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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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EC1000

healy1835 wrote: »

Was sending an outline of my training for DCM last year to a mate, said I'd post it here. Some of it may be of use to someone ran 2:58, but was definitely in faster shape.

That was some serious mileage you were putting away there.... fair play!

Tigerandahalf

Out of interest have many people gone beyond 20 miles in their lsr and how many of them would be above 17 miles in the marathon block.

If you are doing a mid week long run of 10 miles, is 20 miles as far as you would need to go at the weekend?

Thanks

shotgunmcos

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Out of interest have many people gone beyond 20 miles in their lsr and how many of them would be above 17 miles in the marathon block.

If you are doing a mid week long run of 10 miles, is 20 miles as far as you would need to go at the weekend?

Thanks

I got 2:58:50 off 2x 16m and 2x18m and off 80-90k weeks (inc 10m per week of MP running). But I was all out going over the line. It was a perfect day

Healy did 110-130k weeks and a hatful of 20+m and got 2:58 but more within himself. It was a nice but roasting day and if you went into his log he was killing his interval sessions.

Murph_D

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I got 2:58:50 off 2x 16m and 2x18m and off 80-90k weeks (inc 10m per week of MP running). But I was all out going over the line. It was a perfect day

Healy did 110-130k weeks and a hatful of 20+m and got 2:58 but more within himself. It was a nice but roasting day and if you went into his log he was killing his interval sessions.

And you seemed to have more on the day, off less intense but maybe a little bit more specific training. J’s schedule had a 19-miler in week one and a 20 in week 4 - I just don’t understand that, regardless of the intensity of those early LRs.

thomas anderson.

I think I did 8 20+ milers in my last block. One Sunday morning did a 21 and in the evening did a 5 mile easy hill session.

Got a 2:53 in Boston and a 2:54 in London 2 weeks later.

healy1835

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Out of interest have many people gone beyond 20 miles in their lsr and how many of them would be above 17 miles in the marathon block.

If you are doing a mid week long run of 10 miles, is 20 miles as far as you would need to go at the weekend?

Thanks

I would have done a good few over 20miles alright.....3x30k, 1x32k, 3x34k & 1x36k. But I'd built up to that sort of mileage over the 4 previous marathon blocks. There wouldn't have been many days when I didn't run 10 miles.

I think I remember the lads on Marathon Talk saying that your 5 longest runs should add up to at least 100miles ideally, no matter what your goal is, but I stand to be corrected as to whether they actually said that!

healy1835

Murph_D wrote: »

And you seemed to have more on the day, off less intense but maybe a little bit more specific training. J’s schedule had a 19-miler in week one and a 20 in week 4 - I just don’t understand that, regardless of the intensity of those early LRs.

Yeah if I remember correctly, I'd come off the block for Rotterdam & Limerick and had done a short 6 week block for a 5k & 5mile race that wasn't exactly a resounding success. The plan was to drop the intensity and up the mileage for those first 3/4 weeks. No real sessions or speed work, nearly all easy miles leading into Mullingar 10 Miler, with the LR's starting fairly long.

healy1835

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Healy did 110-130k weeks and a hatful of 20+m and got 2:58 but more within himself. It was a nice but roasting day and if you went into his log he was killing his interval sessions.

That was actually my Dublin training Mike. My Limerick training was really my Rotterdam block from the previous spring. The heat in Rotterdam did for me in the end, but I survived the sun trap that was Limerick city in May '18 and escaped with a sub 3

Will root out that training and post it too.

noelearly

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Am I right in that the Hanson's plan only goes as far as 16 miles for the long run.
I presume it is thus geared towards people with a solid 2 or 3 year base and towards people who are running a marathon < 9 months from the last 1.

Did the hansons for Frankfurt last year.... coming off injury i got in Cork so scaled back my approach somewhat and did the hanson plan. Only thing i changed in plan was i did one 20 miler because i went with a buddy and average pace was around 8min mile. Don't think ill ever do a 20 miler again, found doing the 16 on tired legs way more beneficial. But that's just me might not work for everybody.

