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Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

Sam Russell

mod: Ok, I have moved the posts that were off topic on the M6 Galway ring road thread.

The guidelines for this thread are :

1. Discussion of ways to better serve the Galway traffic distribution.

2. No talk of VRT, Motor Tax, etc. They are not Galway specific.

3. Modal switch is OK if it avoids slagging off other types of traffic, and is relevant to Galway.

4. Suggestions of P&R locations if it would solve problems.

Usual rules apply - do not attack the poster, and be civil.

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[Deleted User]

Sam Russell wrote: »

Traffic lights reduce junction capacity by at least 50%. Only one side moving at a time.

The data shows otherwise with increased throughput on all junctions in Galway where the RABs were removed

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

The data shows otherwise with increased throughput on all junctions in Galway where the RABs were removed

I was not comparing traffic lights with RABs but with freeflow junctions.

The problem with RABs in Galway is the lack of drivers used to them and also the poor design. The vast majority of drivers in Galway passed their test before roundabouts became common in Galway, and consequently do not understand how to use them. The design also does not make it easy to drive into them because it is hard to read the intentions of the driver coming towards you - is the car going to the left before me or not?

[Deleted User]

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was not comparing traffic lights with RABs but with freeflow junctions.

The problem with RABs in Galway is the lack of drivers used to them and also the poor design. The vast majority of drivers in Galway passed their test before roundabouts became common in Galway, and consequently do not understand how to use them. The design also does not make it easy to drive into them because it is hard to read the intentions of the driver coming towards you - is the car going to the left before me or not?

I'm no fan of the RABs but come on, that's weak and you know it. Those RABs are there for several decades

Maybe someone struggles a bit the first few times but are you seriously trying to suggest that the reason for Galway’s traffic is commuters are unfamiliar and confused by, RABs that they drive through several times a day, every day they are working.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm no fan of the RABs but come on, that's weak and you know it. Those RABs are there for several decades

Maybe someone struggles a bit the first few times but are you seriously trying to suggest that the reason for Galway’s traffic is commuters are unfamiliar and confused by, RABs that they drive through several times a day, every day they are working.

It is not just Galway but nearly all drivers that have problems with roundabouts. The difficulty comes from the design of the roundabout, and the lack of indication by drivers, and the wrong use of lanes on roundabouts.

I even notice that many drivers (in Dublin anyway) who do not understand traffic lights, waiting at the repeat lights. It is difficult to explain in words. Car turning right on green stops halfway through the turn when the driver sees the red light for the other direction. I suspect they are foreign trained drivers that are used to other patterns of lights.

Driver training needs improving, but once we pass our driving test - that is it. There are many drivers on the road that never passed a test. There is more chance of a Luas for Galway han geting drivers to improve their training. Also 80% of drivers think they have above average driving skills.

[Deleted User]

Ok, thank god for that clarification

So yeah, RABs are a crap option and there's a lot of ****e drivers, no disagreement there

McGiver

Sam Russell wrote:

Luas would cost less than the GRR, but lots a bus lanes and buses would cost less than that and might carry more people. The Luas cannot go everywhere but buses can.

Yep but bus = carcinogenic pollution unless it's electric. Knowing that no one should promote buses at this stage. LPG or electric no problem.

McGiver

Sam Russell wrote:

It is not just Galway but nearly all drivers that have problems with roundabouts. The difficulty comes from the design of the roundabout, and the lack of indication by drivers, and the wrong use of lanes on roundabouts.

Irish folks can't do RABs, at least in Galway. Is it a local issue, regional or nationwide?

That's my observation, I'm comparing to England.

Now, another issue I have with Galway RABs is that almost all of them don't have lane marking like elsewhere in Ireland and England. Confusing and dangerous.

markpb

McGiver wrote: »

Yep but bus = carcinogenic pollution unless it's electric. Knowing that no one should promote buses at this stage. LPG or electric no problem.

Euro6 buses are cleaner than most cars diving alongside them. Alternative fuels would be better but one bus is still better than 50 cars.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

while sustainable transport usage is low, it's very hard to argue for spending on sustainable transport and not upgrading the road.

It's actually pretty easy to make such an argument.

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, cut the traffic capacity of the existing N6 in half - without providing a bypass alternative - that should make it so much easier for those doing long distance East-West travel. :mad: Unbe****inglievable.

