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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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squinn2912

Belfast marathon done today. 2:55:29 on watch. Measured 26.7 and talk of adjustment being made officially. Lead car went out wrong (incredibly). With the adjustment I should be in on 2:53 so new pb pending

healy1835

Great run mate......pity about the course situation.

shotgunmcos

So, I used the Hansons Advanced Plan and got a sub 3

2:58:50
Report in the log if interested or haven't read yet.

I don't know how many times I've gone over this thread, Its like a very good book on how to approach a sub3 in different ways! One thing I will stress though is you simply have to, through trial and error, find what works best for you.

Make the plan fit you, not you fit the plan. I tried 8 years ago twice to get sub3 and failed. This attempt was easily the most stripped back, most flexible but most disciplined approach yet and hey presto!

thomas anderson.

The easiest way to run a sub-3 is

Just run faster

Tigerandahalf

Am I right in that the Hanson's plan only goes as far as 16 miles for the long run.
I presume it is thus geared towards people with a solid 2 or 3 year base and towards people who are running a marathon < 9 months from the last 1.

thomas anderson.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Am I right in that the Hanson's plan only goes as far as 16 miles for the long run.
I presume it is thus geared towards people with a solid 2 or 3 year base and towards people who are running a marathon < 9 months from the last 1.

You need to know what it feels like to run 20+ miles, i think not knowing what its like is mental tbh

AuldManKing

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Am I right in that the Hanson's plan only goes as far as 16 miles for the long run.
I presume it is thus geared towards people with a solid 2 or 3 year base and towards people who are running a marathon < 9 months from the last 1.

No - Hansons have a number of plans - the lower mileage ones 'can' only go up to 16 miles.

They also prescribe that the long run should be 25% of your weekly mileage.

I have a Hanson plan that goes upto 80 MPW and has 6x20 mile runs and an additional 6x18 miles in the weeks before that.

Not quite what some people expect as the 'headline' is always about the '16 mpw'

Tigerandahalf

thomas anderson. wrote: »

You need to know what it feels like to run 20+ miles, i think not know what its like is mental tbh

Ya I agree. In my previous marathon I ran upto 24 miles and I felt it helped me greatly on the day. The pain and tiredness in your legs over those last few miles is hard to replicate otherwise.

@auldmanking
So if 25% you would be running a 64 mile week with that 16 mile long run. Plenty of mileage there in fairness.

Duanington

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ya I agree. In my previous marathon I ran upto 24 miles and I felt it helped me greatly on the day. The pain and tiredness in your legs over those last few miles is hard to replicate otherwise.

@auldmanking
So if 25% you would be running a 64 mile week with that 16 mile long run. Plenty of mileage there in fairness.

Knowing a few people that have used that same plan with a degree of success, I wouldn't class it as low mileage. Some of the sessions are tough and the long run isn't a classic "time on your feet" run from memory, there's more focus on running at a prescribed pace. Lots of focus on strength and running on tired legs etc....

It makes total sense when you look at the plan as a whole because its a hell of a lot more than "just" the 16 mile run

shotgunmcos

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ya I agree. In my previous marathon I ran upto 24 miles and I felt it helped me greatly on the day. The pain and tiredness in your legs over those last few miles is hard to replicate otherwise.

@auldmanking
So if 25% you would be running a 64 mile week with that 16 mile long run. Plenty of mileage there in fairness.

I put a summary of it in my log - yes 25% of 64m is 16m. Plus the LR pace is MP-30-40 secs

Its all relative. Up to 24m would not just risk injury mid plan but it has a high recovery cost too. Obviously within a 120 mile a week plan that's a different thing but 24m in a 6 day a week 55-70m plan that has 2 other workouts a week is very risky IMO.

Tigerandahalf

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I put a summary of it in my log - yes 25% of 64m is 16m. Plus the LR pace is MP-30-40 secs

Its all relative. Up to 24m would not just risk injury mid plan but it has a high recovery cost too. Obviously within a 120 mile a week plan that's a different thing but 24m in a 6 day a week 55-70m plan that has 2 other workouts a week is very risky IMO.

Do you really need 2 workouts a week though for marathon prep? It is not going long that will injure but the faster stuff.

It is all relative. I guess once you are running a good volume consistently you have the chance.

thomas anderson.

