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"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the S" - Spoilers post 2 fo

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Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

This is ONLY about the specific episode! No information from any other source but listed below are allowed to be posted but book related information is allowed as well as the lore from the DVDs. Anything relating to interviews or articles directly related to this episode can be posted with a spoiler tag.

The "Next Episode" and any speculation on what may come in the future episodes should be put in the appropriate stickied Season 8 speculation thread; any funny pictures from the episode should be posted in this thread until Wednesday rather than the funny picture thread.

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threeball

I think I'd echo alot of what is being said by other posters. They look like they sat down and tried to figure out how to wrap this up in 6 episodes. Decided that they couldn't follow any major story line due to time constraints so crammed about 3 final stories into the time available stretching the join the dots versions as far as they could then filling the rest with rubbish you wouldn't see on daytime soaps.

It's all very predictable too. I turned to the wife and said one of the dragons would be shot down here as soon as I saw them flying towards Dragonstone. Not 10 seconds later he was in the drink. It doesn't throw any curveballs any more. You can tell where things are heading 5 mins before they happen and it's not even interesting. You kind of knew the Sept was going to blow a few seasons back but at least the lead up was great tv.

biggebruv

Sittingpretty wrote: »

I’m now thinking Rhaegal isn’t dead.

The scene where Cersei asked Euron if he was sure about the dragon seemed a little out of place for me if we were to naturally assume the dragon was, in fact, definitely dead.

Well I would hope but jaysus a big F—k off arrow through the neck seems like instant death to me lol

Twenty Grand

It's a shame they spent so much time pricking around with unnecessary storylines (Grey Worm and Missandei, some of Theons stuff, a lot of Slavers bay stuff) I know each season needs a particular cadence and rhythm, but to run out of time after 7 seasons and have to cram EVERYTHING into the 8th is a shame.

I suppose it's the problem of having two concurrent but separate enemies, Cersei and the WW. They'd want both to finish simultaneously, but how can you when there's so much to do and they're at opposite ends of the continent.

I suppose the books could do it more fluidly, but I suppose TV just can't cope with the whole, "Bang we're in the North fighting WW, Bang we're in the south fighting Cersei"

biggebruv

threeball wrote: »

I think I'd echo alot of what is being said by other posters. They look like they sat down and tried to figure out how to wrap this up in 6 episodes. Decided that they couldn't follow any major story line due to time constraints so crammed about 3 final stories into the time available stretching the join the dots versions as far as they could then filling the rest with rubbish you wouldn't see on daytime soaps.

It's all very predictable too. I turned to the wife and said one of the dragons would be shot down here as soon as I saw them flying towards Dragonstone. Not 10 seconds later he was in the drink. It doesn't throw any curveballs any more. You can tell where things are heading 5 mins before they happen and it's not even interesting. You kind of knew the Sept was going to blow a few seasons back but at least the lead up was great tv.

So did you predicted the white walkers and nk would be done early season?

Twenty Grand

biggebruv wrote: »

So did you predicted the white walkers and nk would be done early season?

Not really early. Half way through.

lawlolawl

threeball wrote: »

I think I'd echo alot of what is being said by other posters. They look like they sat down and tried to figure out how to wrap this up in 6 episodes. Decided that they couldn't follow any major story line due to time constraints so crammed about 3 final stories into the time available stretching the join the dots versions as far as they could then filling the rest with rubbish you wouldn't see on daytime soaps.

It's all very predictable too. I turned to the wife and said one of the dragons would be shot down here as soon as I saw them flying towards Dragonstone. Not 10 seconds later he was in the drink. It doesn't throw any curveballs any more. You can tell where things are heading 5 mins before they happen and it's not even interesting. You kind of knew the Sept was going to blow a few seasons back but at least the lead up was great tv.

Are you also playing the fun game of predicting exactly what certain characters are going to say before they say it?

It's fairly easy now that they are all based on memes.

hullaballoo

The exchange beside the old tree with the Starks +1 got to me in a big way.

Sansa: "We're family... you're a Stark"
Jon: *looks*
Bran: "It's your choice..."

