Catholic Ireland dead? Mod Warning in Post #563

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Did the GAA cover up and lie about it and move the perpetrators to another club to carry out the same deeds again on a fresh bunch of children? Did the GAA neglect and bury dead children in a septic tank?

They might have done. They could be members of the Catholic Church and members of the GAA, so the same fallacious association would apply to both organisations.

There’s no difference there. It’s still a ridiculous association to make.

Mrsmum wrote: »

But say you were involved or had children involved in the GAA or any other sporting organisation. As we know there has been plenty child sexual abuse in many of these organisations. If a person doesn't completely opt out then, does that mean by supporting the GAA, they support child abuse. Not in my book.

Did the GAA cover up and lie about it and move the perpetrators to another club to carry out the same deeds again on a fresh bunch of children? Did the GAA neglect and bury dead children in a septic tank?
There's a bit of a difference there

Grey Wind wrote: »

It's stupid because you can't help being Irish or a man, and those categories are insanely broad. People choose to support an organisation guilty of the abhorrent things the Catholic Church has done - that's where the problem is.

You’re missing the point as to why the association is fallacious. I wouldn’t associate anyone who is innocent with someone else who has done wrong on the basis that they have characteristics in common. That’s what guilt by association is. You’re implying by the criteria you are using that someone supports the wrongdoings of others, solely by virtue of the fact that they have one thing in common.

Have you considered at all that being Catholic has nothing to do with any wrongdoing? In the same way as being a man has nothing to do with any wrongdoing committed by other men, or being Irish has nothing to do with wrongdoing committed by other people who are Irish?

The exercise is pointless anyway because people aren’t actually taking it seriously. It’s as easy as the current movement of morally superior types demonising anyone who disagrees with their ideology - accuse anyone who disagrees with them of immoral behaviour, or associate them with someone who has committed immoral behaviour on the basis that they are meat-eaters. It’s a fallacy of association.

In the same way, recent examples include attacks by Tusla on the Scouts, it’s an attempt to discredit the work of the Scouts - there were people who did use their authority within the Scouts to commit child abuse, but the Scouts who didn’t shouldn’t suffer for the crimes of the few who did. Same with the GAA - there are a minority of people within the organisation who used their authority to commit child abuse. It shouldn’t mean that the whole organisation or those who are members of the organisation should be accused of supporting child abuse.

The vast majority of people within the organisation whether it be the Church, the Scouts or the GAA are equally as horrified as anyone else that there are people within their own organisation who would abuse children, because that’s not why they associate themselves with the organisation, contrary to yours and other people’s beliefs.

Grey Wind wrote: »

It's stupid because you can't help being Irish or a man, and those categories are insanely broad. People choose to support an organisation guilty of the abhorrent things the Catholic Church has done - that's where the problem is.

But say you were involved or had children involved in the GAA or any other sporting organisation. As we know there has been plenty child sexual abuse in many of these organisations. If a person doesn't completely opt out then, does that mean by supporting the GAA, they support child abuse. Not in my book.

Timberrrrrrrr

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

In my secondary (an evil Catholic school) we are learning about different faiths.

Fixed your post so that it makes more sense.

Grey Wind

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It is, isn’t it?

It’s exactly the same level of stupidity you engaged to try and make your point about the association you make between ordinary members of the Roman Catholic Church and people who have raped, murdered and abused children. I could also have said if you’re Irish you support the abuse, rape and murder of children. If you’re a man? Yup - guilty. Any other characteristics I can draw associations between you and people who abuse, rape and murder children makes you as guilty as them. Should be ashamed of yourself, yada yada :rolleyes:

Or, you could just acknowledge you were talking complete bollocks because your point just doesn’t make any sense.

It's stupid because you can't help being Irish or a man, and those categories are insanely broad. People choose to support an organisation guilty of the abhorrent things the Catholic Church has done - that's where the problem is.

The high horse brigade wrote: »

What let a 5 year old decide of he/she wasn't to study religion?

If some politicians in Ireland had their way, 5 year olds would be taught without their parents consent that they can decide their own sex.

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not religious but I don't agree with that.
If you don't like it take your kids out of the school.
Or maybe let your kids decide for themselves.

What let a 5 year old decide of he/she wasn't to study religion?

uptherebels

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

Sad how Irish people are brainwashed into hating their own faith and culture.

Whatever. Enjoy your cold, lonely athetism. I'll enjoy the sense of community and belonging my faith gives me.

My local church is packed every Sunday btw. Try not to seethe too much :

Own faith and culture? Last time I checked being Irish had no pre requisite of adhering to any faith nor a culture defined by faith. Your local church must be the exception or has a very small capacity.

mickoneill31

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

Not my problem.

'Guys I sent my kids to the Islamic school and they're LEARNING ABOUT ISLAM!! WTF??!

The ignorance on display here knows no bounds.

It would be more accurate to compare against.

"Guys I've only got Muslim schools provided in my area".

Other idiotic posters have suggested if it's a problem that people should home school. What planet are they on?

The high horse brigade wrote: »

If you're going to teach a religion teach them all, don't just focus on one

The whole point of religious ethos schools is that they are focused on providing education to the members of their own religious communities. They’re perfectly entitled to focus on their own religion.

The State certainly can’t say they shouldn’t, in spite of politicians making all sorts of nonsense declarations that they know will distract from other issues such as the failure that was to be the national children’s hospital.

eagle eye

The high horse brigade wrote:

Yes you keep going to your church on Sunday if it makes you feel good but take your religious indoctrination out of our schools and teach religion to your children on Sundays

I'm not religious but I don't agree with that.
If you don't like it take your kids out of the school.
Or maybe let your kids decide for themselves.

goat2

I don't think it has anything to do with religion, More to the point that most people have friends and family members that have gone through divorce, I have a family member that has been through divorce, and know the suffering, we are just shortening the period of suffering faced by people divorcing, and rightly so. it is a tough time for people, most cases are in a miserable state, and need release from the ball and chain sooner

janfebmar

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

In my secondary (an evil Catholic school) we learned about different faiths.

