when I sit down, then I ain't getting up no matter what.
Annual ticket costs a bloody fortune compared to some bumpkin who has paid €10 to go up to the big smoke for the day.

[Deleted User]

Why not have each ticket display a seat number by default? Similar to a plane. If all the seats are gone, then you get a standing only ticket, but that's your own fault for being late to the party.

XPS_Zero

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not have each ticket display a seat number by default? Similar to a plane. If all the seats are gone, then you get a standing only ticket, but that's your own fault for being late to the party.

ATM the ticket office machines and online system are not connected to each other so there is no server somewhere that knows how many seats are sold so the ticket office stops issuing tickets for that train

There should be, but IE is pretty incompetent as an organization so don't hold your breath.

el Fenomeno

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve noticed that often there are displays saying someone has booked a seat but that person never arrives

The majority of the time they've just chosen to sit in the closest carriage that pulls up to them on the platform.

Emme

Why don't seat reservations say where passengers are getting on and not just put names there?

Jamie2k9

Emme wrote: »

Why don't seat reservations say where passengers are getting on and not just put names there?

They do already. It will say reserved from x station. If there is a name there when for example you leave Heuston it means they have not turned up or sat elsewhere.

Hardcharger

techdiver wrote: »

Hi,

Does anyone know here what the details of the implementation of the seat reservations system for Irish Rail trains? It seems, for want of a better description, utter crap.

It is a complete lottery as to whether names are actually displayed over seats. This is a major annoyance for me as a regular commuter as I take the time to turn up in time to secure a seat on a busy service, being careful not to sit in a reserved seat. The issue arises on regular occasions that despite no names being displayed over seats I am still sitting in a reserved seat. Of course people who reserve seats tend to turn up at the last second and that leaves me standing as no other seats are available. I have also noticed names appearing randomly during a journey after already having left Connolly etc.

So what is the problem with the system? Is it automated (if it is it's incredibly fragile) or does it require manual input at the station (wtf if so)? Seat reservations have been available on these new sets for 10+ years now and the system is still no better. What are the technical barriers that prevent Irish Rail from fixing this?

The best way around any hassle is to book online. The carriage number and seat is on your ticket so if your name doesn't come up you are entitled to sit there. You will not be sitting in a seat reserved and get into bother with somone coming at the last minute. If you come across someone occupying your seat you can show them the ticket and they are obliged to move.

Plus it's cheaper.

Less stress

Del.Monte

Hardcharger wrote: »

The best way around any hassle is to book online. The carriage number and seat is on your ticket so if your name doesn't come up you are entitled to sit there. You will not be sitting in a seat reserved and get into bother with somone coming at the last minute. If you come across someone occupying your seat you can show them the ticket and they are obliged to move.

Plus it's cheaper.

Less stress

How so if you have to fight with someone who refuses to move? Do you ask the Gourmet Rail operative, if there's a trolley, to evict the person sitting in your seat? :rolleyes:

Jem72

Hardcharger wrote: »

The best way around any hassle is to book online. The carriage number and seat is on your ticket so if your name doesn't come up you are entitled to sit there. You will not be sitting in a seat reserved and get into bother with somone coming at the last minute. If you come across someone occupying your seat you can show them the ticket and they are obliged to move.

Plus it's cheaper.

Less stress

Not everyone has the option of booking online. It doesn't work for those on monthly/annual passes or for those on Free Travel Passes. Also, the person sitting in the seat is not obliged to move if it is less than 20 minutes before departure time - a condition that makes the booking of tickets almost completely pointless.

While higher rate taxpayers get a benefit from the state, contrary to popular myth, Irish Rail hardly discount passes at all. On Sligo, a 5 day per week commuter gets about a 20% discount on a monthly TaxSaver.

The solution is obvious - confine bookings to a small number of carriages proportional to the percentage of tickets sold as booking. Also, allowing an online ticket purchase without a seat reservation would help a lot since many people book with then intention of using the flexible ticket to take a different train.

