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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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janfebmar

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean mid 20s who have honours Bachelors degrees as a minimum, will never earn as much as those in their 40s, will never afford a "nice" house, will be relatively poorer than the previous generation no matter what?

And, most importantly for this thread, have been forced to live outside the city and away from the much heralded public transport?

Yeah they have had it easy

A lot of the generation in their mid late twenties do things their parents or grandparents never did, like spend fortunes on weddings (see the cost of an average wedding now), foreign travel, 3 day hen and stag parties, takeaway coffees, you name it. When my parents got married they had a 3 day honeymoon in Ireland. They lived in a small house for many years, and worked their way up. The world owes nobody a high standard of living, you have to work for it. If you want to live in the city you can get an old house and do it up in time, but I suppose that would not be grand enough for you.

MrDerp

janfebmar wrote: »

A lot of the generation in their mid late twenties do things their parents or grandparents never did, like spend fortunes on weddings (see the cost of an average wedding now), foreign travel, 3 day hen and stag parties, takeaway coffees, you name it. When my parents got married they had a 3 day honeymoon in Ireland. They lived in a small house for many years, and worked their way up. The world owes nobody a high standard of living, you have to work for it. If you want to live in the city you can get an old house and do it up in time, but I suppose that would not be grand enough for you.

There’s a strange idea alright that our parents generation walked into wealth. True, they appear to have nice houses in nice areas but those were the new estates of yesteryear, and some would have been seen as well outside of town, and they broke their backs to pay for them with double digit interest rates back in the day.

That’s why there’s so many fixer uppers about, houses with strong values but people on ordinary incomes living in them and unable to invest in improvements in retirement or late career.

If people can’t afford to live in a city they need to re-evaluate their career choices.

The economy has moved on, basic manufacturing and other low skilled labour-intensive jobs are no longer competitive against jobs in tech/pharma companies, and contact centre stuff never will be. Fine for basic subsistence, but you need another plan because there will never be jobs parachuted in for low skilled office/manual work again which give you the income for a 3 bed semi in an upmarket suburb.

The ship has sailed, and there’s no going back. A good rule of thumb is to think about how your work scales. If you’re on an assembly line, you can only work faster and longer to increase productivity and your value. If your an engineer you can speed up the process on 100 assembly lines and your contribution scales. If you answer phones for a living you can only answer more calls or stay late. If you find a process improvement to get more customers to self help online you save on human effort and get rewarded.

Industry is working constantly to drive better and quicker outcomes for customers. The net result is that basic human effort is driven out our automated, leaving only high value effort and investment in scale/automation. A generation ago stuff was outsourced and offshored to find cheaper human labour, now that labour is being removed altogether where possible.

There’s a reason you hear so much about the living wage, because the value of basic labour has fallen below it. As a society we need to top up these wages through social transfers, and we do that to an extent but have more to do. But if you’re near that point, you cannot expect to live like your parents did doing similar work.

[Deleted User]

janfebmar wrote: »

A lot of the generation in their mid late twenties do things their parents or grandparents never did, like spend fortunes on weddings (see the cost of an average wedding now), foreign travel, 3 day hen and stag parties, takeaway coffees, you name it. When my parents got married they had a 3 day honeymoon in Ireland. They lived in a small house for many years, and worked their way up. The world owes nobody a high standard of living, you have to work for it. If you want to live in the city you can get an old house and do it up in time, but I suppose that would not be grand enough for you.

I'm sorry but you think that 20's people are living in big houses? They are not even able to buy these "small houses" you mention.
Average wedding age is in the 30's now and weddings cost is often driven by parents wanting to invite half the village (and generally they are paying into it to cover that)
I would imagine that the level of 3 days stag/hens in a very small percentage and being plucked out of the air, by you, disingenuously.
Foreign travel often costs less that staying in Ireland (I've been looking at a break myself and can easily confirm that)
Honeymoon? A once in a lifetime spend which, as above, is cheaper to leave the country.

And coffee? Christ on a bike, you think that is what is crippling 20 year olds today? They also spend less on alcohol that older did, relative to income.

Other than you seeming to hate weddings (people in their 30s) you state that no one is owed a high standard of living?
Yet you ignore the fact that Ireland has huge number of tech/science degree holders who have spent 4-5 years working towards that.

Your grandparents were offered jobs for life after intercert
Leaving cert and they were the manager never mind college

Nearly all of what effects 20 year olds can be traced directly back to this thread and development of housing.
The government is continuing to ignore the fact that they are the people who should be building housing stock and not competing with young people for a privately built property.

