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Everest

wrestlemaniac

Hoping for good news. Missing from the descent shortly after reaching the summit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/trinity-professor-missing-on-everest-after-scaling-summit-1.3894661%3fmode=amp

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[Deleted User]

kurtainsider wrote: »

Perhaps all money collected above and beyond what they want to spend will go directly to Barretstown?

There has been no indication of that in the fundraising request.
Given that the original fundraising pages show they hadn't reached their targets I imagine the money will go to covering the cost of the expedition, towards his mortgage and an amount to charity.

Fotish wrote: »

If you set up a Go Fund Me Page looking for 750,000 euro ,you can expect people to comment and in my opinion you are inviting comment.

What surprised me most ,was the speed that the page was set up, in such at short time, he was only missing a few hours when the page was set up.

I would expect a period of turmoil for a few days and then start to make plans and look for help.

Indecent haste in this case ! How was the figure of 750,000 arrived at ?

I'm sure grief and wanting to do something played a big part but the best time to fundraise was immediately - while it was in the news headlines. If they had waited a few days and it was clearer that there was no hope of finding him alive and only a small chance of recovering the body people would question if their money could be better spent elsewhere.

ToBeFrank123

Wildlife Actor wrote: »

Don't want to distract but on the theme of burials in the mountains, an interesting and poignant story. I'm sure its somewhere online but i read about it in a book so working from memory.

Willi Unsold was the third American to summit everest when he and his partner climbed a new route, the west ridge, the same day the first two Americans climbed it by the south col route. Serious mountaineer. Lost his toes to frostbite in the way down but made it.

He always wanted to climb a sacred Indian mountain called Nanda Devi, but it was closed to climbers for years by the indian govt. Unsoeld had even named his daughter after it.

In the 70s, Nanda Devi was reopened to climbers (briefly) and a team was assembled. By now Devi Unsoeld was 19 or 20 and an accomplished climber for her age. Father and daughter joined the team. The expedition was a mess and there feuds and general bad luck. Anyway, at high altitude, Devi got severe oedema and rapidly deteriorated. She died with her father and her team wrapped her body and left her on the mountain she was named for.

There's no shame in leaving a body on the mountain.

True. But there's also no shame in weighing the risks and benefits. Willi Unsoeld was about as irresponsible as you can get, bringing his daughter up a dangerous mountain like that, particularly when the expedition was a mess. He should have said "feck this, I'm going home" as any responsible parent would have done.

What I am noticing with a lot of these climbers is summit fever and a lack of basic cop on. You don't need to be the world's leading mountaineering expert or even to have climbed a mountain to see that.

There's a fine line between being a "hero" and "irresponsible fool" on places like Everest. And I have little sympathy for people who live on the edge in general.

facehugger99

maxsmum wrote: »

I cannot comprehend how anyone with a 4 year old child took this on, knowing the risk of death and that his body would not be returned to his family if he died.
I just don't get it.
Very, very sad.
How is this ever going to be explained to the child?

It beggars belief that anyone could prioritise a self-indulgent, ego-boost over staying at home and looking after your family. It smacks of incredible selfishness.

In my view, being a hero involves being a good parent and spending time with your kids.

His wife will now have to be the hero in that family, raising kids on her own. It probably won't get you as much kudos down the pub than saying you climbed Mt Everest but it's infinitely more important.

Ardent

Can only assume he unclipped from the line at some point on the way back down- either from hypoxia or to pass another person or group. We'll probably never know.

Wildlife Actor

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

True. But there's also no shame in weighing the risks and benefits. Willi Unsoeld was about as irresponsible as you can get, bringing his daughter up a dangerous mountain like that, particularly when the expedition was a mess. He should have said "feck this, I'm going home" as any responsible parent would have done.

What I am noticing with a lot of these climbers is summit fever and a lack of basic cop on. You don't need to be the world's leading mountaineering expert or even to have climbed a mountain to see that.

