Kidchameleon wrote: » Rape on a man is not as bad as rape on a woman for the same reason, the law reflects that.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Well lets not get into semantics. I understand it is not murder in the legal sense of the word (although it was for the entire history of the state up until January this year)
Kidchameleon wrote: » It is a serious assault no doubt. The potential effects on a woman are worse though. The law and society's attitudes in general reflect that.
Mark Hamill wrote: » So rape of men isn't as bad as rape of women because they can't get pregnant? So, by that argument, is rape of post menstrual or sterile women not as bad as rape of fertile women? What about rape of pre-pubescent children?
Kidchameleon wrote: » Serious question: Would you deny a rape victim a late term abortion? And force her to give birth to her rapists child? Perhaps with the shock of her experience, perhaps denial of the situation, she only decided to abort at 40 weeks? Would you be happy to force her to give birth? To look at her child and see her rapist? To live her life with the knowledge that she left her child to adoption?
Kidchameleon wrote: » How many of that 10k just made terrible decisions? The majority I would imagine. I'm not judging the ones who need it for medical reasons/rape etc. but I am judging the ones who were just plain irresponsible / stupid.
....... wrote: » Can you detail out a bit of this opinion about women who were just plain irresponsible or stupid please? And what qualifies you to make a judgement on what constitutes a terrible decision. If you could back this opinion with some evidence on the actual reasons that women give for having abortions please.
robindch wrote: » Statistics from Russia indicate that - around ten years ago anyway - abortion remained a regular alternative to contraception - and abortions often outnumbered live births in the country.https://www.rferl.org/a/Abortion_Remains_Top_Birth_Control_Option_Russia/1145849.html
"Young women who think that having an abortion is an easy thing are wrong," Latypova tells RFE/RL's Tatar-Bashkir Service. "An abortion is not only an operation. It's a deep psychological trauma for a woman. This is an operation that causes a woman physical and moral pain. I don't think it's the right decision." Despite an abundance of new family-planning options, Latypova says lack of public awareness and prohibitive expenses -- like $25 monthly packs of birth control pills -- mean many women still see abortion as their only choice. "Students and young girls can't afford birth control. Many girls are afraid to talk about it with their mothers and ask for money," she says. "An unplanned pregnancy can cause them enormous stress. They immediately opt for an abortion, and don't even tell their parents or boyfriends."
Kidchameleon wrote: » Not questioning mods here but I just want to state that: "Look dude sorry for your loss" Was not meant to be disrespectful in anyway, it was simply colliquial language that I use every day. I genuinely hope that poster & family are ok. Im gonna leave here for now. It seems the echo chamber of A&A is not ready for harsh truths at this moment. Peace all.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Well lets not get into semantics. I understand it is not murder in the legal sense of the word (although it was for the entire history of the state up until January this year) forgive me if I use a word that has been in use to describe abortion for so many years I need to adjust! What abortion is without question is killing. It is killing when we abort a pregnancy in the first week, it is killing at 12 weeks, it is killing at 24 weeks and it is killing at 40 weeks. The only difference is how sentient the human life form is. I was given the example of a tapeworm earlier in the discussion. If I were to stamp on a tapeworm I would be killing it. Theres no getting away from that word. I beleive a woman has the right to kill a 40 week old child inside her body because it is just that - her body. She gets to make decisions about her body, not me not you and not the state.
volchitsa wrote: » Killing a tapeworm would not be state-endorsed murder though. Those were your words. Also if it is her body, is she committing state-endorsed "murder" of her own body? If it's a "child", as you said above, should she have the right to kill it? Ending the pregnancy doesn't necessarily mean the death of the child: at 40 weeks it's just an induced birth. So why do you think she should be allowed to kill this child, if that is what it is (and at 40 weeks I think it probably is)?
Kidchameleon wrote: » Well here we disagree. I believe that while the fetus/baby is in the woman's body, the fetus/baby is part of the woman's body. I believe in complete bodily autonomy, her body, her choice. It appears I am more pro choice than yourself. Thanks for your honesty in answering the question.
Mark Hamill wrote: » I'm not sure your point behind posting is [...] It agrees with eviltwin's point that abortion is painful, messy, traumatic and physically gruelling,
eviltwin wrote: » I'm so tired of this abortion for contraception argument. Clearly anyone who thinks that's how it will be used has never had an abortion.
robindch wrote: » Yes indeed, the article I quoted makes that very obvious point very well - a point which, as it applies during the later stages of pregnancy, I completely agree with. The point from eviltwin which I was replying to was the bit which I quoted which was eviltwin's claim that abortion is never used as contraception.Allowing for some fluidity of language, I'm afraid that's not really true in Russia where - owing to widespread poverty and an absence of government support - regular contraception is often not used, so when a woman becomes pregnant, the foetus is often aborted via pill to avoid having to deal with the hassle and cost of a real baby later on. In comparison to a later-term abortion, early-term abortion by pill is relatively cheap and trouble-free and - again allowing for some fluidity of language here - amounts to the use of abortion as a means of contraception. Also, my own fairly extensive experience of Russia over twenty years or so suggests that this is the case too - abortion seems to be considered a fairly normal part of life in that country and I don't ever recall any Russian person getting very worked up about it, except when it's denied.
