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"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forw

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Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

This is ONLY about the specific episode! No information from any other source but listed below are allowed to be posted but book related information is allowed as well as the lore from the DVDs. Anything relating to interviews or articles directly related to this episode can be posted with a spoiler tag.

The "Next Episode" and any speculation on what may come in the future episodes should be put in the appropriate stickied Season 8 speculation thread; any funny pictures from the episode should be posted in this thread until Wednesday rather than the funny picture thread.

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RickBlaine

Within less than two hours of screentime, Dany went from being one of the show's heroes to being killed as a villain. That is an insanely short timeframe for GoT.

Imagine how better it would have been if Dany's downfall was given as much time to gradually develop over many seasons as Theon or Jaime's redemptions.

Like much of this season, Dany's death felt very rushed. She was a core character since the first episode and her death should have had more impact, but it didn't. I think she needed to face the consequences of her actions, like Littlefinger last season. Jon stabbing her was like if Arya had suddenly cut Littlefinger's throat without any of the preceding dialog. It was just too sudden for such an important character.

A vast majority of this season's problems is due to this (and last) season's reduced runtime. It is crazy to think that this was requested by D+D and not mandated by HBO. Usually it is the network that is pulling the purse strings and forcing creators to amend their story accordingly. The only explanation is that they simply lost interest in the story, perhaps getting distracted by the shiny new Star Wars trilogy being dangled in front of them. For a show where duty is one of the primary themes, it is pretty bloody reckless and selfish of them to abandon their responsibilities like this. Even if they had lost interest, they could still remain as showrunners but hire other writers to finish the show.

It is a shame the Game of Thrones reputation has been tarnished.

meeeeh

IrishAlice wrote: »

I actually though Jon and Sansa would end up together and rule the North together. Assuming cousins is acceptable in the North.

Ewww. They were brought up as siblings...

Anyway Jon never wanted to rule and he doesn't have to now. The ending some want to see for him would be something he'd hate.

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that something like one couple survived in the whole series (Sam and Gilly). I guess dating is hard.

Utopia Parkway

Honestly thought they wrapped it up about as well as they could have. Impossible to keep everyone happy as everyone has a different interpretation on who should live or die and who should sit on the iron throne. Many people won't have wanted Bran to be King or for Jon to be sent back to the Night's Watch. So when it happens it's understandable that some fans are going to be pissed. My only complaint is they really should have made it a full season of 10 episodes with a few longer ones mixed in. The shortened season did them no favours and led to a feeling of everything being rushed to a conclusion. The show is always better when it's given time to breathe.

All a bit sad at the end with all the Stark's going their separate ways possibly to never see each other again. Some of them at least. Which followed the last little bit of classic Thrones humour with Tyrion, Ser Davos, Bronn and Sam, bickering around the table about brothels.

thomond2006

No return from Daario Naharis at all. Pity. I had hoped he would have infiltrated the Golden Company at the time.

Skylinehead

thomond2006 wrote: »

No return from Daario Naharis at all. Pity. I had hoped he would have infiltrated the Golden Company at the time.

They were pretty irrelephant in the end.

kowloon

Deleted User wrote: »

The Ironside Throne

That'll be the spinoff series.

J. Marston

If only they had done season 8 as build-up to and blow off to the battle with the Night King and season 9 as the battle for the throne.

Instead they wedged the lot into 6 episodes.

shrewdness

Just watched it, need some time to process. First impressions are that while it wasn't the best episode you could get, I thought they tied it all together pretty fine in the end. The big, shocking moments have already happened in this season, the finale was always going to be mostly about tieing together the loose ends.

Jon killing Dany didn't come as a great shock at all, I thought maybe it happened a bit quick, but then they needed the majority of the episode to finish up everyone's story. Bran becoming King felt a bit strange at first, but someone else's point of him not wanting to be King would make him a good ruler, makes sense on reflection. Sansa got what she wanted with the North becoming it's own kingdom and her the Queen. Arya went off exploring like she always wanted. It felt like Jon was dealt the harshest hand here, but once he got to Castle Black and seen Tormund and Ghost again, he seemed more at home again. This seems to be where he is most comfortable, and as Tormund says, the "real north" is in him. I wasn't sure what was going on the end there, was that him deserting the nights watch to go further north to live with the wildings, or is he just escorting them?

