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NIMBYS bully their way over Barrow Blueway

road_high

What a fantastic boon this could have been to St. Mullins, Graig and surrounds. Such a beautiful part of the country with massive potential to draw in visitors. It could have linked in with the planned New Ross and Waterford greenways, bringing a new type of tourism to the south east.
But alas no, a vocal group of NIMBYs who want to keep the area to themselves (ie Olivia O'Leary who lives closeby) got to bully their way and POV on top of everyone else. They'll be the very ones whinging there's nothing in rural Ireland.

https://kclr96fm.com/co-kilkenny-town-reacts-to-barrow-blueway-permission-refusal

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HenryWoods

I must have passed a dozen cyclists, 10 fishermen and maybe up to 40 people walking the Barrow Track yesterday between Clashganny and Btown.
Walking the lush green grass in the glorious sunshine is heaven as opposed to sitting indoor growling at the internet.

ScallionAyter

HenryWoods wrote: »

I must have passed a dozen cyclists, 10 fishermen and maybe up to 40 people walking the Barrow Track yesterday between Clashganny and Btown.
Walking the lush green grass in the glorious sunshine is heaven as opposed to sitting indoor growling at the internet.

I walked the towpath from Maganey bridge back into Carlow town two weeks ago. I got chatting to a couple over from Wicklow, on their bikes. They set out from Athy but had to turn back just before the Knockbeg section because the going was too difficult on uncut grass. That means they didn't make it to Carlow as planned, they didn't get to rest in the town, or spend some money before cycling back.

Your anecdote about how easy it is to cycle the towpath is absolute bollocks.

road_high

ScallionAyter wrote: »

I walked the towpath from Maganey bridge back into Carlow town two weeks ago. I got chatting to a couple over from Wicklow, on their bikes. They set out from Athy but had to turn back just before the Knockbeg section because the going was too difficult on uncut grass. That means they didn't make it to Carlow as planned, they didn't get to rest in the town, or spend some money before cycling back.

Your anecdote about how easy it is to cycle the towpath is absolute bollocks.

There's little point arguing with these people- their minds are closed to development and how this could be such a boon to the area- they don't want to hear it. Which is why the relevant authorities need to push on with this project taking on board (valid) concerns and work for the greater good, not just a pack of vocal NIMBYs stuck in the past.

HenryWoods

>Your anecdote about how easy it is to cycle the towpath is absolute bollocks.

The grass has been cut South of Carlow. 20 mile or so of towpath is easy to navigate. It took me just 2 hours to get to St Mullins.

Go whinge to the 'North Barrow IWAI' on Fbook, they're part of Waterways Ireland. They're out planting apple trees on that stretch of the river as part of the pathetic response for the mass tree cutting at Leighlin.

ScallionAyter

HenryWoods wrote: »

>Your anecdote about how easy it is to cycle the towpath is absolute bollocks.

The grass has been cut South of Carlow. 20 mile or so of towpath is easy to navigate. It took me just 2 hours to get to St Mullins.

Go whinge to the 'North Barrow IWAI' on Fbook, they're part of Waterways Ireland. They're out planting apple trees on that stretch of the river as part of the pathetic response for the mass tree cutting at Leighlin.

Guess what? If a hard surface was laid, there's be no need to cut grass! and you'd be able to walk or cycle your little legs off all four seasons of the year.

What good is complaining to someone about the length of the grass after you've had to turn back due to the length of it? A hard surface gives certainty for someone planning to cycle the entire towpath on a cycling holiday; even if it rains; even if the council forget to cut grass. It's also safer. There are sections of the towpath where you can't see where your foot is going, never mind a bike tyre.

But you haven't thought of any of that, because you're like the Brexiters - you haven't listened to experts, or facts, or experiences elsewhere. You just know you're aginn' it, and that's good enough for you.

I've shown you where you're wrong. You've response is to complain to someone on Facebook. Pathetic.

Mocadonna

road_high wrote: »

There's little point arguing with these people- their minds are closed to development and how this could be such a boon to the area- they don't want to hear it. Which is why the relevant authorities need to push on with this project taking on board (valid) concerns and work for the greater good, not just a pack of vocal NIMBYs stuck in the past.

By "the authorities?" I assume you mean Waterways Ireland as Carlow Co Co rejected it last year as did ABP.

Have you read An Bord Pleanala's decision? What is it within that that you disagree with or do you want to just keep calling people who dont agree with you names? People were against it for a variety of reasons. Personally I think they should market it as a long distance walking route, can leave the surface and landscape as is and still attract visitors. It just doesn't seem wide enough to have cyclists 2 abreast coming at each other along with fishermen and walkers to me, particularly alongside a river (and an engineers report commissioned by Kildare Co co backs this up). If that makes me a NIMBY in your eyes so be it.

road_high

Mocadonna wrote: »

By "the authorities?" I assume you mean Waterways Ireland as Carlow Co Co rejected it last year as did ABP.

Have you read An Bord Pleanala's decision? What is it within that that you disagree with or do you want to just keep calling people who dont agree with you names? People were against it for a variety of reasons. Personally I think they should market it as a long distance walking route, can leave the surface and landscape as is and still attract visitors. It just doesn't seem wide enough to have cyclists 2 abreast coming at each other along with fishermen and walkers to me, particularly alongside a river (and an engineers report commissioned by Kildare Co co backs this up). If that makes me a NIMBY in your eyes so be it.