No, it's not anymore. It was Jon's choice but unless Sansa, the cleverest person in Westeros (as we have been repeatedly told throughout the season), is now somehow at Hodor levels of Hodor Hodor, she will have picked up on something there, Bran.

F*cking stupid stuff altogether.

alchemist33

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I suppose it's the problem of having two concurrent but separate enemies, Cersei and the WW. They'd want both to finish simultaneously, but how can you when there's so much to do and they're at opposite ends of the continent.

I suspect GRRM would be able to, if the books ever finish, or quite a lot if good writers would have been able to. Unless there's a major twist coming it's become march-fight-march-fight to the end.

is_that_so

biggebruv wrote: »

So did you predicted the white walkers and nk would be done early season?

Well, it was set up for two big battles so not a lot of guessing required, plus his Achilles heel was so well-flagged. Once he went down game over.

RickBlaine

Regarding the teleportation, didn't the very first episode of the first season have Jaime and Cercei in both King's Landing and Winterfell. I think it was even mentioned that the journey took a month.

Twenty Grand

RickBlaine wrote: »

Regarding the teleportation, didn't the very first episode of the first season have Jaime and Cercei in both King's Landing and Winterfell. I think it was even mentioned that the journey took a month.

Yep.
Even the books have a disclaimer that chapters and events don't happen concurrently or at the same pace.

Paddy Cow

RickBlaine wrote: »

Regarding the teleportation, didn't the very first episode of the first season have Jaime and Cercei in both King's Landing and Winterfell. I think it was even mentioned that the journey took a month.

In the first season when Robert rode to Winterfell, Cersei said they'd been riding for a month. That was taking their time with a massive entourage. It's conceivable that a lone rider would make the journey quicker, but it should still take about three weeks.

RickBlaine

Paddy Cow wrote: »

In the first season when Robert rode to Winterfell, Cersei said they'd been riding for a month. That was taking their time with a massive entourage. It's conceivable that a lone rider would make the journey quicker, but it should still take about three weeks.

I probably wasn't clear. I was trying to point out that characters have covered huge distances in a single episode since the very start of the show.

namloc1980

RickBlaine wrote: »

Regarding the teleportation, didn't the very first episode of the first season have Jaime and Cercei in both King's Landing and Winterfell. I think it was even mentioned that the journey took a month.

Yes they clearly mentioned that it took a month. Whereas now it's instantaneous with no effort to give any sense of scale or time.

nix

The only redeeming thing this show can actually do at this point for me, is Sansa being eaten by the dragon.. Thats all im praying for at this point, she has just been an annoying twat from start to finish. :pac:

Romaine

hullaballoo wrote: »

The exchange beside the old tree with the Starks +1 got to me in a big way.

Sansa: "We're family... you're a Stark"
Jon: *looks*
Bran: "It's your choice..."

No, it's not anymore. It was Jon's choice but unless Sansa, the cleverest person in Westeros (as we have been repeatedly told throughout the season), is now somehow at Hodor levels of Hodor Hodor, she will have picked up on something there, Bran.

F*cking stupid stuff altogether.

I assumed Bran knew it needed to be said and knew what Jon was going to say before he said it.

Mr Crispy

nix wrote: »

The only redeeming thing this show can actually do at this point for me, is Sansa being eaten by the dragon.. Thats all im praying for at this point, she has just been an annoying twat from start to finish. :pac:

I think she's been grand lately. There are far more annoying characters in it than a world-weary Sansa.

[Deleted User]

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Have you honestly ever ridden on the back of dragon before? You obviously have no idea what a difficult manoeuvre that is.

People who have never ridden on a dragon before should not be allowed post such things. It is very unfair on Daenerys Targaryen's riding abilities. Until you know how difficult it is you should just keep your opinions to yourself, ok ?

Is this sarcasm...?

biggebruv

alchemist33 wrote: »

I suspect GRRM would be able to, if the books ever finish, or quite a lot if good writers would have been able to. Unless there's a major twist coming it's become march-fight-march-fight to the end.