Exactly, cut the capicty for cars, and more quadruple the capacity for people.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

BE already said they would happily increase the frequency of services and coverage of routes however until there is a sufficient amount of bus lanes there is no point.

It's a chicken and egg thing.

You can't build bus lanes because that would reduce capacity too much because there's too many cars.

Once the bypass is built you can go ahead and slash the capacity of the existing roads and I would be all for it

It doesn't work that way, a motorway would provide too much utility for car commuters, there would be no incentive to change mode if you already have a car, free work place parking and a motorway route.

The only way that could work is if the new motorway was heavily tolled for non HGVs like the Dublin port tunnel.

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

It's actually pretty easy to make such an argument.

Of course, yes, any argument is easy to make.

What I meant is that it's hard to argue on the basis of what "the majority needs" are, when there's no current proof that future public transport would be used. The majority needs appear to be more space for private cars, as the volume of these has reached capacity.

There will always be a preference to drive and unfortunately I know plenty of people who still view their own personal vehicle as something of a status symbol. Arguing against road investment with these people and arguing in favour of sustainable transport is difficult when they effectively associate the use of sustainable transport with poverty. Perhaps something needs to be changed with the marketing of vehicles as status symbols. But that's not going to happen any time soon.

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

You can’t force people onto a substandard public transport system on substandard roads and practically non existent rail systems.

There's a simple solution: spend approx 30% of what was going to be spent on the bypass on building a world class bus and cycling system, and save the 2/3rds of the money that was going to be wasted on the bypass.

Carol25 wrote: »

How are the businesses and people of Galway supposed to function with even less road capacity and no properly developed infrastructure for public transport offered as an alternative?

Simple, spend a smaller amount on improving the PT infrastructure.

Carol25 wrote: »

How is footfall to be affected?

Greatly improved, more people will be changing bus in the City Centre to reach destinations on the far side, much better for the City then sending everyone around it in a single occupancy car.

Carol25 wrote: »

How is this a good idea in marketing Galway as a place to do business, live and work in the future?.

Easy: a livable city, pedestrian, bike and PT user friendly, no traffic, an environmentally friendly and sustainable city. This is a much easier sell than, 'come to Galway, where the carcinogenic compounds from diesel emissions will shorten your life considerably and you won't be able to get anywhere because the streets are full of single occupancy cars'.

Carol25 wrote: »

Are the tourists, people of the West Galway and the people of Connemara (which one poster here seems to deem non-existent) not entitled to a proper road and access to the City?

Carol25 wrote: »

Where do the cars/buses, etc, fit? Quincentennial Bridge is full to capacity.

remove cars, problem solved.

cgcsb

McGiver wrote: »

Yep but bus = carcinogenic pollution unless it's electric. Knowing that no one should promote buses at this stage. LPG or electric no problem.

New Diesel buses are cleaner than most cars and they carry 50 people compared to 1 in a car. 50 cars queing at a junciton is about 100 times worse, in terms of emissions, than one bus sailing past on a bus lane.

NTA has committed to hybrid and electric for urban fleet. They won't be buying new diesel buses.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Of course, yes, any argument is easy to make.

What I meant is that it's hard to argue on the basis of what "the majority needs" are, when there's no current proof that future public transport would be used. The majority needs appear to be more space for private cars, as the volume of these has reached capacity.

There will always be a preference to drive and unfortunately I know plenty of people who still view their own personal vehicle as something of a status symbol. Arguing against road investment with these people and arguing in favour of sustainable transport is difficult when they effectively associate the use of sustainable transport with poverty. Perhaps something needs to be changed with the marketing of vehicles as status symbols. But that's not going to happen any time soon.

This is easily addressed, spend some money and hand over road space to sustainable modes. If using PT takes 10 minutes and driving you cartakes 40 minutes, then the user changes. It's a well developed science at this stage. People who want to drive as a status symbol can go and sing.

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

This is easily addressed, spend some money and hand over road space to sustainable modes. If using PT takes 10 minutes and driving you cartakes 40 minutes, then the user changes. It's a well developed science at this stage. People who want to drive as a status symbol can go and sing.

Public expenditure works by democracy and unfortunately such people have precisely the same voting power as you or I. Besides, I haven't found telling people to "go and sing" as effective as challenging their ideas/mindset directly. And it's much easier to challenge people's mindset if the numbers are directly in front of them.

