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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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antodeco

I think what needs to happen is that there is a max speed limit, and there must be insurance for all of them. I think thats the most common way to deal with it (cant be driven on paths etc...) High vis etc.

Just because it can be powered without manual input, doesnt make it some evil vehicle. Look at those small 4 wheel buggy type things, you see alot of people on (EG people who have difficulty walking) Ive been hit a few times by them. They dont have registration plates, insurance etc, and are allowed on the path. Their speed is lower, so my assumption is that, that is why they dont need it. Find a middle ground. Treat them the same as bicycles, but with a speed limiting factor.

Markcheese

I actually think the insurance and registration is a joke,just treat speed limited ones like a pedal lec or a bicycle,

Is there a claims crisis in Dublin due to uninsured bicycles?.
Do people organise crashes of bicycles to claim insurance? Or put in spurious claims to either insurance companies or the uninsured drivers fund over bikes.... (although they probably Could do that over é-scooter at the moment).. I think you'll create a problem by forcing insurance and registration...

I'd have no trouble with riders having to do a half day basic training course, and having to have that cert on them while riding, wearing a helmet and additional lights...

And I have no problems with gardai enforcing the rules of the road, or seizing ilegal scooters,

But they're a potentially game changing transport aid in urban areas, they will cost the government Feic all, and once they're not harming others I wonder about the amount of sor grapes coming across...

Johnboy1951

Markcheese wrote: »

I actually think the insurance and registration is a joke,just treat speed limited ones like a pedal lec or a bicycle,

If I am, through no fault of my own, struck by a vehicle, be it powered or not, there should be insurance cover for any injury caused etc..

That same should apply to all users of vehicles, regardless their size speed or how powered ..... manually; electric, ICE etc..

Markcheese

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If I am, through no fault of my own, struck by a vehicle, be it powered or not, there should be insurance cover for any injury caused etc..

That same should apply to all users of vehicles, regardless their size speed or how powered ..... manually; electric, ICE etc..

You're entitled to sue for costs... Should pedestrians be insured..? Cats and dogs? Insurance federation of Ireland will love you...

McGiver

Johnboy1951 wrote:

For low powered vehicles ... Decide on a max power rating and max speed for the likes of e-scooters and powered cycles and get rid of the registration requirements, road tax, number plates etc and require specific insurance for the person using such vehicles.

Spot on.

1. Restrict power and speed. Less power = less speed = less kinetic energy = lower potential damage (down to physics).

2. Insurance for the person and you have to carry the insurance policy with you. Simples. No plates, registrations and what not, that's a nonsense.

Swiss folks do two types of insurance which would be suitable to mandate for these e-things - personal liability insurance and accident insurance. Either of those should be sufficient, cheap enough. The person checked by Garda would then just need to present valid insurance policy.

McGiver

Markcheese wrote:

You're entitled to sue for costs... Should pedestrians be insured..? Cats and dogs? Insurance federation of Ireland will love you...

Not really, but people operating any kind of vehicle should. Common sense.

Swiss folks do and personal liability insurance and accident injury. Many people have those, while not mandatory a Swiss federal government recommends having one. I got ti study these things when considering an offer in Switzerland.

tuxy

McGiver wrote: »

Swiss folks do two types of insurance which would be suitable to mandate for these e-things - personal liability insurance and accident insurance. Either of those should be sufficient, cheap enough.

Insurance in most other countries is significantly cheaper. Using Switzerland as an example, I could insure my car 3rd party at 1/3 of the price it costs me in Ireland.
With high payout rates for insurance claims in Ireland what incentives are there for companies to offer cover on these types of vehicles?

Johnboy1951

tuxy wrote: »

Insurance in most other countries is significantly cheaper. Using Switzerland as an example, I could insure my car 3rd party at 1/3 of the price it costs me in Ireland.
With high payout rates for insurance claims in Ireland what incentives are there for companies to offer cover on these types of vehicles?

Why write about incentives for insurance companies?

The requirement should be in law regardless.

If companies want to quote for business or not is up to them.

tuxy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Why write about incentives for insurance companies?

The requirement should be in law regardless.

If companies want to quote for business or not is up to them.

That's the thing, they won't. Not in this country, it would have to be a government organisation that offers the cover and it would have to be expensive to cover the large payouts. I can't see anyone paying €1k or more a year to insure an electric scooter.