But were indoctrinated in the Catholic faith, by the taxpayer.

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

In my secondary (an evil Catholic school) we learned about different faiths.

Yes secondary schools have improved their ethos greatly. It's the primary schools that need to change

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

Not my problem.

'Guys I sent my kids to the Islamic school and they're LEARNING ABOUT ISLAM!! WTF??!

If you're going to teach a religion teach them all, don't just focus on one

The high horse brigade wrote: »

It's kind of hard when you live in rural Ireland without a choice of schools.

I’m not going to be smart with you, I’m going to genuinely suggest you take that up with the State, because it is whoever is currently in Government is responsible for the fact that you don’t have a choice of schools in rural Ireland in the same way as some people don’t have their choice of forever homes in urban Ireland.

Teaching a religion should be the job of a parent, not the educators

Again not going to be smart with you, but it’s up to the educators what type of education they will provide. It’s not the job of parents to tell educators what type of education they want their children to be provided with if the educators don’t provide that type of education.

Again I would suggest that you’re likely to have more success petitioning Government to have the State provide the type of education you want for your children, than expecting education providers who do not provide the type of education you want for your children, to be forced by Government to provide it.

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

Then homeschool your children if you hate Catholicism that much.

Maybe it's lost on you but some of us have to work for a living

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

If you don't want your children (as if you have any) 'indoctrinated' then don't send them to a school with a Catholic ethos.

It's kind of hard when you live in rural Ireland without a choice of schools. Teaching a religion should be the job of a parent, not the educators

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Yes you keep going to your church on Sunday if it makes you feel good but take your religious indoctrination out of our schools and teach religion to your children on Sundays

They’re not your schools.

Hank Chinaski wrote: »

Sad how Irish people are brainwashed into hating their own faith and culture.

Whatever. Enjoy your cold, lonely athetism. I'll enjoy the sense of community and belonging my faith gives me.

My local church is packed every Sunday btw. Try not to seethe too much :

Yes you keep going to your church on Sunday if it makes you feel good but take your religious indoctrination out of our schools and teach religion to your children on Sundays

eagle eye

Plumbthedepths wrote:

Still epic stupidity on your part, nice to see you're doubling down.

A lot of people disagree with you. I'm not religious and I disagree with you. I'm quite sure that if we had a list if your interests that we'd prove you are a hypocrite.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Still epic stupidity on your part, nice to see you're doubling down.

Given your judgement isn’t all that rational, I’m not surprised you’d say I was doubling down by pointing out the stupidity in your original argument. You think your point was in any way original or clever? It wasn’t. I’ve been hearing that same point made ever since I was a teenager, by other teenagers.

It was always that they associated the abuse, rape and murder of children, everything that was wrong with the world according to them, with anyone who considered themselves to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church. The point of their exercise was of course to try and make innocent people feel guilty for something they hadn’t done. They were attempting to portray themselves as morally superior to everyone else. The very thing they were criticising themselves, they were engaged in it up to their necks - they saw themselves as having the authority to pass judgment upon innocent people who they saw as different to them in some way.

I didn’t pay any heed to those people then, and I’ve already given you enough attention. I couldn’t care less what you think.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It is, isn’t it?

It’s exactly the same level of stupidity you engaged to try and make your point about the association you make between ordinary members of the Roman Catholic Church and people who have raped, murdered and abused children. I could also have said if you’re Irish you support the abuse, rape and murder of children. If you’re a man? Yup - guilty. Any other characteristics I can draw associations between you and people who abuse, rape and murder children makes you as guilty as them. Should be ashamed of yourself, yada yada :rolleyes:

Or, you could just acknowledge you were talking complete bollocks because your point just doesn’t make any sense.

Or say, one had a brother that raised his hand to his wife and the sibling didn't 100% cut his brother plus his brother's family, who did nothing, out of his life, would that also mean the sibling supported domestic violence ?? Far from that simple imo.

Plumbthedepths

One eyed Jack wrote:

Itâ€™s exactly the same level of stupidity you engaged to try and make your point about the association you make between ordinary members of the Roman Catholic Church and people who have raped, murdered and abused children. I could also have said if youâ€™re Irish you support the abuse, rape and murder of children. If youâ€™re a man? Yup - guilty. Any other characteristics I can draw associations between you and people who abuse, rape and murder children makes you as guilty as them. Should be ashamed of yourself, yada yada

Still epic stupidity on your part, nice to see you're doubling down.

Shefwedfan

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That's an epic level of stupidity right there. Well done .

I think you quoted the wrong post. This is the one you should have posted.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Makes sense to me, personally anyone still willing to claim to be a practicing Catholic knowingly supports an organisation that engaged in the abuse ,rape and murder of children.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What difference does it make to you?

None. I'm happy out with it. Other people seem to insist Catholics must be better than the Pope himself but I know you can feel very Catholic yet pick and choose. Because I am one of those.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That's an epic level of stupidity right there. Well done .

It is, isn’t it?

It’s exactly the same level of stupidity you engaged to try and make your point about the association you make between ordinary members of the Roman Catholic Church and people who have raped, murdered and abused children. I could also have said if you’re Irish you support the abuse, rape and murder of children. If you’re a man? Yup - guilty. Any other characteristics I can draw associations between you and people who abuse, rape and murder children makes you as guilty as them. Should be ashamed of yourself, yada yada :rolleyes:

Or, you could just acknowledge you were talking complete bollocks because your point just doesn’t make any sense.