I don’t think it’s fair to compare how GRRM will finish it vs how D&D finish it
GRRM has the luxury of time too much time if you ask me seems he will never finish it.
D&D would be under massive pressure to deliver a decent send off ready to enter production ASAP and get to air ASAP look at the uproar people had when they found out they would have to wait even longer for S8 because of the 2 huge battles

And yeah time jumping happened a lot in s1 aswell in 1 scene the dire wolves were puppy’s in the next they were shot up so fast.

TerrorFirmer

That's irrelevant really. People's general issue isn't with the basic narrative. It's with the shoddy, lazy writing that screams "let's just get this thing over with" (that tends to dump on what came before it) that's the issue.

Would they ever have written an ending as comphrehensive, as deep, as unrelentingly dark and unforgiving as GRRM himself would likely produce? Of course not.

But they're capable of much better than what we're getting - they have an end point and they're racing too it in horrendously sloppy fashion, with illogical behavior, weak dialogue, massive inconsistencies, pacing issues, and everything else. Things that either didn't happen, or happened far less frequently, even in seasons that these guys largely penned themselves without GRRM material to work from (even putting aside the tremendous S1-S4).

If they felt they weren't up to the task (due to indifference or fatigue, or whatever), they should have hired extra help or taken a step back and served in a lesser role.

Fundemtally, we know they are perfectly capable of so much better. It's what so intensely infuriating about this season. The back to back duo of Battle of the Bastards/Winds of Winter in S6 are pretty solid, infinitely better and more logically scripted and completely written by the same guys.

Don't know why they seem to have blatantly stopped caring half as much as they used to.

J. Marston

I really like Sansa. Her arc (that word again...) has been brilliantly done throughout the show, in my opinion.

[Deleted User]

And the fact that they have the neck to do those interviews after it too..they think the audience are idiots..

TerrorFirmer

Deleted User wrote: »

And the fact that they have the neck to do those interviews after it too..they think the audience are idiots..

Those interviews are actually pouring gas on a fire at this point.

Who honestly OK'd David Benioff casually saying "Dany sort of forgot about the Iron Fleet"?

That fleet she's had numerous run in's with, the fleet that has dealth enormous damage to her cause.

The fleet she participated in a conversation about a few minutes before hand in the war-room where the Iron Fleet was singled out as a major block in Cersei's forces.

As part of a script, that Dave Benioff wrote himself.

But he comes out with that line? "She kind of forgot?" And no-one thought to revisit it?

The whole thing is starting to smell a bit of the Star Wars prequels really, where George Lucas was given way too much unchallenged control over every aspect of the production.

valoren

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

And the fact that they have the neck to do those interviews after it too..they think the audience are idiots..

Those interviews are actually pouring gas on a fire at this point.

Who honestly OK'd David Benioff casually saying "Dany sort of forgot about the Iron Fleet"?

That fleet she's had numerous run in's with, the fleet that has dealth enormous damage to her cause.

The fleet she participated in a conversation about a few minutes before hand in the war-room where the Iron Fleet was singled out as a major block in Cersei's forces.

As part of a script, that Dave Benioff wrote himself.

But he comes out with that line? "She kind of forgot?" And no-one thought to revisit it?

The whole thing is starting to smell a bit of the Star Wars prequels really, where George Lucas was given way too much unchallenged control over every aspect of the production.

It feels like watching Prometheus for me. So much potential with a strong legacy but was ultimately a beautiful looking film with an incredibly weak join the dots script and plot with too many characters.

Paddy Cow

biggebruv wrote: »

I don’t think it’s fair to compare how GRRM will finish it vs how D&D finish it
GRRM has the luxury of time too much time if you ask me seems he will never finish it.
D&D would be under massive pressure to deliver a decent send off ready to enter production ASAP and get to air ASAP look at the uproar people had when they found out they would have to wait even longer for S8 because of the 2 huge battles

And yeah time jumping happened a lot in s1 aswell in 1 scene the dire wolves were puppy’s in the next they were shot up so fast.

I would have agreed with everything you said up to this week. I was a massive supporter of the show and when people said that the quality dipped with the books, I was the first to blame Martin for not providing decent story lines they could work on. The show did improve on some things but they have really dropped the ball.