There's a fine line between being a "hero" and "irresponsible fool" on places like Everest. And I have little sympathy for people who live on the edge in general.

When i said there's no shame in leaving the bodt on the mountain, the alternative i was referencing was a recovery mission, not avoidingbthe mountain in the first place. That's a different debate and I've posted in that earlier.

You should read a bit more about Willi Unsoeld and his daughter before you draw that conclusion about them. They were real mountaineers so "bringing his daughter up the mountain" mischaracterises the dynamic completely and does a disservice to her. WU wrote a piece about the death afterwards: its a few paragraphs into this link: https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/wild-adventures-known-reflections-jolene-willi-unsoeld

He died himself a couple of years later in an avalanche.

ToBeFrank123

Wildlife Actor wrote: »

When i said there's no shame in leaving the bodt on the mountain, the alternative i was referencing was a recovery mission, not avoidingbthe mountain in the first place. That's a different debate and I've posted in that earlier.

You should read a bit more about Willi Unsoeld and his daughter before you draw that conclusion about them. They were real mountaineers so "bringing his daughter up the mountain" mischaracterises the dynamic completely and does a disservice to her. WU wrote a piece about the death afterwards: its a few paragraphs into this link: https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/wild-adventures-known-reflections-jolene-willi-unsoeld

He died himself a couple of years later in an avalanche.

Fair enough and it is an interesting story. I think these mountaineers get into a bubble where they cannot think straight both before climbing and on the mountain. And someone like Unsoeld and his daughter would rather die on a mountain than live a long life of relative safety. They know the risks and its part of the thrill of climbing. People choose different courses in life and good luck to them.

antix80

He has a young child and wife pregnant with 2nd child.
The trip of a lifetime costs €40,000 to do and there's a 2.2% risk of death.
I see from his sponsor.me page that he and his friend managed to raise €8k for charity.
It's too bad he didn't have a father or brother or someone in his life to say "you're lying to yourself. You're doing this for yourself. It's selfish"
Now his wife has a gofundme that raise €200k with a target of €750k to bring his body home. I don't care how people spend their money but this seems like such a waste of money with a huge risk that one or all of the rescuers could end up dying.

SirGerryAdams

knucklehead6 wrote: »

yes raising 25000 for charity... How selfish of him :rolleyes:

You're probably one of those who looks at suicide victims as selfish as well, aren't you?

And now his family are looking for 750k to search for him. Should have sold cupcakes instead.

LollipopJimmy

Having read through the thread and even read around on a few things it really is hard to know what to think. First off I obviously feel a lot of empathy for the man’s wife who is now a widow with a child to care for with another on the way. Insurance won’t pay out, mortgage protection etc, ‘adventure sports’ are usually excluded from policies. My condolences to his family.

The next part though and I apologise in advance for this, his actions were that of a selfish man, to go ahead on this trip with a decent probability of never returning was insane. His sponsor page, the original one was to pay for the trip – only leftovers would be given to Barretstown. So it was really – pay for me to do this.

Now people are being asked to donate again to mount a ‘rescue/recovery’ mission. At this point the decent thing needs to be done and those who have donated through gofundme should be refunded. If there is a gofundme started to ease the financial burden on his family then grand, donators can choose to donate with eyes wide open.

To hear this ‘hero’ crap, our soldiers killed on peacekeeping missions are heroes, Garda Ciaran Jones who jumped into a swollen river to rescue others and gave his life in the process is a hero, the firefighters who walk into burning buildings day in day out are heros.

This was a man chasing a thrill and lets be honest, there was no real charity element. He raised 8k, Barretstown wouldn’t have seen a cent of that based on what the page says.

jasper100

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fair enough and it is an interesting story. I think these mountaineers get into a bubble where they cannot think straight both before climbing and on the mountain. And someone like Unsoeld and his daughter would rather die on a mountain than live a long life of relative safety. They know the risks and its part of the thrill of climbing. People choose different courses in life and good luck to them.