No amount of skinny latte, Ryanair flights to Europe, or one of spends on a wedding are going to cover the fact that they are far worse off than their equivalent of even 1999

MrDerp

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry but you think that 20's people are living in big houses? They are not even able to buy these "small houses" you mention.
Average wedding age is in the 30's now and weddings cost is often driven by parents wanting to invite half the village (and generally they are paying into it to cover that)
I would imagine that the level of 3 days stag/hens in a very small percentage and being plucked out of the air, by you, disingenuously.
Foreign travel often costs less that staying in Ireland (I've been looking at a break myself and can easily confirm that)
Honeymoon? A once in a lifetime spend which, as above, is cheaper to leave the country.

And coffee? Christ on a bike, you think that is what is crippling 20 year olds today? They also spend less on alcohol that older did, relative to income.

Other than you seeming to hate weddings (people in their 30s) you state that no one is owed a high standard of living?
Yet you ignore the fact that Ireland has huge number of tech/science degree holders who have spent 4-5 years working towards that.

Your grandparents were offered jobs for life after intercert
Leaving cert and they were the manager never mind college

Nearly all of what effects 20 year olds can be traced directly back to this thread and development of housing.
The government is continuing to ignore the fact that they are the people who should be building housing stock and not competing with young people for a privately built property.

No amount of skinny latte, Ryanair flights to Europe, or one of spends on a wedding are going to cover the fact that they are far worse off than their equivalent of even 1999

Science/tech degree holders with 4-5 years experience are barely leaving entry level, and I would not expect them to be able to buy in affluent areas. How much could you even have saved at that point?

[Deleted User]

MrDerp wrote: »

Science/tech degree holders with 4-5 years experience are barely leaving entry level, and I would not expect them to be able to buy in affluent areas. How much could you even have saved at that point?

I'm referring to the point which the poster asserts, that people in their 20s work for nothing. They are not doing the same work as parents. They have degrees in high demand areas but that means that they're entering markets up to ten years later at basic wage, meaning most are into 30s before have any real purchasing power.
Far smarter people than me have shown that while they have it easier on the disposable goods their long term earning vs costs is far worse than previous generations.

And government policy of forcing people out to "commuter towns" over an hour out, rather than promote development in the cities is a huge part of that.

Everyone complaining about the car, ask yourself what's caused this? It's not people living in the city, in the main. It's the 20 to mid 30s highly educated professionals forced to hinterland living.

snotboogie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm referring to the point which the poster asserts, that people in their 20s work for nothing. They are not doing the same work as parents. They have degrees in high demand areas but that means that they're entering markets up to ten years later at basic wage, meaning most are into 30s before have any real purchasing power.
Far smarter people than me have shown that while they have it easier on the disposable goods their long term earning vs costs is far worse than previous generations.

And government policy of forcing people out to "commuter towns" over an hour out, rather than promote development in the cities is a huge part of that.

Everyone complaining about the car, ask yourself what's caused this? It's not people living in the city, in the main. It's the 20 to mid 30s highly educated professionals forced to hinterland living.

Cork may actually start to buck the trend on this, there are five sites for high density accommodation in the docklands; Horgans Quay, Port of Cork, Carey’s Tools, the Marquee and Anderson Quay. We are starting to see the shift away from office and towards high density apartments now. I’d guess that Horgans Quay will be the shortest of these schemes. 3,000+ apartments would have a huge impact on a city the size of Cork.

Brussels Sprout

snotboogie wrote: »

Cork may actually start to buck the trend on this, there are five sites for high density accommodation in the docklands; Horgans Quay, Port of Cork, Carey’s Tools, the Marquee and Anderson Quay. We are starting to see the shift away from office and towards high density apartments now.

Have plans been announced for apartments to be built in any of these locations? Any planning permissions sought?

snotboogie

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Have plans been announced for apartments to be built in any of these locations? Any planning permissions sought?

Just at Horgans Quay. I’d expect Carey’s Tools and Port of Cork to go to planning before the end of the year. The other two are a bit further off but both developers have announced intentions to build apartments at those locations.

AugustusMinimus

What height are we talking. 7 stories for Carey’s Tools site?

snotboogie

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What height are we talking. 7 stories for Carey’s Tools site?