D&D are obviously under pressure but apparently everyone else except them wanted to have two full seasons. They thought they could tell the story in 6 episodes. Everyone else disagreed, so that's on them. They're ego's got out of control. I was willing to overlook all the glaring plot holes in last weeks episode, thinking it was a massive battle that would be hard to get right and I was looking forward to this week when we would get back to the real Game of Thrones but there was too much "made for tv shock value/the audience needs to pretend reality doesn't exist for the sake of entertainment"

Anyone can see that the way Dany got ambushed by Euron and lost Rhaegal as a result was just stupid. Rhaegal was hit with pinpoint accuracy twice but then they couldn't hit Drogon when Dany dive bombed the entire fleet. After all the bows had been released and Euron's army were vulnerable, Dany should've BBQ'd the lot of them but she didn't. She retreated. It was all very silly. And how do the show runners explain this? "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet." That's so beyond stupid it's insulting to the watcher considering the Iron Fleet were part of her tactical talks with her advisors.

I'm sorry but what ever pressure D&D are under is a pressure of their own making. HBO would've been fine milking it for 10 seasons. They stupidly trusted D&D who still think they have made a great show. They are convinced they've told a great story but we can see that's bullsh!t with their behinds the scene waffle. Last week they said the Dothraki were done. This week we're told that half survived. They also tried to say that Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet. Lol.

We can bitch and moan about their inconsistencies on boards and some like you will make allowances for their mistakes but I imagine the higher ups will be looking at this cluster fcuk and deciding that they shouldn't be hired again.

OneOfThem Stumbled

On its own merits this episode is actually okay. Far from flawless, but okay. If this was season 5, that would be fine. The problem is that it's being used to create a "bittersweet" ending. It's moving the pieces into place, but it's confusing pawns for knights.

lawlolawl

uncleoswald

Your obsession with the offhand line of "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" suggests you are a very literal person aren't you?

Chris_Heilong

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I would have agreed with everything you said up to this week. I was a massive supporter of the show and when people said that the quality dipped with the books, I was the first to blame Martin for not providing decent story lines they could work on. The show did improve on some things but they have really dropped the ball.

D&D are obviously under pressure but apparently everyone else except them wanted to have two full seasons. They thought they could tell the story in 6 episodes. Everyone else disagreed, so that's on them. They're ego's got out of control. I was willing to overlook all the glaring plot holes in last weeks episode, thinking it was a massive battle that would be hard to get right and I was looking forward to this week when we would get back to the real Game of Thrones but there was too much "made for tv shock value/the audience needs to pretend reality doesn't exist for the sake of entertainment"

Anyone can see that the way Dany got ambushed by Euron and lost Rhaegal as a result was just stupid. Rhaegal was hit with pinpoint accuracy twice but then they couldn't hit Drogon when Dany dive bombed the entire fleet. After all the bows had been released and Euron's army were vulnerable, Dany should've BBQ'd the lot of them but she didn't. She retreated. It was all very silly. And how do the show runners explain this? "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet." That's so beyond stupid it's insulting to the watcher considering the Iron Fleet were part of her tactical talks with her advisors.

I'm sorry but what ever pressure D&D are under is a pressure of their own making. HBO would've been fine milking it for 10 seasons. They stupidly trusted D&D who still think they have made a great show. They are convinced they've told a great story but we can see that's bullsh!t with their behinds the scene waffle. Last week they said the Dothraki were done. This week we're told that half survived. They also tried to say that Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet. Lol.

We can bitch and moan about their inconsistencies on boards and some like you will make allowances for their mistakes but I imagine the higher ups will be looking at this cluster fcuk and deciding that they shouldn't be hired again.

It is all about spectacle now and not about interesting characters, all the characters are totally different now than they were 3 seasons ago. If D&D are so bored and wanted to do other things they should have handed the show to someone else who actually cares about crafting a character driven story.

delly

A lot of good points made and I would echo the overall disappointment level. One major aspect as well is the delivery of season 7, it was just so damn good. Season 8 is bad enough, but to follow such a great season just compounds the level of disappointment.