McGiver

tuxy wrote:

Insurance in most other countries is significantly cheaper. Using Switzerland as an example, I could insure my car 3rd party at 1/3 of the price it costs me in Ireland. With high payout rates for insurance claims in Ireland what incentives are there for companies to offer cover on these types of vehicles?

The person is insured, not the vehicle.

prinzeugen

antodeco wrote: »

Just because it can be powered without manual input, doesnt make it some evil vehicle. Look at those small 4 wheel buggy type things, you see alot of people on (EG people who have difficulty walking) Ive been hit a few times by them. They dont have registration plates, insurance etc, and are allowed on the path. Their speed is lower, so my assumption is that, that is why they dont need it. Find a middle ground. Treat them the same as bicycles, but with a speed limiting factor.

They are classed as invalid carriages so are exempt under road traffic law. I think the only mention of them in the Road Traffic Act is about being banned from motorways. They are manufactured to strict rules and (in the UK anyway) must be roadworthy.

To make E-scooters legal the following MAY need to happen...

A new licence category ES for example. Users would need to pass a test to get it like Cat A,B etc.

Scooters would need to meet a minimum standard and have a certificate of conformity. LIghts, tyres, brakes etc just like motorbikes or cars.

Some sort of identifying tag or plate. You need to know who owns the scooter. Also insurance. There is no point saying these need insurance if a person that has been hit by one can't identify the scooter or rider because it has no plates.

Jestskis in parts of the US have a stick on number for that very reason.

And obviously the RTA would need updated. Just saying "if the are limited in speed, etc" will not work as that system WILL be abused doubling the work for the Garda.

ED E

The germans have just progressed legislation for them.

20kph.
No one wheels, skateboards, balance wheels etc (need a steering column)
Helmets required

I would not be shocked to see us copy/paste similar legislation here. Then everyone will flash legal scooters back up to 30kph and it'll be unenforceable.

Blueshoe

Should people on bicycles have to take out an insurance policy?.
What happens if they hit a pedestrian?

If we are going to turn into a country of ****ing eejits let's go the whole 9 yards. No half measures

Markcheese

ED E wrote: »

The germans have just progressed legislation for them.

20kph.
No one wheels, skateboards, balance wheels etc (need a steering column)
Helmets required

I would not be shocked to see us copy/paste similar legislation here. Then everyone will flash legal scooters back up to 30kph and it'll be unenforceable.

Except as the number of these on the roads increase, the speeds will drop... (like my trip to work, the speed limit is 120, rare that I get over 100)

Markcheese

Blueshoe wrote: »

Should people on bicycles have to take out an insurance policy?.
What happens if they hit a pedestrian?

If we are going to turn into a country of ****ing eejits let's go the whole 9 yards. No half measures

Yup, everyone could have to have personal cover, the higher your risk, the higher your premium, (call it twat insurance, or maybe assurance)

Blueshoe

Markcheese wrote: »

Yup, everyone could have to have personal cover, the higher your risk, the higher your premium, (call it twat insurance, or maybe assurance)

What if a pedestrian walks in front of a cyclist who then falls off and gets injured.
Pedestrians should have an insurance policy too.

We just can't have nice things in this country.

Air BnB no
Uber no
Electric scooters no

What a kip

prinzeugen

ED E wrote: »

The germans have just progressed legislation for them.

20kph.
No one wheels, skateboards, balance wheels etc (need a steering column)
Helmets required

I would not be shocked to see us copy/paste similar legislation here. Then everyone will flash legal scooters back up to 30kph and it'll be unenforceable.

In fairness to what I have read of the Irish Road Traffic acts, there are no loopholes or grey areas. Its simple using catch all terms in most parts but goes into detail about exemptions etc.

I would imagine any future law here would be basic, but crystal clear about the definition of a E-scooter, minimum requirements etc just like it is for motorbikes for example.

Has anyone thought about house insurance? I would say your premium will shoot up if they know you have one in the house!

Markcheese

Why would it shoot up? É-scooters are cheaper than most bikes.

prinzeugen

Blueshoe wrote: »

What if a pedestrian walks in front of a cyclist who then falls off and gets injured.
Pedestrians should have an insurance policy too.

Cyclists are road users so need to pay attention. If anyone hits a pedestrian the first question is "why didn't you see them". Its called due care and attention. You should be aware of what is going on around you.

prinzeugen

Markcheese wrote: »

Why would it shoot up? É-scooters are cheaper than most bikes.