Itziger

What the last couple of pages is clearly (!!!!) reinforcing is the fact that different plans work for different people.

The only way to 'prove' anything here would be to take 100 runners doing a classical 20 to 23 mile runs type plan and the next year change them all over to a Hansons type plan.

Not that you'd prove much other than 'different plans suit different runners' in any case.

I have one concern about Hansons that is not about the LR and that is doing 2 sessions so close together, normally Tuesday and Thursday, right? See, that worries me. I seem to need a minimum of 2 easy days between harder efforts. I might, might give it a lash some year.

MrMacPhisto

Itziger wrote: »

What the last couple of pages is clearly (!!!!) reinforcing is the fact that different plans work for different people.

The only way to 'prove' anything here would be to take 100 runners doing a classical 20 to 23 mile runs type plan and the next year change them all over to a Hansons type plan.

Not that you'd prove much other than 'different plans suit different runners' in any case.

I have one concern about Hansons that is not about the LR and that is doing 2 sessions so close together, normally Tuesday and Thursday, right? See, that worries me. I seem to need a minimum of 2 easy days between harder efforts. I might, might give it a lash some year.

I agree with ya Itziger, what works for one person won't necessarily work for the next guy or girl. I have followed the Hanson plan a few times and it has worked for me. I might try Jack Daniels or P&D again, or something completely new next time for a bit of variety.

Re the Hanson plan and the two sessions, maybe you could stretch the plan out to 20 weeks, or an 8 day schedule rather than 7day. Give yourself an extra recovery day or rest day. I guess this would depend on your flexibility and whether you only have time for a long run on a specific day like every Sunday.

Itziger

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

I agree with ya Itziger, what works for one person won't necessarily work for the next guy or girl. I have followed the Hanson plan a few times and it has worked for me. I might try Jack Daniels or P&D again, or something completely new next time for a bit of variety.

Re the Hanson plan and the two sessions, maybe you could stretch the plan out to 20 weeks, or an 8 day schedule rather than 7day. Give yourself an extra recovery day or rest day. I guess this would depend on your flexibility and whether you only have time for a long run on a specific day like every Sunday.

Interesting point. I suppose it's something that might work although doing a long run on any day other than Sat/Sun would mean you'd need longish days really (as in daylight) but I suppose it's an idea alright.

shotgunmcos

Itziger wrote: »

Interesting point. I suppose it's something that might work although doing a long run on any day other than Sat/Sun would mean you'd need longish days really (as in daylight) but I suppose it's an idea alright.

But that would defeat the principle of cumulative fatigue. If you stretch and bend a plan then it's not the plan anymore. It's a different plan. It's called the Hansons method. You recover just enough to get through the Thursday session then have 2 easy days before the LR. Doesn't matter how you skin a week because 3 sessions a 4 easy/recovery days. You could put 2 days between your midweek session but that leaves just a day between tempo day and LR day.

Stretching out to 20 weeks and 8 day cycles might be an idea if you are happy doing your LR on a different day every week. You would need to structure the pattern back to the race week over the last few week's.

Hansons do have a 20 week plan with 18-20m LRs but it still basically follows the method!

28064212

Itziger wrote: »

The only way to 'prove' anything here would be to take 100 runners doing a classical 20 to 23 mile runs type plan and the next year change them all over to a Hansons type plan.

So long as you take another 100 and have them all doing a Hansons plan, followed by a year of a classical plan. And then another 100 who do two classical cycles back-to-back. And another 100 to do two Hansons back-to-back...

Not that you'd prove much other than 'different plans suit different runners' in any case...

healy1835

healy1835 wrote: »

That was actually my Dublin training Mike. My Limerick training was really my Rotterdam block from the previous spring. The heat in Rotterdam did for me in the end, but I survived the sun trap that was Limerick city in May '18 and escaped with a sub 3 Will root out that training and post it too.