Another possibility would be to allow free seat reservations for those possessing paid passes. I can't understand why you get a free reservation you don't want with an online ticket yet you have to pay for it when you've already paid handsomely for a pass. Paying the seat reservation fee for a passholder more than eliminates the discount received for the bulk purchase of a year's travel.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Jem72 wrote: »

Not everyone has the option of booking online. It doesn't work for those on monthly/annual passes or for those on Free Travel Passes.

Yeh it does, for the latter anyway which I have booked for my parents. You book online and get a reserved seat then tick a box that says free travel. Theres a booking fee (5€) and you get a number to print out the tickets with seats attached.

Emme

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They do already. It will say reserved from x station. If there is a name there when for example you leave Heuston it means they have not turned up or sat elsewhere.

I have got on at Carlow several mornings and passed reserved seats. Names only, nothing about being reserved from Carlow.

Jem72

The message changes to just the passenger name when the train arrives at the station where the reservation starts.

But it's more likely that you're looking at seats where the person who made the reservation preferred to sit elsewhere. It's also quite possible that the wrong train info has been loaded and you're looking at the bookings for an entirely different service.

facehugger99

Del2005 wrote: »

According to the terms of the allocated seat ticket you have to be in the seat 20 minutes before departure. So if someone is sitting in a seat its either the person who reserved it or not.

Which is obviously impossible if you're not getting on at the departure station.

techdiver

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Yeh it does, for the latter anyway which I have booked for my parents. You book online and get a reserved seat then tick a box that says free travel. Theres a booking fee (5€) and you get a number to print out the tickets with seats attached.

So your solution is for everyone who commutes daily to pay another €5 per day!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

coylemj wrote: »

How about they let you book a ticket online but let you decline an allocated seat? I can do without the hassle of asking someone to get out of a seat that has been allocated to me. But neither do I want a seat left empty because my name is above it and I couldn't be bothered looking for it.

If the seat is left empty after leaving the station, someone can sit in it because they know that person it was allocated to didn’t use it. If it’s booked at a station along the line, the display will say that.

Del2005 wrote: »

According to the terms of the allocated seat ticket you have to be in the seat 20 minutes before departure. So if someone is sitting in a seat its either the person who reserved it or not.

What they could do is say the seat is reserved from X station for Y, so that you can know if the seat is free to use or not. This can be done on the train with zero need for an app or wedsite. IIRC I saw that on a train in England and took a seat reserved after the station we were getting off.

They do that already! I’ve seen the display saying ‘Seat booked from X station’.

nozzferrahhtoo

I have travelled in Irish Rail a few times and never seen the system fail. I guess either I am lucky or other people are unlucky, or a mix of the two. But so far so good!

That said, putting the passengers name or booking number on the seats always struck me as a bit weird. Who needs that information?

Here in Germany what is displayed over the seats is the FROM and TO stations for which the next reservation exists.

That way you can know that while the seat has a reservation it might be after the journey you intend to make so you can happily sit there. Or you can select the seat that will allow you to sit for the greater proportion of your journey.

The pricing of the booking is ridiculous here however. It is nearly 5 euro regardless of journey length or type. So if I reserve a seat on a single train for 20 minutes between two stops I pay the same as I would if I booked a 7 hour journey involving reserved seats on 5 different trains.

facehugger99

Got a day return last week and on the way up there was no booking info above my seat - there was on old guy sitting in my seat that I wasn't going to ask to move so I found another seat.

On the return trip my name was displayed.

It's a typically Irish (shur it'll be grand) type of system.

nozzferrahhtoo

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve noticed that often there are displays saying someone has booked a seat but that person never arrives

Hands up I am guilty of that here in Germany.

I am currently in a new job where for the first months I work away from home, so the company pay my train for the 4 hour journey each way.

My train there on Monday is ok, but my train home on Friday I can travel at 1730 but sometimes I can get out for the 1530.