Fire risk. Look at how many hover boards went up in smoke. Dublin Fire Brigade even tweeted about the dangers of charging that type of battery indoors (do it in a outbuilding).

tuxy

McGiver wrote: »

The person is insured, not the vehicle.

Exactly, Switzerland is very different from Ireland, if I was living in Switzerland my liability to an insurance company would be much lower. People will only take out personal liability insurance if it's affordable and it will only be affordable if the risk for insurance companies is low.

ED E

prinzeugen wrote: »

Fire risk. Look at how many hover boards went up in smoke. Dublin Fire Brigade even tweeted about the dangers of charging that type of battery indoors (do it in a outbuilding).

You're greatly exaggerating the risk of a small 36V lipo pack. As long as you don't charge one while visibly damaged (post crash) they're about as dangerous as a laptop.

antodeco

prinzeugen wrote: »

They are classed as invalid carriages so are exempt under road traffic law. I think the only mention of them in the Road Traffic Act is about being banned from motorways. They are manufactured to strict rules and (in the UK anyway) must be roadworthy.

To make E-scooters legal the following MAY need to happen...

A new licence category ES for example. Users would need to pass a test to get it like Cat A,B etc.

Scooters would need to meet a minimum standard and have a certificate of conformity. LIghts, tyres, brakes etc just like motorbikes or cars.

Some sort of identifying tag or plate. You need to know who owns the scooter. Also insurance. There is no point saying these need insurance if a person that has been hit by one can't identify the scooter or rider because it has no plates.

Jestskis in parts of the US have a stick on number for that very reason.

And obviously the RTA would need updated. Just saying "if the are limited in speed, etc" will not work as that system WILL be abused doubling the work for the Garda.

And so should bicycles, which they don't. They are meant to, but they don't. No helmet wearing, lights, going through lights, cutting across the front of your car without notice.

As mentioned, it should be based on the person not vehicle. An idiot is as dangerous on a bicycle as a scooter and vice versa.

Capt'n Midnight

ED E wrote: »

The germans have just progressed legislation for them.

20kph.
No one wheels, skateboards, balance wheels etc (need a steering column)
Helmets required

I would not be shocked to see us copy/paste similar legislation here. Then everyone will flash legal scooters back up to 30kph and it'll be unenforceable.

Link please.

are they allowed on path / cycle lane / road ?
registration / fines / vehicle category ?

The devil is in the detail.

my guess is that they'd fit in to the Denmark, Sweden, Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium also have a light moped with lower maximum speed. category which just doesn't exist here

Which means we can't have similar legislation here

ED E

In German

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/E-Scooter-Bundesrat-gibt-Elektrorollern-entscheidenden-Schubs-4424380.html

Johnboy1951

The main points seem to be

14 years of age and older
used on bike paths and bike lanes only ... not on footpaths
max speed of 20kmph
given same access as bicycles such as some one way streets
For use on other than bike lanes a special licence is required

Approved protection required I think .... headgear.

Xiaomi M365 or the Segway Ninebot ES2, are unlikely to receive subsequent approval

McGiver

tuxy wrote:

Exactly, Switzerland is very different from Ireland, if I was living in Switzerland my liability to an insurance company would be much lower. People will only take out personal liability insurance if it's affordable and it will only be affordable if the risk for insurance companies is low.

So basically you say solutions from other countries won't work in Ireland, because it's... Ireland? Oh not this defeatism again.

McGiver

antodeco wrote:

And so should bicycles, which they don't. They are meant to, but they don't. No helmet wearing, lights, going through lights, cutting across the front of your car without notice.

In England it's enforced, lack of lights at night at least from my personal experience, and I've heard helmets too. Gardai don't see to be able to enforce anything here.

McGiver

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

category which just doesn't exist here

This moped thing is present in almost all continental Europe countries AFAIK...

tuxy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

[*]used on bike paths and bike lanes only ... not on footpaths
[*]For use on other than bike lanes a special licence is required

That's going to be a major issue in Ireland with many of the bike lanes too dangerous and coming to abrupt ends, not linking up ect.
Perhaps in a few decades the infrastructure will be there.

McGiver wrote: »

So basically you say solutions from other countries won't work in Ireland, because it's... Ireland? Oh not this defeatism again.

No I believe it can work in Ireland but because of the current situation with insurance and infrastructure it will take a few decades. No current politician is prepared to challenge the cosy insurance cartel or flawed legal precedent that has been set, give it another generation or two and there will be change though.