Sansa telling Edmure to sit down got the biggest laugh of the episode. Interesting to see Bronn and Tyrion back on good terms now the war has ended. From a cutthroat sellsword to Lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin, quite the journey for ol Bronn. Thought Peter Dinklage was excellent throughout, as he has been for the entire show. Quite funny in comparison how Sam says he wasn't mentioned in the Song of Ice and Fire.

While it certainly wasn't the strongest season, I wouldn't be criticising it nearly as strongly as many seem to be. I feel it will age better as a binge watch over a couple of sittings, without the huge expectations there were leading into the final season.

Sad Professor

It was a rather perfunctory final episode in many ways. Just did what it needed to do and not much else. And I'm fine with that. My greatest fear was that this episode would have last minute battles and god knows what else going on in it, but thankfully they didn't make that mistake. If the previous 5 episodes (and most of season 7) were climax, this was mostly denouement. While my preferred ending would have been Dany imprisoning Jon and Tyrion and ruthlessly cementing her rule, I'm happy enough with the ending we got. The real ending was last week's episode, which (unlike many people here) I thought was excellent.

Contrary to those who think they needed another season or two or three to tell the story, I think the biggest mistake they made was splitting what was probably meant to be a single season in half with a 2 year gap between them. I blame HBO rather B&W for this. They love dragging out the final seasons of their shows.

Arbitrary

Drumpot wrote: »

I enjoyed that.

Thought Jons ending was very apt, he belonged with the Wildlings and he actually got exactly what he wanted. (once he realised he Dany had to be killed).

The king of the real north.

peddlelies

Pile of shíte.

Greyworm "It's not enough!!" After Bran appoints Tyrion hand as his punishment. Then it just cuts to another scene and nothing happens?

The Dothraki and unsullied were basically nodding to Jon Snow walking along on the docks after he murdered their queen. They even spent a solid 10 minutes on the stairs part showing how fired up they were, then nothing? After a decade or more of following her, they just accept it and move on? They don't try take the crown/city for themselves, or get revenge? Gee I guess instead they decided to sail somewhere else for whatever reason like nothing had happened.

Season 8 has been truly awful, it has soiled the entire show for me. The writers should hang their heads in shame. Big frown at how Bronn just appears at the end too. I see the IMDB rating is hovering around 5 for that episode, seems about right.

Edit: Forgot this

Tyrion - "Bran will you take the throne?"

Bran - "Why do you think I came?"

Ohhhh - How mysterious!

vetinari

Clareman wrote: »

So Jon starts the show wanting to join the Night Watch which is he able to join then get out of but his punishment is to go back to it? Grey Worm is happy out killing people that fought in another army rather than hold them as prisioners but he's ok keeping the killer of his queen as a priosioner as well as someone else who was sentenced to die.

I can buy this angle. A good portion of the army at Kings Landing were northeners who were loyal to Jon. It would have started an instant battle if Jon was executed without some sort of trial.

I did think the Dothraki and Unsullied got short thrift again from a story telling perspective though. Is it presumed that the Dothraki left with the Unsullied?

GSPfan

One little thing I seen someone mention earlier about Tyrian not being mentioned in the book Sam gives him.
I don’t think this is a spoiler for the books as it’s nothing to do with plot but Tyrian is described in very unflattering terms from a physical appearance in GRRM’s books so I think it was a light hearted attempt to save Tyrians feelings by saying he wasn’t mentioned. It’s also a very meta comment about the book not being finished just like in real life.

Tazzimus

vetinari wrote: »

I can buy this angle. A good portion of the army at Kings Landing were northeners who were loyal to Jon. It would have started an instant battle if Jon was executed without some sort of trial.

I did think the Dothraki and Unsullied got short thrift again from a story telling perspective though. Is it presumed that the Dothraki left with the Unsullied?

Except if you believe Greyworm from episode 4 I think, half the Dothraki and Unsullied survived, that's about 45k troops. The North had about 20k ish I think, Dany definitely had the bigger army of the two.

FunLover18

Nice to see Brienne return the favour and fill in Jaime's entry.

eric hoone

I liked Jon's ending with him going beyond the wall to take his uncle Benjens role it seemed

is_that_so

vetinari wrote: »

I can buy this angle. A good portion of the army at Kings Landing were northeners who were loyal to Jon. It would have started an instant battle if Jon was executed without some sort of trial.