There are only just over 200 apartments in the Elysian on a bigger site. I’d be absolutely shocked if JCD put in for something shorter than that. I’d imagine they’ll roll straight from Penrose Dock over to the Carey’s site so I’d expect to see fast track planning late this year. OCP seem far more tentative so I don’t think we’ll see planning in 2019 but I’d picture it being the same story for height on Anderson Quay, taller than the Elysian due to the relatively small site. I haven’t a clue what Glenveagh will do on the Marquee but they don’t seem to be in any rush, I think they may even finish their suburban developments in Douglas and Blackrock first and see how JCD and BAM get on in the docklands with their apartments. Glenveagh still don’t have planning for the largest section of the Maryborough site, despite starting construction on the smaller section last month. Maybe we’ll see something interesting there? Anyway the shift has clearly started from office to apartments.

AugustusMinimus

snotboogie wrote: »

There are only just over 200 apartments in the Elysian on a bigger site. I’d be absolutely shocked if JCD put in for something shorter than that. I’d imagine they’ll roll straight from Penrose Dock over to the Carey’s site so I’d expect to see fast track planning late this year. OCP seem far more tentative so I don’t think we’ll see planning in 2019 but I’d picture it being the same story for height on Anderson Quay, taller than the Elysian due to the relatively small site. I haven’t a clue what Glenveagh will do on the Marquee but they don’t seem to be in any rush, I think they may even finish their suburban developments in Douglas and Blackrock first and see how JCD and BAM get on in the docklands with their apartments. Glenveagh still don’t have planning for the largest section of the Maryborough site, despite starting construction on the smaller section last month. Maybe we’ll see something interesting there? Anyway the shift has clearly started from office to apartments.

Was thinking that the south quays would be a gradual development from city side to Blackrock. Sounds like it could be haphazard.

Shedite27

MrDerp wrote: »

There’s a strange idea alright that our parents generation walked into wealth. True, they appear to have nice houses in nice areas but those were the new estates of yesteryear, and some would have been seen as well outside of town, and they broke their backs to pay for them with double digit interest rates back in the day.

Back in 1980 people spent on average 7% of their income on housing. Today it's 25%

Double digit interest rate or not, they were far more affordable

cgcsb

MrDerp wrote: »

I’m pro public transport but it’s naive to pretend people won’t drive because of the lack of spaces. Every new building should have some limited underground parking and not pretend like it won’t push the pressure elsewhere.

More parking= more cars, that's a flat fact.

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

More parking= more cars, that's a flat fact.

That's true, but there's no point in thinking that this new development right beside the large train station car park (one of the lowest parking costs in town) is going to have more cycle commuters by virtue of its lack of spaces. I fully expect train users to be negatively affected here.
That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if big Park&Rides on the outskirts were already developed (Dunkettle, Blackpool, Blarney) but there isn't even a date for these yet.

And meanwhile, we're actively trying to stop cyclists commuting in to town from the East, with the newly finished anti-cycling infrastructure at Tivoli and the proposed shambolic Dunkettle interchange detour.

Brussels Sprout

snotboogie wrote: »

Anyway the shift has clearly started from office to apartments.

I hope this is true

Markcheese

Shedite27 wrote: »

Back in 1980 people spent on average 7% of their income on housing. Today it's 25%

Double digit interest rate or not, they were far more affordable

Averages are a funny thing, who actually spent 7% then, and whos spending 25% now..
And what was built in the 70s 80s, could be thrown up cheaply now..( But wouldn't be allowed or wanted)
Plus what was 30-45 mins from the city then, can bé a lot closer Now...
(I remember being told of my dad being slagged about moving ALL the way out to ballincolig, Shure that's in the stix..)

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

Averages are a funny thing, who actually spent 7% then, and whos spending 25% now..
And what was built in the 70s 80s, could be thrown up cheaply now..( But wouldn't be allowed or wanted)
Plus what was 30-45 mins from the city then, can bé a lot closer Now...
(I remember being told of my dad being slagged about moving ALL the way out to ballincolig, Shure that's in the stix..)

In saying that, land and site values for residential is way OTT, if a basic residential house or appartment can't be afforded by a " regular" working family and still leave a developers profit (orhe just won't build) there's something up....

There is a chance with the North and south docklands to provide housing built around public transport spines, in the city... But not if everything is top end offices and super luxury appartments.... And not if they don't get public transport working efficiently (bus Éireann)

who_me

snotboogie wrote: »

Just at Horgans Quay. I’d expect Carey’s Tools and Port of Cork to go to planning before the end of the year. The other two are a bit further off but both developers have announced intentions to build apartments at those locations.