Its always the V02 or Fartlek workouts, where I pick up my injuries, never the long runs.

shotgunmcos

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Do you really need 2 workouts a week though for marathon prep? It is not going long that will injure but the faster stuff.

It is all relative. I guess once you are running a good volume consistently you have the chance.

The 2 workouts are not both intervals. Tuesday is speed reps at 5-10k pace and Thursday is MP tempo. X miles @MP. They both hurt in different ways.

There has to be something in it because my diet of Long Runs was
2x16m and 2x18m. Total 4. That was it.

Tigerandahalf

You didn't go very long nor do many of them.
Did you struggle over the last 6?

RayCun

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Did you struggle over the last 6?

If you don't struggle over the last 6 you weren't running fast enough :pac:

yaboya1

thomas anderson. wrote: »

Its always the V02 or Fartlek workouts, where I pick up my injuries, never the long runs.

Probably because you haven't recovered from your 20+m long run

Duanington

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

You didn't go very long nor do many of them.
Did you struggle over the last 6?

18 miles looks longer than most Hansen plan marathoners I've come across. Remember, this is not a typical long run - its at MP+30 secs ( I think?) and is assuming you've built some fatigue in over the course of the plan with the other sessions

Murph_D

thomas anderson. wrote: »

You need to know what it feels like to run 20+ miles, i think not knowing what its like is mental tbh

But anyone who’s run a Marathon before knows what this feels like. Less important after the first time around surely?

shotgunmcos

Duanington wrote: »

18 miles looks longer than most Hansen plan marathoners I've come across. Remember, this is not a typical long run - its at MP-30 secs ( I think?) and is assuming you've built some fatigue in over the course of the plan with the other sessions

Exactly

The last 18m I did (at 7:27 pace vs Goal pace 6:55) was on a Sunday after
7 Miles easy Thursday, 14m with 10@ MP Friday and 8 mile easy Saturday. With the residual fatigue from another session that Tuesday etc..

thomas anderson.

yaboya1 wrote: »

Probably because you haven't recovered from your 20+m long run

I wouldnt say so, usually leave the faster stuff to mid-week. More likely worn shoes and concrete just dont mix

Murph_D wrote: »

But anyone who’s run a Marathon before knows what this feels like. Less important after the first time around surely?

I dont think so. If you are doing subsequent marathons then you are probably wanting to go faster, so you still need to know how your body is going to react to doing lets say 6:30 miles for the last 6 miles compared to say 7:00 's.

When I train, I do a 20+ mile every Sunday with different type sessions i.e 5m on + 5 off, pyramids runs or just a slow jog. Each week is different and I think it pays dividends on race day.

But what I have learned is to not take advice from anyone and just do your own thing, just dont let the plans rule you or your training.

Tigerandahalf

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Exactly

The last 18m I did (at 7:27 pace vs Goal pace 6:55) was on a Sunday after
7 Miles easy Thursday, 14m with 10@ MP Friday and 8 mile easy Saturday. With the residual fatigue from another session that Tuesday etc..

That is a tough few days. I wonder do these type of plans favour quick recoverers as that 14m on a Friday with another 18m 2 days later is asking a lot. An injury risk?
You would really need a good base for that.

No harm in looking at different approaches I
guess.

What sort of pace are you running the easy paced Thurs/Sat runs at?

shotgunmcos

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That is a tough few days. I wonder do these type of plans favour quick recoverers as that 14m on a Friday with another 18m 2 days later is asking a lot. An injury risk?
You would really need a good base for that.

No harm in looking at different approaches I
guess.

What sort of pace are you running the easy paceed Thurs/Sat runs at?

That's a good question! I was surprised how I was able to recover from the 14 Friday to do 18 Sunday and back to reps Tuesday. The legs just kept taking it.

3 things
1. After nearly every session I had a recovery shake. 1-2 Bananas , 1 Tbsp whey protein power, ITbsp raw cacao powder, 2Tbsp greek yogurt, 1 tsp nutella, honey and coconut milk into a nutri bullet and down the neck before the shower. Or quick poached egg on toast. Basically get protein on asap
2. While I didn't have a recent running base, I have done all sorts of mad endurance stuff over the years that my legs had to deal with. Call it non specific muscle memory of pain and suffering

3. Mondays were always on the recovery end of easy

Lastly doing the 2 mile cool down from sessions really helped to loosen the legs before I got home. I treated them as real cool downs, looking to stretch tightened calves, hammers and quads.