I did think the Dothraki and Unsullied got short thrift again from a story telling perspective though. Is it presumed that the Dothraki left with the Unsullied?

They seemed to be still hanging around as the Unsullied set off on their ship and Jon headed for his.

Lionbacker

I feel quite sad for Dany in all this.
She happened to land in Westeros at the worst possible time, with Winter arriving & the army of the dead marching south beyond the wall. The resulting war in which Jon evetually persuades Dany to help with, direcly results in the deaths of 2 of her dragons, Jorah & Mellisande. Also not to mention Jon's lineage is discovered during all of that.

All this culminated in her descent into madness & ultimately her demise, all without getting to achieve her life's ambition of sitting on the iron throne.
If only the white walkers slept for another 10 years, everything could have worked so much better for her.

MisterAnarchy

Whatever about the faults in that episode and series 8 I must say that the scene with Jon reunited with Ghost brought a tear to my eye .

J. Marston

Lionbacker wrote: »

I feel quite sad for Dany in all this.
She happened to land in Westeros at the worst possible time, with Winter arriving & the army of the dead marching south beyond the wall. The resulting war in which Jon evetually persuades Dany to help with, direcly results in the deaths of 2 of her dragons, Jorah & Mellisande. Also not to mention it is that time where Jon's lineage is discovered.
All this culminated in her descent into madness & ultimately her demise, all without getting to achieve her life's ambition of sitting on the iron throne.
If only the white walkers slept for another 10 years, everything could have worked so much better for her.

The north are a miserable shower.

She brings her dragons, her Unsullied, her khalasar and gives them all the dragonglass from Dragonstone to save them from certain doom and what's her thanks? The cold shoulder from everyone and sass from Sansa.

They win the battle with her armies suffering heavy losses and she loses her closest friend. What's the reaction? "Well done, Jon!"

Fire and blood was right, Dany girl.

shrewdness

Thought Jon's real lineage would have played a bigger part in the end. Seems like that was really just a tool to get Dany to feel a bit more paranoid, and for Jon to question if she is the right leader. But then if he was presumed to be a better leader, as Tyrion and Varys believed, it didn't come to light when all's said and done.

Foxtrol

So that’s it all over. Having slept on it I’m satisfied, which is generally a good sign for a finale. It tied up things, with parts great, others fine, others poor. I learned halfway through Lost to not expect answers to everything and that not everything from earlier in shows will play a part in the endgame and I feel this has helped me to avoid a lot of frustration some are feeling, always seeming worse in shows with fantasy elements.

One thing I really struggle with is the Unsullied and Dothraki holding Jon prisoner post the death of Dany, especially given the new emo Grey Worm. Thought it would have made much more sense for him to escape KL before they notice she is dead and then return with the leaders of the other houses to negotiate for Tyrion and KL. It would make Jon accepting a return to the Wall a bigger ‘punishment’ as part of the peace deal.

After thinking on it I understand more how the Bran and Sansa endings work, but to make it easier they needed a few additional pieces of disagreement from the other heads of the houses. Most of those heads are new to their role and their houses are extremely weak, so an alliance under one very knowledgeable king, that isn’t power-hungry, would be beneficial to all. Also, between her experience, alliances, and how little the north would bring to the table in an alliance, I feel Sansa could have made a much stronger case to be given independence.

During the episode Tyrion much more eloquently restated most of my feelings from the thread for last week’s episode regarding Dany’s turn. I don’t understand how some here are surprised by Jon struggling to kill Dany, he has always been a man of duty along with a man who struggled to hurt the ones he loved.

I want to say the season needed more time, but I fear that time wouldn’t have been spent wisely. The show gave me so much joy, however with the last 2 seasons coming closer to a normal level TV show, with amazing production. I know this understandably leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of some, but I’ll look back on it fondly.

[Deleted User]

And it really didn't make sense for Varys to be so full of contempt, he'd betray her and go for Jon. That's the sort of thing that takes more time.

Foxtrol

J. Marston wrote: »

If only they had done season 8 as build-up to and blow off to the battle with the Night King and season 9 as the battle for the throne.

