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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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Captainsatnav

namloc1980 wrote: »

The timescale for the rail network are laughable. The strategy says between now and 2026 the only development will be through running at Kent which is a new platform to the south of the station. That's it for the next 7 YEARS!

Increased frequency to 3 trains per hour and any new train station not until 2027-2031. And the crucial elements of 10 minute frequency to Cobh and Midleton, dual tracking Midleton and electrification not until 2032-2040. Safe to say I don't think many of these things will actually happen.

100% agreed. Events Centre has a better chance of seeing light of day!

cgcsb

In 2030 the option for humanity to prevent runaway climate change will expire. So 2031 to start the simplest of these projects sounds about right for the Irish institutional state. By then sustainability will probably be forgotten in favor of enjoying the remaining years we have until the human food chain starts to collapse and society devolves into a sort of mad max situation.

On the bright side the Chinese are getting really progressive lately, they'll probably have decarbonised completely, colonised several other planets and saved the world by 2030, leaving us in Ireland saying, 'maybe a tram', nah, too ambitious.

CHealy

Its very hard to believe anything with a projected start date so far away, especially in a regional city in Ireland. To my pessimistic view, its reads like a box ticking exercise that can now be forgotten about for another 10 years. 1 Billion Euro for a light rail system in somewhere thats not Dublin? You must be joking. Id be more excited if they came out and said dont mind yer light rail, but we will be pushing on with a dedicated BRT route (something like the Glider in Belfast) that can be brought to reality within 10 years.

Corkbiiy

CHealy wrote: »

Its very hard to believe anything with a projected start date so far away, especially in a regional city in Ireland. To my pessimistic view, its reads like a box ticking exercise that can now be forgotten about for another 10 years. 1 Billion Euro for a light rail system in somewhere thats not Dublin? You must be joking. Id be more excited if they came out and said dont mind yer light rail, but we will be pushing on with a dedicated BRT route (something like the Glider in Belfast) that can be brought to reality within 10 years.

we can deliver on a light rail just as fast as a BRT, both are technically very different, light rail is more economically sustainable, and cheaper in the long run. Obviously this all depends on the powers that be getting the finger out. The route proposed can be delivered in 3 years if the money was approved today, 1bn is probably not the correct figure, it'd be closer to 2-3bn. You can do a BRT for less but you'd inconvenience the populace all the same, and a BRT will never match the capacity of a LRT.

cgcsb

There is no policy or engineering reason for not starting detailed design, planning and tendering for the luas, bus connects and 'CART' (if you will) projects in the next 2 months. The only constraint is money, which is scarce for a number of reasons. €3bn is being spent on gifting the world's first national fiber broadband network to one lucky yank for example, basically it's like winning every lottery in the world combined. An unknown sum is being paid to BAM (despite that company being notorious in the industry for blowing budgets and generally taking the p!ss) so that they can continue to not make any build progress at St James's. We're also spending about a €1bn on gifting our energy sovereignty to the French state. All these things add up you see.

CHealy

Corkbiiy wrote: »

we can deliver on a light rail just as fast as a BRT, both are technically very different, light rail is more economically sustainable, and cheaper in the long run. Obviously this all depends on the powers that be getting the finger out. The route proposed can be delivered in 3 years if the money was approved today, 1bn is probably not the correct figure, it'd be closer to 2-3bn. You can do a BRT for less but you'd inconvenience the populace all the same, and a BRT will never match the capacity of a LRT.

I dont think those that be would take any of that into consideration, I just cant see it happening. All going well Iv about 55 years left on this planet, if I see light rail in Cork in that time I'll be amazed.

fonecrusher1

Personally my interest in the whole LRT plans have dwindled to zero given the ridiculous time frames (2040??!!!). A lot can happen in 20 yrs, so many things can lead to it all being scrapped / postponed over and over aka the event centre that never was.

I'm more interested in the tall buildings planned for the city in particular the Custom House Tower which hopefully will get approved and completed relatively quickly ie: 3 - 4 yrs. Unless I'm completely wrong.

If there is to be an LRT i'll be an oul fella by then. :pac:

namloc1980

The 2040 timeframe for the most crucial elements (LRT/ dual tracking and electrification of the rail lines etc) has killed any enthusiasm I had for this. I'll be heading for my retirement age by the time any of these things are projected to be delivered.

Markcheese

Corkbiiy wrote: »

we can deliver on a light rail just as fast as a BRT, both are technically very different, light rail is more economically sustainable, and cheaper in the long run. Obviously this all depends on the powers that be getting the finger out. The route proposed can be delivered in 3 years if the money was approved today, 1bn is probably not the correct figure, it'd be closer to 2-3bn. You can do a BRT for less but you'd inconvenience the populace all the same, and a BRT will never match the capacity of a LRT.

Brt can deliver as much capacity as a tram, and with more flexibility... Admittedly by the time you're at tram capacity, you're going to be at almost tram costs.. But it's the more gradual element that attracts me, add another piece improve the system...