Not exactly in the locations above, but planning has also been granted for a 6 and 10 floor apartment development on Victoria Rd. immediately next to Navigation Square, admittedly with just 19 apartments.

Unfortunately one of the biggest / highest-profile residential developments in the city (Mahon Point tower) seems to have faded into non-existence.

ScrubsfanChris

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What height are we talking. 7 stories for Carey’s Tools site?

Expect something a lot grander

Markcheese

Another site in being, ready to go back for a change in planning,(before the existing expires) and hopefully be sold on to continue the game of property pass the parcel...
Any chance they could level rates on sites with planning permission...? To discourage hoarding..? Base it on the development value, and a huge claw back when the development is finished /sold, if the value was is under declared while waiting..

who_me

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Expect something a lot grander

I'm confused, is that the "wishful thinking" smiley or the "insider knowledge" smiley? I'm always getting those confused, but I really want it to be the latter.

[Deleted User]

Markcheese wrote: »

Another site in being, ready to go back for a change in planning,(before the existing expires) and hopefully be sold on to continue the game of property pass the parcel...
Any chance they could level rates on sites with planning permission...? To discourage hoarding..? Base it on the development value, and a huge claw back when the development is finished /sold, if the value was is under declared while waiting..

Yeah that would be the smart option. Been talked about since 2007, so will never happen

snotboogie

Markcheese wrote: »

Another site in being, ready to go back for a change in planning,(before the existing expires) and hopefully be sold on to continue the game of property pass the parcel...
Any chance they could level rates on sites with planning permission...? To discourage hoarding..? Base it on the development value, and a huge claw back when the development is finished /sold, if the value was is under declared while waiting..

Which site is that?

calnand

Just saw that there are plans to turn the old tourist office and Brittany ferries office on Grand Parade to a 284 bed hostel.

snotboogie

calnand wrote: »

Just saw that there are plans to turn the old tourist office and Brittany ferries office on Grand Parade to a 284 bed hostel.

New 284-bed hostel planned for the centre of Cork

the beer revolu

cgcsb wrote: »

More parking= more cars, that's a flat fact.

I know someone who worked at the airport business park and drove from Carrigaline. They've been moved to one of the new office developments in town with limited parking. She now gets the bus.
I have no doubt that if she had gotten a lotteried parking space, she'd be driving.

who_me

snotboogie wrote: »

New 284-bed hostel planned for the centre of Cork

Can't comment on the suitability of the building, but this is fantastic news. It's a great location for visitors to explore the city from, and it's a lot people in the city centre, spending their spondulas.

Other than the Brewery Quarter student apartments, there's been very little new accommodation in the city centre for a loooong time.

(updated the hotel accommodation thread too).

[Deleted User]

the beer revolu wrote: »

I know someone who worked at the airport business park and drove from Carrigaline. They've been moved to one of the new office developments in town with limited parking. She now gets the bus.
I have no doubt that if she had gotten a lotteried parking space, she'd be driving.

I live in Rathcormac and worked in airport business park. I drove.
I now work up in St. Luke's with no parking space allocated. I still drive because no matter where I live/work I have to drop my kids off to my parents every morning.

Some people will always need a car.

I used to live in Tallaght and work in James's Street and loved getting the LUAS each morning. Was an extra 35 minutes (each way) just to read a book and prepare/recharge. It was great, so I am FAR from anti-public or pro-car but council should not be preventing a <1:10 level of parking, especially without proper public transport hubs already in place. It's a cart before the horse attitude. Invest in the infrastructure and THEN censure people/developers

PS: I cycled that Tallaght/James's route a few times but the "Cycle lanes" on Greenhills Road? Insanity. They took a 2 lane road which, at points, literally had just enough room for two vehicles oncoming and threw cycle lanes into the lanes.

kub

the beer revolu wrote: »

I know someone who worked at the airport business park and drove from Carrigaline. They've been moved to one of the new office developments in town with limited parking. She now gets the bus.
I have no doubt that if she had gotten a lotteried parking space, she'd be driving.

That she most certainly would, she is very lucky to be on what is probably one of the best bus routes in the country though.

the beer revolu

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some people will always need a car.

True.
But many don't/won't.
And this group will, hopefully, be increasing all the time.
However, if we keep providing parking for workers, people will continue to drive. People love their cars.