But even in central Dublin, where bike is faster than car, people still drive in every day. For some people it's not enough to simply "be faster" and "cheaper". This is, to me, the bit that's not easily addressed.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Public expenditure works by democracy and unfortunately such people have precisely the same voting power as you or I. Besides, I haven't found telling people to "go and sing" as effective as challenging their ideas/mindset directly. And it's much easier to challenge people's mindset if the numbers are directly in front of them.

But even in central Dublin, where bike is faster than car, people still drive in every day. For some people it's not enough to simply "be faster" and "cheaper". This is, to me, the bit that's not easily addressed.

Galway has a really long way to go before it is comparable to Dublin City Centre in terms of bike and PT access.

The Dublin Issue will be partially solved by bus connects and will eventually be completely solved by rationalizing parking.

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

Exactly, cut the capicty for cars, and more quadruple the capacity for people.

You mean, people for whom public trasnport and cycling/walking are options? People doing only short haul travel?

So if I'm driving a freight lorry from a distribution centre in the East to a shop in Oughterard, I should get out of the lorry at the City Limits, fold up the lorry like a cheap suitcase, get on a bus, put the lorry in the luggage rack, and go through the city like that 'til I get to the other side? Or maybe put the lorry on my back and cycle?

Because that's what your 5% argument claims - it ignores legitimate East West traffic light freight lorries and other non-commuter road users, and it also ignores traffic that would not use the entire length of the bypass (like anyone whose destination is on or via the N59).

For both of those reasons, it is at best misleading, like your earlier claim that the point was to "bypass the existing bypass". If the bypass is such a bad idea, you should not need to use misleading arguments.

what_traffic wrote: »

Very true. CSO stats back it up as well. Very poor walking and cycling stats on the East Side of the Corrib.
Its so bad in around GMIT, students are applying for car parking permits and they only live with 1km of it in Renmore. The multilane roundabout needs to go and proper signalized junction installed at the Ballyloughane junction.

Another misleading argument.

Why do you assume that the reason the students want car parking permits is because the drive less than 1 km? Seriously! of all the hair brained arguments I've seen on this thread, this has to be the worst. I can think of at least three reasons why a student may want to keep a car despite NOT using it for the daily commute - and I know because most all of them applied to me a few years back:

A mature student owned a car before going back to education. They may have reasons to keep a car, responsibilities forcing them to do so, or a desire not to lose their independence.
A student's home place may be very far from the college and maybe also remote - for example if someone is studying in Galway but their family home is 3 miles down a single lane road from a two horse village in Donegal, their life will be a lot easier if they have a car.
Recreational and personal use outside of commuting - e.g. you might live 500M from your classes and walk, but the nearest supermarket could be miles away. Or, if you stay in your city of study, you may want to drive somewhere for recreational purposes especially at weekends.

Why would you assume that the reason a student wants a parking permit is to commute less than 1km daily?

Why?

what_traffic

SeanW wrote: »

You mean, people for whom public trasnport and cycling/walking are options? People doing only short haul travel?

So if I'm driving a freight lorry from a distribution centre in the East to a shop in Oughterard, I should get out of the lorry at the City Limits, fold up the lorry like a cheap suitcase, get on a bus, put the lorry in the luggage rack, and go through the city like that 'til I get to the other side? Or maybe put the lorry on my back and cycle?

Because that's what your 5% argument claims - it ignores legitimate East West traffic light freight lorries and other non-commuter road users, and it also ignores traffic that would not use the entire length of the bypass (like anyone whose destination is on or via the N59).

For both of those reasons, it is at best misleading, like your earlier claim that the point was to "bypass the existing bypass". If the bypass is such a bad idea, you should not need to use misleading arguments.

Another misleading argument.

Why do you assume that the reason the students want car parking permits is because the drive less than 1 km? Seriously! of all the hair brained arguments I've seen on this thread, this has to be the worst. I can think of at least three reasons why a student may want to keep a car despite NOT using it for the daily commute - and I know because most all of them applied to me a few years back:
A mature student owned a car before going back to education. They may have reasons to keep a car, responsibilities forcing them to do so, or a desire not to lose their independence.

A student's home place may be very far from the college and maybe also remote - for example if someone is studying in Galway but their family home is 3 miles down a single lane road from a two horse village in Donegal, their life will be a lot easier if they have a car.

Recreational and personal use outside of commuting - e.g. you might live 500M from your classes and walk, but the nearest supermarket could be miles away. Or, if you stay in your city of study, you may want to drive somewhere for recreational purposes especially at weekends.