Corkbiiy

cgcsb wrote: »

There is no policy or engineering reason for not starting detailed design, planning and tendering for the luas, bus connects and 'CART' (if you will) projects in the next 2 months. The only constraint is money, which is scarce for a number of reasons. €3bn is being spent on gifting the world's first national fiber broadband network to one lucky yank for example, basically it's like winning every lottery in the world combined. An unknown sum is being paid to BAM (despite that company being notorious in the industry for blowing budgets and generally taking the p!ss) so that they can continue to not make any build progress at St James's. We're also spending about a €1bn on gifting our energy sovereignty to the French state. All these things add up you see.

I 100% agree. Not even planning and tendering, we need to develop the design to more than a few CGI pictures, and develop more detailed routes and explore multiple lines/phases, CMATS says nothing about cork airport.... we need to think about developing and marketing the whole city!

10% is usually the engineering fee on these sort of projects, if we even say 1% for concept and basic design that's 10 million we need to spend on concept and basic design. Say at 150€ an hour (extremely generous), that's 66,000 engineering hours or so, you need a consultancy with 15 engineers full time working on this for 2 years.

You can also use this time to anticipate what you will need to CPO, and maybe go for planning half way through and see what comes up.

Rhys Essien

I wouldn't take any notice to this cmats nonsense. Timeline is way too far out to take it seriously. We'll probably all have our own flying cars by then anyway.

Another thing to remember, we in Cork will have contributed at least €45-50 billion to the Exchequer by 2030 and they might give us 3 billion back. Lucky us.

marno21

I would be interested in seeing transport capital investment in Cork as a percentage of Cork's portion of GDP. It would be interesting

cgcsb

Rhys Essien wrote: »

I wouldn't take any notice to this cmats nonsense. Timeline is way too far out to take it seriously. We'll probably all have our own flying cars by then anyway.

Another thing to remember, we in Cork will have contributed at least €45-50 billion to the Exchequer by 2030 and they might give us 3 billion back. Lucky us.

The vast majority of what goes to the exchequer is current spending. We spend a lot of money servicing the national debt. Ireland also has an extremely generous welfare state. Add to that we've adopted the most expensive and least effective model of social housing in the world (pay private land lords whatever they like to provide it and put the rest in hotels). We also have a bloated public wage bill, the bulk of which is absorbed by the HSE (a body that is designed to employ 'managers' and perhaps dish out some healthcare when possible). The political class, TDs, councillors etc. also are among the best paid on earth.

As a result capital spending is lower than low.

snotboogie

marno21 wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing transport capital investment in Cork as a percentage of Cork's portion of GDP. It would be interesting

GDP is entangled in all sorts of tomfoolery and could be excused and/or written off. The revenue receipts is probably a better figure: https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts-by-county.pdf

Dublin 56%
Cork 11%
Kildare 3%
Galway 3%
Westmeath 2.5% (i'd imagine this is a quirk of public sector payments processing as its almost all PAYE)
Limerick 2%
Meath 2%
Kerry 2%

Rest of the 18 counties of the state combined are roughly 17%.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing transport capital investment in Cork as a percentage of Cork's portion of GDP. It would be interesting

Dublin would like this also, or even if we could just keep our own LPT, instead of distributing it elsewhere in the interests of 'fairness'

igCorcaigh

From the executive summary:

Present Value of Costs: €2.3bn
Present Value of Benets: €5.7bn
Net Present Value: €3.7bn
Benefit to Cost Ratio: 2.48

ScrubsfanChris

who_me

Looking at the proposed light-rail route - as pie-in-the-sky as it currently is - I wonder if there's an argument to be made for one additional stop beyond Mahon Point, across the water, perhaps just before Harty's Quay?

Without this stop, the light rail system doesn't really do much for Douglas or anywhere beyond that, so it remains a massive traffic bottleneck for commuters from the South East. But if you could have one light rail stop South of the Douglas river, then you could bypass Douglas village entirely.

For a relatively small additional cost I think you'd see a huge uptake in the light rail usage.

Frostybrew

who_me wrote: »

Looking at the proposed light-rail route - as pie-in-the-sky as it currently is - I wonder if there's an argument to be made for one additional stop beyond Mahon Point, across the water, perhaps just before Harty's Quay?

Without this stop, the light rail system doesn't really do much for Douglas or anywhere beyond that, so it remains a massive traffic bottleneck for commuters from the South East. But if you could have one light rail stop South of the Douglas river, then you could bypass Douglas village entirely.

For a relatively small additional cost I think you'd see a huge uptake in the light rail usage.

That would be a good idea as it would also service Jacobs island and all the new high rise going in there. It would be worth making a submission to the public consultation.

