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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes CMATS will do lots for truck movements, by removing a lot of the cars out of their way. CMATS will be quite forceful in it's push for modal shift. Expect a massive reduction in car journeys.

I really hope you're correct in the above.

My second concern is that at the moment there's a lot of poor quality sustainable transport infrastructure designs going into planning in the Cork area. Even without knowing the design manuals, you can see that that what they're proposing will be unusable. So someone needs to address the inability of the engineers to design for sustainable transport. They need to be retrained or removed.
The "paint-on-roads" and "detour onto the kerb" approaches used up to now will not succeed in gaining modal shift.

leahyl

Nobody seems to be talking about the state of the roads we have at present - is there a plan to resurface the lower Glanmire road from Kent Station all the way out to the dunkettle roundabout? It is absolutely shocking. That’s just one example and it happens to be one of the main entrances into the city. I tried looking up plans on the city council website but couldn’t find anything - was it Irish Water that left it the road in this state?

[Deleted User]

I'm still confused as to why utility companies are not given notice of when they can all work on a road, it's opened up, all companies use, and road repaired wholly (not in sinking trenches). Cost of road opening and repair spread across all companies then.

Outside this they need special permission and have to repair the entire stretch of road, at their own cost

Treviso

leahyl wrote: »

Nobody seems to be talking about the state of the roads we have at present - is there a plan to resurface the lower Glanmire road from Kent Station all the way out to the dunkettle roundabout? It is absolutely shocking. That’s just one example and it happens to be one of the main entrances into the city. I tried looking up plans on the city council website but couldn’t find anything - was it Irish Water that left it the road in this state?

How ironic that Irish Water, funded by Motor tax revenue, was the cause of the state of this road!

Anteayer

Irish Water aren't quite finished working on it yet. There's still on-going nightly works. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to surface it until they've made all the branch connections.

I agree though it's in an absolutely abysmal state and can't be left like that.

cgcsb

Treviso wrote: »

How ironic that Irish Water, funded by Motor tax revenue, was the cause of the state of this road!

What?

leahyl

http://https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Fears-broadband-overspend-could-hit-crucial-project-to-upgrade-Dunkettle-Interchange-56da209f-408a-4c02-9629-a0fe70a60167-ds

Treviso

cgcsb wrote: »

What?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/motor-tax-cash-used-to-fund-irish-water-30968852.html

Treviso

leahyl wrote: »

http://https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Fears-broadband-overspend-could-hit-crucial-project-to-upgrade-Dunkettle-Interchange-56da209f-408a-4c02-9629-a0fe70a60167-ds

Another overspend, what a surprise. How could they originally estimate that it would only cost between 355 and 512 million, everyone knew that wasn't possible. Now it's at 3 billion!

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

The vast bulk of trips start and end within the urban area and the vast bulk of those are journeys are under 10km long, CMATS will push the most of those journeys onto trams buses and bicycles. Demand management and closing junctions on the N40 will restore it to it's original function as a national road for long distance trips.

Overall CMATS will reduce car journeys rather than add more roads. Expect there to be some lip service to CNRR but until the M20 has some shovels in the ground, there won't be any need.

I don't understand this logic. What is now the N40 was built by the council, the part between J3 and J9 anyway, as a distributor road for the south of the city. When it was built the only national road it touched was the N71. Now it has grown up to be the M50's little brother in Cork, forms part of the TEN-T Core network and connects the N8, N22, N25, N27, N28 and N71.

But at its core, it still serves the distributor road function for the south of the city. The only junctions that could be remotely considered for closure are J5, J7 or J8 (which isn't even a junction, just one slip).

What is the planned closures? The J5 junction has a lot of industry around it

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

I don't understand this logic. What is now the N40 was built by the council, the part between J3 and J9 anyway, as a distributor road for the south of the city. When it was built the only national road it touched was the N71. Now it has grown up to be the M50's little brother in Cork, forms part of the TEN-T Core network and connects the N8, N22, N25, N27, N28 and N71.

But at its core, it still serves the distributor road function for the south of the city. The only junctions that could be remotely considered for closure are J5, J7 or J8 (which isn't even a junction, just one slip).

What is the planned closures? The J5 junction has a lot of industry around it

The original part was between Douglas and Kinsale Roundabout. The only national route it had a junction with was the old N28 which was previously routed through Douglas Village.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

I don't understand this logic. What is now the N40 was built by the council, the part between J3 and J9 anyway, as a distributor road for the south of the city. When it was built the only national road it touched was the N71. Now it has grown up to be the M50's little brother in Cork, forms part of the TEN-T Core network and connects the N8, N22, N25, N27, N28 and N71.

But at its core, it still serves the distributor road function for the south of the city. The only junctions that could be remotely considered for closure are J5, J7 or J8 (which isn't even a junction, just one slip).

What is the planned closures? The J5 junction has a lot of industry around it

Douglas and Tougher can be closed, a tolling system for non HGVs can manage demand couple that with widespread car bans and removal of street parking in the city and this will push a lot of car users onto buses trams and bikes. Most car trips in Cork are pitifully short distance, sustainable modes can hoover up here. CMATS will bring in a greater degree of modal shift than any of the Dublin plans which will only just about keep up with growing demand for public transport services.

[Deleted User]

Ummm OK

who_me

Treviso wrote: »

Another overspend, what a surprise. How could they originally estimate that it would only cost between 355 and 512 million, everyone knew that wasn't possible. Now it's at 3 billion!

I'd really love to know how these overspends happen. IMO for any major overspends, the detailed budgets and the reasons for any line-items going over budget should all be made public.

Not to shame anyone, or get someone fired. But I'd love to know why they can be so off in their estimates.