Why would you assume that the reason a student wants a parking permit is to commute less than 1km daily? Why?

You are so limited SeanW.
Why would they need a parking permit for GMIT campus if they were using car for all the above purpose?

FYI - GMIT do NOT issue a permit if you live within 1.5km of GMIT(student or staff); yet people are still applying every year who live within that radius. I know the person who issues the permits.

Have to shout this
THE REASON STUDENTS AND STAFF OF GMIT APPLY FOR PERMITS FOR GMIT IS THAT THE PEDESTRIAN ENVIRONEMNT AROUND GMIT IS SO HOSTILE THEY FEEL IT IS SAFER TO DRIVE TO THE CAMPUS EVEN IN HEAVY TRAFFIC

Your Freight argument about Oughterard is pure daft. Fold up lorrys?

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

You mean, people for whom public trasnport and cycling/walking are options? People doing only short haul travel?

So if I'm driving a freight lorry from a distribution centre in the East to a shop in Oughterard, I should get out of the lorry at the City Limits, fold up the lorry like a cheap suitcase, get on a bus, put the lorry in the luggage rack, and go through the city like that 'til I get to the other side? Or maybe put the lorry on my back and cycle?

Because that's what your 5% argument claims - it ignores legitimate East West traffic light freight lorries and other non-commuter road users, and it also ignores traffic that would not use the entire length of the bypass (like anyone whose destination is on or via the N59).

You're clearly trying to make some point but I think it's slightly caught up in some fallacies and your inherent need to be dramatic, 'put the lorry on your back and cycle' :pac:

If there were continuous bus lanes on the existing N6, there would still also be a general traffic lane, if you wished to bypass Galway in a lorry that is the lane you would use.

SeanW wrote: »

For both of those reasons, it is at best misleading, like your earlier claim that the point was to "bypass the existing bypass". If the bypass is such a bad idea, you should not need to use misleading arguments.

Another misleading argument.

I have no idea what you think is 'misleading'.

Sam Russell

Would a Cork style €3.6 billion transport plan remove the need for the GORR, but in Galway's case, it would obviously be a smaller project?

A Luas or Busconnects would deliver fast through Galway PT that would attract huge usage if it meant fast reliable PT means of getting from, say Knocnacarragh to Parkmore, with the provision of low cost P&R as required.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would a Cork style €3.6 billion transport plan remove the need for the GORR, but in Galway's case, it would obviously be a smaller project?

A Luas or Busconnects would deliver fast through Galway PT that would attract huge usage if it meant fast reliable PT means of getting from, say Knocnacarragh to Parkmore, with the provision of low cost P&R as required.

Corks 3.6bn plan includes 2 Northern ring roads, one a bypass style road with no junctions and another similar to the existing N6 in Galway.

The NTA have already assessed the potential for light rail in Galway and said it's not feasible. BusConnects instead

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would a Cork style €3.6 billion transport plan remove the need for the GORR, but in Galway's case, it would obviously be a smaller project?

A Luas or Busconnects would deliver fast through Galway PT that would attract huge usage if it meant fast reliable PT means of getting from, say Knocnacarragh to Parkmore, with the provision of low cost P&R as required.

In Galway, a bus based system with improved cycling can be delivered for about 10% of CMATS and completely evaporate the business case for the GORR. The actual road space required to be converted to sustainable modes in Galway would be tiny compared to Cork, there's also no need for additional rail capacity at this time.

serfboard

cgcsb wrote: »

If there were continuous bus lanes on the existing N6, there would still also be a general traffic lane, if you wished to bypass Galway in a lorry that is the lane you would use.

The problem with this is that, if there is a traffic lane (commuter) traffic will use it, until the traffic lane becomes so horrendous that people switch to public transport.

Unfortunately, if the lane is horrendous for commuter traffic, it will also be so for long-distance traffic, so you're still clogging up the one lane that's available.

By your logic, the long-distance driver has to have a horrible experience bypassing Galway - otherwise there is no disincentive for commuter traffic.

cgcsb

serfboard wrote: »

The problem with this is that, if there is a traffic lane (commuter) traffic will use it, until the traffic lane becomes so horrendous that people switch to public transport.

Unfortunately, if the lane is horrendous for commuter traffic, it will also be so for long-distance traffic, so you're still clogging up the one lane that's available.

By your logic, the long-distance driver has to have a horrible experience bypassing Galway - otherwise there is no disincentive for commuter traffic.