Apogee

snotboogie wrote: »

Going forward:

Updated best case schedule:

Q3 2019: Victoria Hotel, Kelleher Tyre's Student, Morrison's Island Hostel, O’Riordans Joinery Student, The Prism, The M, Jacobs Island, Parnell Place Hotel

Echo wrote:

A fresh planning application lodged this week for another development will add a further 174* bed spaces if approved. Kevin Lynch has lodged plans for an eight-storey building URL="https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Plans-for-120-student-beds-near-UCC-hit-a-roadblock-5dc36330-e0c2-4762-8561-990921471546-ds"][I]up from 5 storeys[/I][/URL on the site of the former Kelleher's Tyre premises on the Victoria Road.The development will be made up of 25 apartments with 174* student beds I]up from 124[/I.The new application seeks to alter existing planning permission in order to add an additional five apartments.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Almost-2500-student-beds-being-developed-in-cork-as-a-fresh-application-is-lodged-with-City-Hall-1f0ff4cb-cf4f-494a-97d5-571ea92973ef-ds

*The planning application refers to 154 beds, not 174.
http://planning.corkcity.ie/AppFileRefDetails/1938385/0

Corkbiiy

who_me wrote: »

Looking at the proposed light-rail route - as pie-in-the-sky as it currently is - I wonder if there's an argument to be made for one additional stop beyond Mahon Point, across the water, perhaps just before Harty's Quay?

Without this stop, the light rail system doesn't really do much for Douglas or anywhere beyond that, so it remains a massive traffic bottleneck for commuters from the South East. But if you could have one light rail stop South of the Douglas river, then you could bypass Douglas village entirely.

For a relatively small additional cost I think you'd see a huge uptake in the light rail usage.

My understanding is that with the new bloomfield interchange and the motorway, and busconnects, those bottlenecks will be removed, you need a lot of track to get from mahon to douglas. Rochestown may be feasible.

cgcsb

Douglas will be at the end of a dedicated bus corridor according to cmats. A future North-South luas(or metro) route will be on the cards after the first luas line is a roaring success, which it will be of course.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

cgcsb wrote: »

Douglas will be at the end of a dedicated bus corridor according to cmats. A future North-South luas(or metro) route will be on the cards after the first luas line is a roaring success, which it will be of course.

Fantastic, so Douglas (may) have a Luas after 2100. Anyone actually think these plans will be actually completed? I'm skeptical to say the least...

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Corkbiiy, on behalf of all of us here, thank you for your posts

I forgot to thank cgcsb also for their information going back the past few months. Great information by both posters.

Now lets get it built

kub

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Fantastic, so Douglas (may) have a Luas after 2100. Anyone actually think these plans will be actually completed? I'm skeptical to say the least...

There is no private money in these projects, all to be funded by the Government.
We all know how this part of the country does not get much in the way of Government spending.
I wonder what the position would be with The Event Centre if it was being built in Dublin, well and truly finished at this stage no doubt.
All I can see from this joke of a plan is more bus lanes and extra bus services.
The tunnel was first planned back in the 1970's, look how long it took for that to be built.
I have zero confidence in any of those major expenditure parts of that plan ever happening.
This is Cork and I as a long term resident know where we are in Dublins eyes

hans aus dtschl

kub wrote: »

All I can see from this joke of a plan is more bus lanes and extra bus services.

But...they aspire for Cork to be below the CURRENT national average % of people cycling in urban areas ....by 2040

So they aspire, by 2040 to have:
Cars- 49%
Pedestrian- 21%
Public Transport- 25%
Bike- 4%

They aspire to roughly Dublin's current levels of public transport usage (22.5%).
They aspire to above Dublin's current levels of private car usage (44%)
They aspire to lower than current Irish urban cycling totals (4.4%)

It's the stuff dreams are made of.

Source: CSO
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6mtw/

namloc1980

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Fantastic, so Douglas (may) have a Luas after 2100. Anyone actually think these plans will be actually completed? I'm skeptical to say the least...

Douglas is much more likely to get a BusConnects corridor (3-4 minute peak frequency) as set out in CMATS than the Luas ever seeing the light of day.

fonecrusher1

Passing through Ballincollig yesterday. Ain't it amazing how quick the privately funded stuff goes up! :pac:

MrDerp

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

But...they aspire for Cork to be below the CURRENT national average % of people cycling in urban areas ....by 2040

So they aspire, by 2040 to have:
Cars- 49%
Pedestrian- 21%
Public Transport- 25%
Bike- 4%

They aspire to roughly Dublin's current levels of public transport usage (22.5%).
They aspire to above Dublin's current levels of private car usage (44%)
They aspire to lower than current Irish urban cycling totals (4.4%)

It's the stuff dreams are made of.

Source: CSO
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6mtw/

It’s unfortunate, I agree that this is all which can be aspired too. But we’re coming from a low base. Dublin has significant commuter rail and two Luas lines. If cork can catch up with one tram line and a few stations that’s a good incremental improvement.

namloc1980

Instead of electrifying the rail network should be looking at Hydrogen powered trains. Some of these are operational in Germany. The only byproduct is pure water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vgxrsn_bY4