Are they not including any contingencies for unforeseen difficulties? If they're consistently doing so across so many projects, why not increase the contingency percentage at the start of every new project? Are the tenderers 'playing the game'? Are they low-balling the estimates and then happily overrunning on cost knowing they have the government (cough: taxpayer!) over a barrel and no project is going to be cancelled halfway through.

I don't mind mistakes happening, but mistakes repeatedly happening and no apparent steps happening to prevent it drives me insane.

ScrubsfanChris

cgcsb wrote: »

Douglas and Tougher can be closed, a tolling system for non HGVs can manage demand couple that with widespread car bans and removal of street parking in the city and this will push a lot of car users onto buses trams and bikes. Most car trips in Cork are pitifully short distance, sustainable modes can hoover up here. CMATS will bring in a greater degree of modal shift than any of the Dublin plans which will only just about keep up with growing demand for public transport services.

All three of those sliproads are at capacity during rush hours, and you think they should be closed?

[Deleted User]

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

All three of those sliproads are at capacity during rush hours, and you think they should be closed?

Never minding that they are the off ramps for people coming in from Midleton, Watergrasshill, Macroom etc.
Where is that traffic going to go? Public transport in Cork City Centre going to help them?

CMATS is for the city, it is not going to do jack for the commuter belt, who never actually go into the city.

Brussels Sprout

who_me wrote: »

Not to shame anyone, or get someone fired. But I'd love to know why they can be so off in their estimates.

I think the fact that this is off the table is actually part of the issue. In the private sector there's always the little bit of fear as a motivational factor not to mention that it's more of a meritocracy.

In the public sector there isn't much of an incentive to do a good job. Just clock up your increments and go for some promotions when you have seniority.

cgcsb

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

All three of those sliproads are at capacity during rush hours, and you think they should be closed?

I would agree they should be closed yes, the N40 shouldn't be accommodating to short car commutes.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

Never minding that they are the off ramps for people coming in from Midleton, Watergrasshill, Macroom etc.
Where is that traffic going to go? Public transport in Cork City Centre going to help them?

CMATS is for the city, it is not going to do jack for the commuter belt, who never actually go into the city.

CMATS = Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy, i.e. for the metropolitan area, not just the City Centre.

j8wk2feszrnpao

cgcsb wrote: »

I would agree they should be closed yes, the N40 shouldn't be accommodating to short car commutes.

Thankfully you are not in charge of such decisions.

cgcsb

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Thankfully you are not in charge of such decisions.

TheChizler

cgcsb wrote: »

I would agree they should be closed yes, the N40 shouldn't be accommodating to short car commutes.

About time Cork got a bypass :rolleyes:

ScrubsfanChris

cgcsb wrote: »

I would agree they should be closed yes, the N40 shouldn't be accommodating to short car commutes.

So a road around a city that that you can't get off? Who would use it?
What do you consider a short commute? (ie: most car journeys)

Why not have the motorway go straight from Cork to Dublin too, f*ck everyone in between :rolleyes:

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

Douglas and Tougher can be closed, a tolling system for non HGVs can manage demand couple that with widespread car bans and removal of street parking in the city and this will push a lot of car users onto buses trams and bikes. Most car trips in Cork are pitifully short distance, sustainable modes can hoover up here. CMATS will bring in a greater degree of modal shift than any of the Dublin plans which will only just about keep up with growing demand for public transport services.

"Can we have a north ring road?" No instead lets toll the South Ring road

This will never happen for political reasons. There is far too much industry around J5 (especially the likes of Musgraves), it's important for stadiums around there and it's also used by residents in the area.

J7 and J8 are a different story as they are half junctions or quarter junctions anyway, but I can't see them being closed without a fight.

The N40 is past the point of being a strategic route anymore for national traffic, it has far too much local importance. The North Ring road will be far more of strategic value and have less junctions

cgcsb

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

So a road around a city that that you can't get off? Who would use it?
What do you consider a short commute? (ie: most car journeys)

There are other exists.

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Why not have the motorway go straight from Cork to Dublin too, f*ck everyone in between :rolleyes:

Because urban commutes are different from intercity journeys.

ScrubsfanChris

cgcsb wrote: »

There are other exists.

That would put thousands more cars down the Rochestown and Frankfield roads, suburban areas.

Why remove the the exist in the first place? I don't at all understand your reasoning.

cgcsb

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

That would put thousands more cars down the Rochestown and Frankfield roads, suburban areas.

Why remove the the exist in the first place? I don't at all understand your reasoning.

Demand management, removing the exits means journeys have to be taken on different routes or not at all.

ScrubsfanChris

cgcsb wrote: »

Demand management, removing the exits means journeys have to be taken on different routes or not at all.

But why remove them? You still hven't answered that, Whats the benefit?

Putting more traffic onto urban streets shared with pedestrians and cyclists?
And that last point, yeah I bet loads of people would love to not have to take journeys to work :pac:

A complete ring road with multiple exits and would keep more vehicles out of the city and suburbs.

cgcsb

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

There by putting more traffic onto urban streets shared with pedestrians and cyclists?

No, rather more of that traffic becomes pedestrians and cyclists, or modal shift. This phenomenon is called traffic evaporation, it's well documented, there are some good online resources.

Years ago in the 60s and 70s, people thought of traffic the same way they think water in a pipe, a constant force that can be redirected, but in the past few years we've come to think of it as something much more complex.

Take Dublin City Centre for example, the space for cars was reduced over the past 20 years, the number of cars entering the city was reduced, but more people than ever travel into the City now, mostly without their car.

ScrubsfanChris

And also the first part of the project and the exits built on the south ring were the Douglas ones, so no idea where you're getting this statement from:

Demand management and closing junctions on the N40 will restore it to it's original function as a national road for long distance trips.