Was this "Shay" fella even a mountaineer though? He sounds to me more like just a glory hunter with a big ego. Professor he called himself, not the sharpest knife in the drawer to leave a young family to go on a guided walk with such high risks.

Any fool with money can try climb everest. Its not an achievement anymore.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

maxsmum wrote: »

I had no idea of the treacherousness of Everest or of the financial exploitation of the Sherpas. After watching all these documentaries over the weekend I cannot comprehend how anyone with a 4 year old child took this on, knowing the risk of death and that his body would not be returned to his family if he died.
I just don't get it.
Very, very sad.
How is this ever going to be explained to the child?

I know, it’s eye-opening stuff. I can’t believe how clueless some of the wannabe summiters are (I just want to say, I know little about Seamus Lawless and I’m not grouping him in with these people). Just “I’ll arrive here with no previous acclimatisation at high altitude done, let alone climbs at that altitude. Be grand.”

I mean, for the Mexico City Olympics, the athletes had to acclimatise themselves. And that was people in peak condition at a far lower altitude than Everest.

jasper100

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Having read through the thread and even read around on a few things it really is hard to know what to think. First off I obviously feel a lot of empathy for the man’s wife who is now a widow with a child to care for with another on the way. Insurance won’t pay out, mortgage protection etc, ‘adventure sports’ are usually excluded from policies. My condolences to his family.

The next part though and I apologise in advance for this, his actions were that of a selfish man, to go ahead on this trip with a decent probability of never returning was insane. His sponsor page, the original one was to pay for the trip – only leftovers would be given to Barretstown. So it was really – pay for me to do this.

Now people are being asked to donate again to mount a ‘rescue/recovery’ mission. At this point the decent thing needs to be done and those who have donated through gofundme should be refunded. If there is a gofundme started to ease the financial burden on his family then grand, donators can choose to donate with eyes wide open.

To hear this ‘hero’ crap, our soldiers killed on peacekeeping missions are heroes, Garda Ciaran Jones who jumped into a swollen river to rescue others and gave his life in the process is a hero, the firefighters who walk into burning buildings day in day out are heros.

This was a man chasing a thrill and lets be honest, there was no real charity element. He raised 8k, Barretstown wouldn’t have seen a cent of that based on what the page says.

Well said.

"Shay" was a fcuking bellend. Plain and simple.

lazygal

I would be absolutely furious if my husband even thought about doing something as stupid as an adventure dressed up as charity when he has a young family. And then to ask for hundreds of thousands of euro when it goes wrong is even more fury inducing. Can't understand these types of people.

jasper100

So is there anyy update on how the 233k raised so far is being spent?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

In the Sherpa documentary some of the clients are furious when the sherpas go on strike (due to 16 deaths in an avalanche). One of them likens them to terrorists. It's shocking how selfish some of them are.

Previously you see the sherpas make dozens of trips at night while the clients sleep in their tents. Going ahead with gear and oxygen bottles. One particularly dangerous part of the route, the organizer says the clients will do twice. The sherpas will do it 20-30 times.

God, that’s infuriating. “Do what I say, peon! I flung money at you!”.

ToBeFrank123

jasper100 wrote: »

So is there anyy update on how the 233k raised so far is being spent?

Nope. There's definitely a transparency issue though with online fundraising like this. No accounts, no bank account details, etc.

I'd like to see an upfront breakdown of how they plan to spend it, who they are sending it to, are they sending it to some dodgy guy in Nepal or someone reputable. Will all of it leave Ireland or some of it remain here. Do they even know a proper search will take place or the money will just end up in a bank account out there with no hope of retrieval and no search. I think Everest is only accessible in the month of May so it could be another year at least before a proper search is done.

It would be great to see receipts, and so on. We know from other countries that people used fundraised money to spend on mortgage payments and the like.