Instead they wedged the lot into 6 episodes.

Wouldn't have given them that much extra time, but agree that 2 center points in one short season destroyed focus.

Take out the necessary zombie quest from season 7 and have the battle for winterfell as the finale. Do 6 episodes in season 8 dealing with the fallout and KL.

[Deleted User]

I think that the Jon/Dany love story was supposed to be central to the ending/story. They were supposed to be properly in love.
Jon being a Targaryen and having a claim was supposed to sort of tear them apart.
Dany was supposed to be broken hearted that Jon no longer wanted her and turned mad queen.
Jon was probably supposed to be devastated about having to kill her.
I think thats kind of what they were going for.

Unfortunately, I just don't think that any viewer felt any sort of emotion to that love story. Its something that just wasn't developed enough for the viewer to be invested in.

If they had of built the relationship a bit more, gotten married and Jon somehow made her pregnant and then had to kill her, I imagine that would have made for a very sad, emotional ending.

The way it turned out though, I felt nothing. It was like he was just a bit relieved to get rid of his psychotic missus.

Foxtrol

Lionbacker wrote: »

I feel quite sad for Dany in all this.
She happened to land in Westeros at the worst possible time, with Winter arriving & the army of the dead marching south beyond the wall. The resulting war in which Jon evetually persuades Dany to help with, direcly results in the deaths of 2 of her dragons, Jorah & Mellisande. Also not to mention it is that time where Jon's lineage is discovered.
All this culminated in her descent into madness & ultimately her demise, all without getting to achieve her life's ambition of sitting on the iron throne.
If only the white walkers slept for another 10 years, everything could have worked so much better for her.

Sad but it was a demise of her own making. She went from nothing to ruling Slavers Bay in Essos and, despite what her advisers told her, that wasn't enough for her, she wanted what she believed she was entitled to in Westeros.

[Deleted User]

I'm torn. It's so hard for me to be subjective because I love the show so much. Bran as king is ok but it's how it came to be that disappoints me. I had hoped Jon's truth would have been revealed to all and the throne offered to him. When Tyrion was brought before the rulers I really really thought he was going to suggest Jon as king.

Yes he was imprisoned but surely Sansa and the others would have demanded his release. Or I don't know. I don't know how that would have played out. Just that he should have had the opportunity to say no. Also Bran's remark to Tyrion about why he came this far. It was odd. He actually wanted to rule all along? Or did he mean something else.

Sansa is exactly where she should be. As is Arya. Brienne writing Jaime's history was very sad I thought. She loved him so much. Tyrion was amazing. I was delighted when he threw his 'Hand' pin on the ground. It was a real 'fùck you' to Danaerys.

She reminded me of Hitler when addressing her army. The hypocrisy of her words when looking at her actions showed have far she had gone. I mean saying that she liberated a city from a tyrant? Eh what?? How can you want to create a free world if you burn all of the inhabitants. That's not a criticism of the writing more an observation of who she is.

I will go back to the beginning I think just to experience it all again.

meeeeh

I'm speculating but I think there was always intention for 'magic' to disappear from Westeros. Children of Forest are gone, Whitewalkers gone, dragons gone and the end to Targaryen dynasty. It's the end of an era and Jon ending on the throne would be wrong for me.

Anyway I'm glad Dany didn't land on the throne. Even if she didn't go nuts anyone who thinks they have divine right to rule should never rule.

Loafing Oaf

Deleted User wrote: »

Also Bran's remark to Tyrion about why he came this far. It was odd. He actually wanted to rule all along? Or did he mean something else. .

Maybe a sly reference to him knowing everything that's going to happen in advance?

Hercule Poirot

My biggest criticism of this season has been that it was handled so badly that when Dany died it was very meh

She had built herself up from nothing, from being her brother's pawn to being within touching distance of the throne - but due to a combination of piss poor pacing and clueless writing she ends up a nothing character. Maybe nothing character seems a bit harsh but her death was breezed over and made to feel irrelevant when she deserved so much more

GoT will remain one of the best shows I've ever seen with some characters that will live long in the memory: Joffrey, Ramsay, Theon, Davos and Jaime to name a few; but in the end it was rather like a firework - started with great tension and suspense and exploded into brilliance before petering out and fading away