Well lorries needn't make such trips at peak times and if they do they will be delayed. Well, they'll be delayed the same amount of time they are currently anyway. Some lorries being delayed in peak hour traffic isn't a valid excuse for dropping €600mil on a mega project that will make traffic in the region worse in the long term.

I also don't think that the traffic lane would be 'horrendous' in such a scenario. It'll only be as busy as the utility of it vs a new bus system will allow. If a bus journey takes you reliably from one end of Galway to another in 30 minutes then on a normal day the same journey by car will only take marginally more at peak hours.

serfboard

cgcsb wrote: »

Well lorries needn't make such trips at peak times and if they do they will be delayed.

OK - so your decree is that lorries or long-distance traffic must only bypass Galway at non-peak times? Fair enough. Can someone please alert the transport and logistics companies?

cgcsb wrote: »

I also don't think that the traffic lane would be 'horrendous' in such a scenario.

You're not getting my point - it's a question of logic. The traffic on the traffic lane has to be horrendous, and the alternative Bus Lane so much better, that people switch. Otherwise, they won't.

cgcsb

serfboard wrote: »

OK - so your decree is that lorries or long-distance traffic must only bypass Galway at non-peak times? Fair enough. Can someone please alert the transport and logistics companies?

I'm going to chalk this up to pure silliness for the sake of it. Logistics companies are well aware of traffic issues and they make every effort to time their movements to avoid it, the current N6 bypass/relief road is tiny in length. For logistics companies arranging for trucks to reach Conemara from Milan or Milan to Copenhagen, this is basically a non-issue.

serfboard wrote: »

You're not getting my point - it's a question of logic. The traffic on the traffic lane has to be horrendous, and the alternative Bus Lane so much better, that people switch. Otherwise, they won't.

It needn't be horrendous, it only needs to have a worse journey time by car than by PT alternatives.

You're talking about this as if I've just claimed to have discovered the secrete to cold fusion. Transport planning is a science, modal choice and utility is calculable, Galway isn't unique in the world. This has been done across the world before.

McGiver

SeanW wrote:

Why do you assume that the reason the students want car parking permits is because the drive less than 1 km? Seriously! of all the hair brained arguments I've seen on this thread, this has to be the worst. I can think of at least three reasons why a student may want to keep a car despite NOT using it for the daily commute - and I know because most all of them applied to me a few years back: A mature student owned a car before going back to education. They may have reasons to keep a car, responsibilities forcing them to do so, or a desire not to lose their independence. A student's home place may be very far from the college and maybe also remote - for example if someone is studying in Galway but their family home is 3 miles down a single lane road from a two horse village in Donegal, their life will be a lot easier if they have a car. Recreational and personal use outside of commuting - e.g. you might live 500M from your classes and walk, but the nearest supermarket could be miles away. Or, if you stay in your city of study, you may want to drive somewhere for recreational purposes especially at weekends. Why would you assume that the reason a student wants a parking permit is to commute less than 1km daily? Why?

Coming from the continent, I can tell you that this is a cultural issue. Where I come from, Most students in cities simply don't own cars (in general), universities are all in larger cities with developed public transport, it's a total waste of money to own a car there. It's a status symbol, only rich older students would own car pretty much.

This is a recurring thing in this discussion. The car dependency is mostly a sociocultural issue in Ireland. Plus lack of planning and investment over long period of time. And on top of that Ireland de facto became a developed country say just 35 years ago, hard to catch up to the European standard in this area.

serfboard

cgcsb wrote: »

Galway isn't unique in the world. This has been done across the world before.

There you go - it has been done across the world before, but in any example that's quoted in these discussions (look at City X), when you follow up on it, City X will have a dedicated freeflow bypass which then allows for public transport to be developed within it.

What might make Galway unique would be an attempt to do this without a dedicated free-flow bypass.

And no-one in a position of responsibility wants to take that experiment on.

serfboard

McGiver wrote: »

The car dependency is mostly a sociocultural issue in Ireland. Plus lack of planning and investment over long period of time.

The thing is, as a nation, we actively vote in the ballot box, and with our wallets for car dependency - we all (seem to) want to live in one-off rural houses and commute to the cities, and to vote for politicians who will ensure that that will happen.

Which is why Park & Ride on the outskirts of Galway is one of the essential components in solving congestion in the centre - since we don't want to live in towns which will give the critical mass needed for proper transport services to be provided.