I have no trouble donating provided its all clear and transparent.

recedite

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

.. Insurance won’t pay out, mortgage protection etc, ‘adventure sports’ are usually excluded from policies. My condolences to his family...

Just on this insurance thing, I think the insurers are being unfairly painted as the bad guys here.
Ordinary travel insurance would not cover a trip to the top of Mt. Everest.
I'd assume there was a special insurance included in the travel package, and it would be reasonable to assume that it would cover the cost of any feasible rescue of a live climber, but not the cost of retrieving a dead body from an inaccessible location.
Mortgage protection, well I'd have thought any mortgage they had would be written off now, but I'm not an expert and obviously I haven't seen the policy.
And even if he had no other private life assurance policy, as someone said earlier..

PokeHerKing wrote: »

750k is quite the lofty target. I'd say his death in service with trinity is somewhere in the region of half a million if they need it.

Again I'm not an expert on university policies and benefits.
But it seems that although the family must be in a very bad place right now, lack of money is probably not going to be their most major problem going forward.

LollipopJimmy

recedite wrote: »

Just on this insurance thing, I think the insurers are being unfairly painted as the bad guys here.
Ordinary travel insurance would not cover a trip to the top of Mt. Everest.
I'd assume there was a special insurance included in the travel package, and it would be reasonable to assume that it would cover the cost of any feasible rescue of a live climber, but not the cost of retrieving a dead body from an inaccessible location.
Mortgage protection, well I'd have thought any mortgage they had would be written off now, but I'm not an expert and obviously I haven't seen the policy.
And even if he had no other private life assurance policy, as someone said earlier..
Again I'm not an expert on university policies and benefits.
But it seems that although the family must be in a very bad place right now, lack of money is probably not going to be their most major problem going forward.

Mortgage protection wouldn't cover something like this, it was mentioned to me when I signed up to fight MMA (I'm single with no kids)

This was in my policy

Insurance Policy wrote:

Taking part in (or practising for) boxing, caving, climbing, horse-racing, jetskiing, martial
arts, mountaineering, off-piste skiing, pot-holing, power boat racing, underwater diving,
yacht racing or any race, trial or times motorsport.

thedeiseman

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Nope. There's definitely a transparency issue though with online fundraising like this. No accounts, no bank account details, etc.

I'd like to see an upfront breakdown of how they plan to spend it, who they are sending it to, are they sending it to some dodgy guy in Nepal or someone reputable. Will all of it leave Ireland or some of it remain here. Do they even know a proper search will take place or the money will just end up in a bank account out there with no hope of retrieval and no search. I think Everest is only accessible in the month of May so it could be another year at least before a proper search is done.

It would be great to see receipts, and so on. We know from other countries that people used fundraised money to spend on mortgage payments and the like.

I have no trouble donating provided its all clear and transparent.

While I agree completely with what's been said on here - guy should never have been up there given his circumstances. However I don't think anyone who hasn't donated to the gofundme ( which is probably everyone on this thread), should be demanding accountability for this money. It's not really any of our business.

retro:electro

Obvious tragedy aside, this thread has been so enlightening to read and I’ve loved reading the various insights of experienced climbers and the little anecdotes and musings about the mountain in general. It’s not something I knew a lot about so it’s been fascinating reading. I knew about The Sherpa but had no idea how used and abused they were. Terrible.

My sympathies to the family.

maxsmum

If any (and I'm really clutching at straws here) good can come out of this maybe it will be a bit of education ..and that's for partners and parents who may have been clueless as to what the risks are here.
For example I'm now well prepared for my response should my son ever come to me one day announcing his desire to climb Everest.
Really hoping no sherpas die if they are forced to find his body.

Lillyfae

maxsmum wrote: »

If any (and I'm really clutching at straws here) good can come out of this maybe it will be a bit of education ..and that's for partners and parents who may have been clueless as to what the risks are here.
For example I'm now well prepared for my response should my son ever come to me one day announcing his desire to climb Everest.
Really hoping no sherpas die if they are forced to find his body.