volchitsa wrote: » Yes but you're ignoring the historical reasons for which abortion became the main method of contraception there : a very authoritarian government decided to create that situation rather than allow women to import the American-invented contraceptive pill.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Ill be banned if I discuss it further.... I wish there were less restrictive avenues of discussion...
robindch wrote: » I'll agree that if the Russian government spent less time being massively corrupt, less time invading its neighbours and less time and energy developing new atomic weapons, it would have more cash available for health programs including contraception - lack of cash for health care being the topic of ongoing protests in the country. eviltwin claimed that "abortion as contraception" never happens - the evidence suggests that it does, allowing for the fact that the claim, as originally worded, was very broad. Please feel free to make a more specific claim if you believe that the general claim is undecidable or excessively ambiguous as stated.
volchitsa wrote: » What makes you unable to explain why you are prochoice despite believing that abortion is state-enforced murder though? I mean, you've already made the statement, so no need to go over that again, you can just tell us why you're pro-choice despite it, right? What could you possibly be sanctioned for in an explanation of why you're pro-choice?
....... wrote: » I have received a private message from this poster inviting me to ask questions via pm. I would like to know why my previous questions have not been responded to, and why the poster wishes to continue the conversation "behind the scenes" rather than simply respond here? The questions I have already asked were asked in regards to a post made here, on a public forum, so I would appreciate a reply on the same media.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Could you quote the post where I made that statement please.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Ok. What questions would you like me to answer and I will answer them here.
....... wrote: » Can you detail out a bit of this opinion about women who were just plain irresponsible or stupid please?
....... wrote: » And what qualifies you to make a judgement on what constitutes a terrible decision.
....... wrote: » If you could back this opinion with some evidence on the actual reasons that women give for having abortions please.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Abortion cannot be used for contraception. If we are in abortion territory, it is already too late for prevention. Honestly, I do not have figures for how many of those 10k were for family planning reasons but any studies I have read regarding reasons for abortion procedures, rape / incest / heath risks tend to be the least likely reasons for abortion. Family planning (which is a very broad term of course) is over 90% of the time cited as the reason for aborting. I'd love to see figures for Ireland but I don't expect we will get them any time soon.https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/def...ll/3711005.pdfhttps://www.contraceptionjournal.org...fulltext#s0040
Kidchameleon wrote: » With so many options readily available for consenting adults to prevent pregnancy, it is my opinion that it is stupid an irresponsible to end up pregnant if it is unplanned. It is stupid in the sense that it is easy to prevent pregnancy - I and most other responsible adults have gone our whole adult lives without any unplanned pregnancy's. It is irresponsible in the sense that unplanned pregnancy's and everything that comes after, cause great emotional pain for the expectant parents and almost always, their immediate family, not to mention the burden on the tax payer that can result.
Call me a prude if you wish, but it is my opinion which I am entitled to as you are to yours. We all judge people daily, we are human.
....... wrote: » I have received a private message from this poster inviting me to ask questions via pm.
Kidchameleon wrote: » With all due respect, I believe I have already answered those questions but I will restate my answers. Please don't hesitate to seek clarification if I miss something.
Kidchameleon wrote: » With so many options readily available for consenting adults to prevent pregnancy, it is my opinion that it is stupid an irresponsible to end up pregnant if it is unplanned.
Contraceptive pill Combined contraceptive pill Perfect use: more than 99% effective . Fewer than 1 in 100 women will get pregnant in a year when using the combined pill correctly. Typical use: around 91% effective .Around 9 in 100 women using the combined pill will get pregnant in a year.
Kidchameleon wrote: » It is stupid in the sense that it is easy to prevent pregnancy - I and most other responsible adults have gone our whole adult lives without any unplanned pregnancy's.
Kidchameleon wrote: » It is irresponsible in the sense that unplanned pregnancy's and everything that comes after, cause great emotional pain for the expectant parents and almost always, their immediate family, not to mention the burden on the tax payer that can result.
Kidchameleon wrote: » It is not dissimilar to driving without a seat belt, it is just silly and irresponsible, in my opinion.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Call me a prude if you wish, but it is my opinion which I am entitled to as you are to yours. We all judge people daily, we are human.
Kidchameleon wrote: » I already did, see post #723
Can't afford a baby now; unemployed; can't afford basic needs of life; can't leave job to take care of baby; would have to find a new place to live; not enough financial support from partner; partner unemployed; on welfare; would interfere w/education or career plans; I'm a student or planning to study
Kidchameleon wrote: » Granted, these figures are not from Ireland (we will not have studies like this in Ireland for some years) but they were both carried out in a country with a very similar culture to Ireland. It is an educated guess on my part that the figures would be similar in Ireland although I cant say for sure.
There is little difference between the reasons women from Ireland present and the reasons women from the UK present; they are diverse and multifaceted. They may involve financial hardship, knowing one’s family is complete, inadequate partner or family support, domestic violence or simply a woman feeling she is not in a position to care for a baby at that point in her life. While some abortions take place of pregnancies that were planned and wanted, such as those for foetal anomaly, the majority of the women we see were trying to avoid pregnancy when they conceived. In fact, the majority of women from Ireland we treat were using some form of contraception when they conceived.
Kidchameleon wrote: » Lastly, I ask that you do not discuss any PM's I send you in public. I would imagine you would not like that done to yourself. Please treat others respectfully even if you disagree with them.