As previously advertised. Had forgotten about a few bits and pieces....looking back now, I don't know where I would have been mentally if I hadn't of reloaded and ran Limerick.

OOnegative

Can I ask ye sub 3 lads, what was yer weight roughly when ye made that breakthrough?

thomas anderson.

10st 7lbs

OOnegative

thomas anderson. wrote: »

10st 7lbs

Height Dude if you don’t mind?

thomas anderson.

OOnegative wrote: »

Height Dude if you don’t mind?

5ft 7in.

Got down to 10st 3lb for 2:53

Bahanaman

Am 13 stone 5 at the moment which is just about average for me over the last few years. For my 2:54 in Frankfurt in 2015! (Holy crap!) I was 12 stone 5 and one day immediately after a particularly warm long run during training I weighed 11 stone 12!
Edit : Height = 6 feet

OOnegative

thomas anderson. wrote: »

5ft 7in.

Got down to 10st 3lb for 2:53

I know it’s all about what training you put in, but at 78.3kgs it’s one of the lightest i’ve been at 6ft 1in. I was roughly 75kgs in 2017 for Barcelona when I fainted, combination of weight & heat maybe on the day?

squinn2912

I’m 5 ‘9 and hit the first sub3 at about 10.5 stone. I ran Belfast in 2:53 at 11 stone and two weeks later I’m a couple of lbs heavier. I keep an eye on it out of curiosity but you feel it when you’re fit

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

I’m 5 ‘9 and hit the first sub3 at about 10.5 stone. I ran Belfast in 2:53 at 11 stone and two weeks later I’m a couple of lbs heavier. I keep an eye on it out of curiosity but you feel it when you’re fit

You kept that quiet......the 2:53, not the weight! Well done

more details please....

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

You kept that quiet......the 2:53, not the weight! Well done more details please....

Haha I thought I did announce it? Yea got it this day fortnight ago in Belfast. Been a bit sulky over the long measurement mess up.

Thoughts on it are that the course is ok but hilly in very bad places (1.5 miles at 17-18 & 24). Weather was perfect. Took a gel on the start line and had bad cramps at mile 6 so wondering if that’s what caused it, I had to take the foot off for 2/3 miles. Good platform to work from now hoping for Dublin after i get rid of niggles and a bit of a work injury. Averaged 53 mpw in training and I do have a small regret about not pushing that up to the 60. Good bit more speed though with longer intervals, similar but faster tempos and 3/4 miles hard towards the end of most of the long runs

Never thought I’d see the day when I’d be underwhelmed with a 2:53! 6 pbs in a row now since last July thats pleasing

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha I thought I did announce it?

Not only did you announce it, but I replied to it! In my defence, I had had a few beers at that stage of the day

what's next?

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

Not only did you announce it, but I replied to it! In my defence, I had had a few beers at that stage of the day what's next?

Haha no worries that confused me cos I thought I’d remembered you replying! You’re entitled an odd deor!
Hmm well I got a bad fall on hard surface on my tailbone last week and I’m experiencing hamstring and calf niggles so I need to be patient. Possibly Lisburn half marathon then rock n roll. Building for Dublin I hope (provided I get in!) you?

AuldManKing

OOnegative wrote: »

Can I ask ye sub 3 lads, what was yer weight roughly when ye made that breakthrough?

anywhere between 177-183lbs, depending on the time of day - and 6"2.

Duanington

OOnegative wrote: »

Can I ask ye sub 3 lads, what was yer weight roughly when ye made that breakthrough?

I don't weigh myself TBH ( the needle probably wouldn't move much these days anyway) but I'd suspect I was somewhere around the 11\11.5 stone mark - 6 ft 2 or so

healy1835

In or around 150lbs for Rotterdam that time (prob heavier for Limerick

). 5'10"(ish)

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

and 6"2.

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