So I book a ticket and seat on the 1730, then for 5 euro more I book a seat on the 1530. So every Friday at least one train has a seat booked by me, for which I never arrive.

There is no way for me to cancel one when I know I am going to use the other. If there was, I would use it.

The Rail company here deal with it merely by leaving the reservation above the seat until 5 minutes after the train leaves the station where the reservation begins. So 5 minutes after me not showing up, the seat appears as available again whether I am sitting in it or not.

Hardcharger

Del.Monte wrote: »

How so if you have to fight with someone who refuses to move? Do you ask the Gourmet Rail operative, if there's a trolley, to evict the person sitting in your seat? :rolleyes:

It lean in look them directly in the eye and whisper while pointing "Last night when you were sleeping I was looking at your neck and I was that close to slicing it." After a suitable pause I whisper "Get up out of my seat now." A wink and a smile and a friendly clap on the back.

claregal1

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Yeh it does, for the latter anyway which I have booked for my parents. You book online and get a reserved seat then tick a box that says free travel. Theres a booking fee (5€) and you get a number to print out the tickets with seats attached.

But we are'nt getting free travel if we are on a monthly or annual pass ?? We still pay from out salary for the pass .

If I was getting free travel , I would happily pay 5 euro a seat ....

Having saying that - I do the Limerick to Dublin commmute and have never had an issue with booking names .

RedRochey

Not only do they show "Seat booked from X" you can also reserve that sear yourself until station X, so for example a few weeks ago there was an old man who had reserved a seat from Dublin to Newbridge and then someone got on in Newbridge who had that same seat reserved until Cork, that part of the system works perfectly.

Another problem is the majority of people don't understand how the reservations work, they wouldn't even see that there is a name above a seat and just sit there.

The main thing that annoys me are people who get on at the bottom of the carriage but then proceed to walk back against the flow of people creating a huge mess of people trying to squeeze past each other with big bags

FishOnABike

ectoraige wrote: »

Are flexible tickets part of the problem?

You can book a seat on, say, a 5pm train but travel on the 4pm train instead. Your ticket will still have the reserved seat no. printed on it so you could boot people from the seat if they don't notice that it's for a different time.

Meanwhile, on the 5pm train your seat is left empty with your name over it.

There doesn't seem to be a mechanism to handle this, is there?

Most stations I've used recently (not too many admittedly) have automatic turnstiles you have to use your ticket to get through.

Would it be beyond people's imagination to design a system that links seat bookings and ticket validation?

If I reserve a seat on the five o'clock train on a flexible or semi flexible ticket and travel on the four o'clock train it should be possible to recognise my ticket has been used at the gate on an earlier train and cancel my reserved seat on the five o'clock train. At peak times it could also free that five o'clock seat for someone else to book, allowing an extra sale + extra revenue for the operator.

Similarly if I have reserved a seat on the five o'clock train but end up travelling on a later train it should be possible to unreserved my seat if my ticket has not been validated by the time the five o'clock train leaves the station.

If flexible / semi-flexible tickets with reserved seating are available or there is any attempt to match ticket sales to capacity a system that does not do the above us seriously wanting.

TheShow

FishOnABike wrote: »

Most stations I've used recently (not too many admittedly) have automatic turnstiles you have to use your ticket to get through.

Would it be beyond people's imagination to design a system that links seat bookings and ticket validation?

If I reserve a seat on the five o'clock train on a flexible or semi flexible ticket and travel on the four o'clock train it should be possible to recognise my ticket has been used at the gate on an earlier train and cancel my reserved seat on the five o'clock train. At peak times it could also free that five o'clock seat for someone else to book, allowing an extra sale + extra revenue for the operator.

Similarly if I have reserved a seat on the five o'clock train but end up travelling on a later train it should be possible to unreserved my seat if my ticket has not been validated by the time the five o'clock train leaves the station.