On Sunday after the marathon my legs were in bits but between walking back up town to collect my bag, downtown to the pub and 2 miles home after a few beers (all in 4 miles walking) they felt much better. The walking had that same effect of flushing out the lactic and stretching particularly the hamstrings.

Its different for everyone but I was genuinely surprised at the workload I could handle and significantly, not getting injury as is progressively got harder.

Tigerandahalf

That was the Hansen plan?

shotgunmcos

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That was the Hansen plan?

Yes Hanson Advanced (attached)

Swashbuckler

shotgunmcos wrote:

Yes Hanson Advanced (attached)

Did you rearrange the day off to be on Wednesdays to suit your schedule or was that per original plan? And would moving that day around mess with the overall target of the plan?

shotgunmcos

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Did you rearrange the day off to be on Wednesdays to suit your schedule or was that per original plan? And would moving that day around mess with the overall target of the plan?

Hey P. That was the actual plan. Honestly I don't see a problem with moving it.

The pattern was Thursday to Tuesday. 6 run over 6 days. Session, easy, easy, session, easy, session, day off and repeat..

You could apply that to Monday to Saturday and take Sunday off. Essentially you would be starting Monday with the MP tempo and finishing with speed intervals on Saturday. Your Long Run would then be Mid week. I can see that working (if you can stomach LR midweek) for the whol plan until you get to the last 3 weeks. You would have to slowly swing it around to match your Marathon day.

Also if your Marathon is on Sunday and that is usually your day off you are sort of out of sync so that's something to think about.

The format of the 6 days is specific to build the cumulative fatigue. If you chop and change that around then you lose that principle and thus the ethos of the plan.

What I really learned from the method was how to slowly build the fatigue and manage your energy and recovery etc.. much like the actual management of a marathon itself. It being my first time using the pan, I was freaking out a little that I was tired so often, particularly when it was 3 and 2 weeks to go.

shotgunmcos

Another quick note on the Hansons Long Runs

The advance plan prescribed one every 2nd week form week 7

Week 7: 14m@ MP +30secs
Week 9: 15m@ MP +30secs
Week 11: 16m @MP +30secs
Week 13: 16m @MP +30secs
Week 15: 16m @MP +30secs

What I actually did:

Week 7: 14m @ MP +30secs including 2m @MP
Week 9: 15m @ MP +30secs
Week 12: 14m @ MP +30secs including 2m, 3m, 5m @MP
Week 13: 18m @ MP +40secs
Week 14: 16m Easy
Week 15: 18m @ MP +30secs including last mile @ MP-10secs

I missed week 11 due to flu.
Put MP effort (HR not pace) into week 12 to see where I was at.
Kept week 14 easy as it was between my 2 longest LR weeks.

Edit: Just to note, I only spiced up the LRs a little. All other sessions, speed, strength and tempo were as per the plan.

TRR_the_turd

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Another quick note on the Hansons Long Runs

The advance plan prescribed one every 2nd week form week 7

Week 7: 14m@ MP -30secs
Week 9: 15m@ MP -30secs
Week 11: 16m @MP -30secs
Week 13: 16m @MP -30secs
Week 15: 16m @MP -30secs

What I actually did:

Week 7: 14m @ MP -30secs including 2m @MP
Week 9: 15m @ MP -30secs
Week 12: 14m @ MP -30secs including 2m, 3m, 5m @MP
Week 13: 18m @ MP -40secs
Week 14: 16m Easy
Week 15: 18m @ MP -30secs including last mile @ MP-10secs

I missed week 11 due to flu.
Put MP effort (HR not pace) into week 12 to see where I was at.
Kept week 14 easy as it was between my 2 longest LR weeks.

Edit: Just to note, I only spiced up the LRs a little. All other sessions, speed, strength and tempo were as per the plan.

When you say MP -30 seconds, do you mean -30 seconds over the entire duration of the run or 30 seconds quicker than marathon pace per mile?

shotgunmcos

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

When you say MP -30 seconds, do you mean -30 seconds over the entire duration of the run or 30 seconds quicker than marathon pace per mile?

That should all be MP + 30 sec per mile!

healy1835

Was sending an outline of my training for DCM last year to a mate, said I'd post it here. Some of it may be of use to someone

ran 2:58, but was definitely in faster shape.