8 years ago John Delaney did the same thing though. Lots of people will never learn.

ToBeFrank123

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Mortgage protection wouldn't cover something like this, it was mentioned to me when I signed up to fight MMA (I'm single with no kids)

This was in my policy

So married with a 4 year old and another on the way.
No travel insurance if he ran into problems.
And no mortgage protection if climbing a mountain.
And his trip probably can't be considered in service with Trinity.

Its hard to draw any other conclusion than this guy was playing Russian Roulette with his life and his family's future.

It also sounds like he fell into a valley. Its hard enough getting a dead body off the mountain when its on the main route. If its in a valley in the deathzone, impossible. Best to leave him there and not risk more lives.

lazygal

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

ToBeFrank123

lazygal wrote: »

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

That's fair enough. I hope the wife gets something. Although at the moment, there is no body.

pc7

lazygal wrote: »

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

If you are on unpaid leave you may not be covered for ‘death in service benefit’ so depends on the university’s policy and what leave he was on (annual, shorter working year, special leave of absence etc).

banie01

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

That's fair enough. I hope the wife gets something. Although at the moment, there is no body.

A body is not needed nor does there need to be a 7yr wait(many people think there does) before a "death" can be confirmed.

The outright selfishness of the climber in undertaking this trip is absolutely baffling.
Leaving aside the adventure holiday as a "charity" event.

Choosing to leave your family behind and let's be honest here...
At risk of extreme financial hardship should he be one of the 3% that die on the climb!
No mortgage protection policy payout (let's hope that at least the family home is owned outright)
Unlikely to have a life assurance policy payout unless an absolutely huge single premium policy was taken out prior to the climb.

And whilst death in service will likely be in place, some policies do exclude high risk activities.

To decide that climbing a mountain, risking not only your own life but your young families future is worth a throw of the dice!
Is in my honest opinion selfish, arrogant hubris.

My condolences to his family and to those affected by Mr Lawless loss...

But and I say this as someone who was left widowed to raise a child alone!
Risking your family's future, leaving them dependent upon the kindness of strangers is absolute egocentric selfishness.

Does one climb a mountain to be a hero to a club of climbers and have a great "top of the world" anecdote.
Or does one ensure that whatever happens that they are around to be there for their child!

I know which one is the "hero" in my book!

ToBeFrank123

I was just reading this article on how difficult it is to retrieve a body.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/27/the-extraordinary-cost-of-retrieving-dead-bodies-from-mount-everest/?utm_term=.216993b64a1b

Some of these climbers seem to be a bit hippy leaning with their names!, eg Seaborn Beck Weathers

Anyways, he put it really well with his advice.

One former climber, Seaborn Beck Weathers who chronicled his experience nearly perishing on the mountain in a book titled “Left for Dead,” now strongly advises potential climbers to reconsider. He told BBC, “If you don’t have anyone who cares about you or is dependent on you, if you have no friends or colleagues, and if you’re willing to put a single round in the chamber of a revolver and put it in your mouth and pull the trigger, then yeah, it’s a pretty good idea to climb Everest.”

A body can be twice its weight after you dig it out of the ice and snow. Sounds like Lawless' body is in a valley though, 500metres from where he was last seen. Retrieving his body would be a virtual suicide mission at best.

bodice ripper

ToBeFrank123 wrote:

Some of these climbers seem to be a bit hippy leaning with their names!, eg Seaborn Beck Weathers

Literally a conservative, Texan doctor.

lazygal

pc7 wrote: »

lazygal wrote: »

A death in service benefit just means you're employed by the organisation at the time of death. Doesn't mean the death was linked to your job.

If you are on unpaid leave you may not be covered for ‘death in service benefit’ so depends on the university’s policy and what leave he was on (annual, shorter working year, special leave of absence etc).

Well of course like any benefits there are terms and conditions. But a death in service benefit isn't usually directly linked to dying while "on the job".