If flexible / semi-flexible tickets with reserved seating are available or there is any attempt to match ticket sales to capacity a system that does not do the above us seriously wanting.

That's a far too sensible approach, this is Irish Rail we are taking about.

whisky_galore

StockTwat29 wrote: »

Not only do they show "Seat booked from X" you can also reserve that sear yourself until station X, so for example a few weeks ago there was an old man who had reserved a seat from Dublin to Newbridge and then someone got on in Newbridge who had that same seat reserved until Cork, that part of the system works perfectly.

Another problem is the majority of people don't understand how the reservations work, they wouldn't even see that there is a name above a seat and just sit there.

The main thing that annoys me are people who get on at the bottom of the carriage but then proceed to walk back against the flow of people creating a huge mess of people trying to squeeze past each other with big bags

Paddy is used to booking a seat on a flight but can't get his head around a reserved seat on a train. It's the norm to book ahead for a train or long distance bus journey in nearly every other country, here it's "arra shur I'll just turn up and chance it" for some reason.

It's not hard, it doesn't need a fancy display or staff putting notes on seats, your seat has a number and your ticket has a corresponding number. No reservation, no travel, tough, get the next train.

RedRochey

whisky_galore wrote: »

Paddy is used to booking a seat on a flight but can't get his head around a reserved seat on a train. It's the norm to book ahead for a train or long distance bus journey in nearly every other country, here it's "arra shur I'll just turn up and chance it" for some reason.

It's not hard, it doesn't need a fancy display or staff putting notes on seats, your seat has a number and your ticket has a corresponding number. No reservation, no travel, tough, get the next train.

One problem with that is a lot of people have a free travel card so they don't need to book tickets

Irish Rail also don't help themselves with only allowing people on the train 10 minutes before it leaves, people end up rushing then and just sitting anywhere

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-customers-face-two-more-years-of-overcrowding-1.3994479

Not going to call myself an expert but how does it take so long to get extra trains? This problem has been around for years

Franz Von Peppercorn II

whisky_galore wrote: »

Paddy is used to booking a seat on a flight but can't get his head around a reserved seat on a train. It's the norm to book ahead for a train or long distance bus journey in nearly every other country, here it's "arra shur I'll just turn up and chance it" for some reason.

It's not hard, it doesn't need a fancy display or staff putting notes on seats, your seat has a number and your ticket has a corresponding number. No reservation, no travel, tough, get the next train.

People rock up to train stations to buy a ticket all over the world. It’s one of the differences between trains and planes.

Irish rail’s system isn’t perfect but there are as bad or worse elsewhere. The British system is cards on the backs of seats.

Edit:

At least Great Western is.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

"FishOnABike wrote: »

If I reserve a seat on the five o'clock train on a flexible or semi flexible ticket and travel on the four o'clock train it should be possible to recognise my ticket has been used at the gate on an earlier train and cancel my reserved seat on the five o'clock train. At peak times it could also free that five o'clock seat for someone else to book, allowing an extra sale + extra revenue for the operator.

Similarly if I have reserved a seat on the five o'clock train but end up travelling on a later train it should be possible to unreserved my seat if my ticket has not been validated by the time the five o'clock train leaves the stati
.

Here’s another difference - in many countries your booked seat is never flexible although it might be refundable.

Del.Monte

Being able to 'rock up' at the last minute and catch a train without pre-booking is one of the few remaining advantages offered by rail travel.

whisky_galore

StockTwat29 wrote: »

One problem with that is a lot of people have a free travel card so they don't need to book tickets

Irish Rail also don't help themselves with only allowing people on the train 10 minutes before it leaves, people end up rushing then and just sitting anywhere

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-customers-face-two-more-years-of-overcrowding-1.3994479

Not going to call myself an expert but how does it take so long to get extra trains? This problem has been around for years

Ideally they should have to make a reservation like everyone else, they're getting it free after all, it won't kill them. Then everyone gets a seat.

Otherwise it's like India, without the hanging off or getting on the roof of course.