People didn’t really know why there’re against it in the end- they were led up the garden path by a vocal group of protagonists in the form of Olivia Oleary who don’t want the risk of the great unwashed anywhere near their private properties- the “concerns” about trees and grass paths were smoke and mirrors to deflect and give them a legitimate vehicle to object.
In essence you seem to agree with the project but stuck on the notion of leaving a grass muddy track surface- bizzare.

Mocadonna

road_high wrote: »

People didn’t really know why there’re against it in the end- they were led up the garden path by a vocal group of protagonists in the form of Olivia Oleary who don’t want the risk of the great unwashed anywhere near their private properties- the “concerns” about trees and grass paths were smoke and mirrors to deflect and give them a legitimate vehicle to object.
In essence you seem to agree with the project but stuck on the notion of leaving a grass muddy track surface- bizzare.

I know exactly why I was against it and I outlined a reason to you which you ignored, and instead put words in my mouth which you then called bizarre.

Many others knew exactly why they were against it also, and to dismiss everyone as getting sucked in by smoke and mirrors while you alone can see the light is condescending in the extreme. I doubt ABP were swayed by Olivia O Leary and instead actually looked for evidence it would not damage wildlife habitats, which Waterways Ireland were unable to adequately supply, therefore plan rejected. Again have you read the report and what in it do you disagree with?

coathanger

whisky_galore wrote: »

Good.

You can still walk it, so it's not like it's closed off to you.
I don't see why every single wild area or trail has to be sanitised, plastered with concrete and tarmac to please cyclists and others (as if there arent any existing greenways and 100s if not 1000s of km of quiet roads they can use any day of the week)

Well said, totally agree with your point of view. Why must everything be geared towards cyclists , who pass by the flora & fauna at speed , with little or no regard to their beautiful surroundings.

ScallionAyter

Mocadonna wrote: »

I know exactly why I was against it and I outlined a reason to you which you ignored, and instead put words in my mouth which you then called bizarre.

Many others knew exactly why they were against it also, and to dismiss everyone as getting sucked in by smoke and mirrors while you alone can see the light is condescending in the extreme. I doubt ABP were swayed by Olivia O Leary and instead actually looked for evidence it would not damage wildlife habitats, which Waterways Ireland were unable to adequately supply, therefore plan rejected. Again have you read the report and what in it do you disagree with?

Seeing as you seem to have read all 250-odd pages of the ABP report, could you tell me what wildlife habitats are at risk from a compacted surface?

ScallionAyter

coathanger wrote: »

Well said, totally agree with your point of view. Why must everything be geared towards cyclists , who pass by the flora & fauna at speed , with little or no regard to their beautiful surroundings.

What's the recommended velocity of travel, to ensure surroundings are enjoyed? Is there a speed at which the surroundings cease to be enjoyed?

Do share...

Mocadonna

ScallionAyter wrote: »

Seeing as you seem to have read all 250-odd pages of the ABP report, could you tell me what wildlife habitats are at risk from a compacted surface?

Not necessary to read the full report, the 4 page decision mentions otters specifically, but the ecology assessment which deals with this starts on page 182 of the report if you would like to have a look.

But as I've been saying it's ABP who looked at all the evidence and made this decision. If it was really down to people not "wanting the great unwashed passing their mansions" you'd imagine the reasons in the decision would be flimsy enough. Yet I haven't heard anyone make any solid arguments against them. Olivia O Leary may be well connected but to suggest she could manipulate this process is fairly silly lads.

I'll bow out here and leave you at it as I'm not going to change anyone's mind and vice versa. The plan has been rejected, time to focus on actually marketing the river as it is.

ScallionAyter

Mocadonna wrote: »

Not necessary to read the full report, the 4 page decision mentions otters specifically, but the ecology assessment which deals with this starts on page 182 of the report if you would like to have a look.

But as I've been saying it's ABP who looked at all the evidence and made this decision. If it was really down to people not "wanting the great unwashed passing their mansions" you'd imagine the reasons in the decision would be flimsy enough. Yet I haven't heard anyone make any solid arguments against them. Olivia O Leary may be well connected but to suggest she could manipulate this process is fairly silly lads.

I'll bow out here and leave you at it as I'm not going to change anyone's mind and vice versa. The plan has been rejected, time to focus on actually marketing the river as it is.

Otters eh? Something out Otters. Gotcha. I'll have to be careful not to step on any Otters when i'm walking the towpath next time. Otters, as we all know, get confused by compacted gravel and are unable to find their way back to the river.

I remember the usual eco-hippies emerging from their McMansions to object to the M7 over some snails. Thankfully that project was of such economic significance that the objectors were ignored and the snails survived anyway.

Unfortunately, the blueway doesn't have the same strategic importance and therefore the likes of O'Leary and the farmers can feign concern about wildlife, while burning gorse, poisoning birds of prey, culling deer and cutting hedgerows, among other things.

Mocadonna

ScallionAyter wrote: »

Otters eh? Something out Otters. Gotcha. I'll have to be careful not to step on any Otters when i'm walking the towpath next time. Otters, as we all know, get confused by compacted gravel and are unable to find their way back to the river.

ðŸ˜† Classic!

From the actual decision:
The Board is also not satisfied that the proposed development would
not impact negatively on otter, an Annex I species under the Habitats Directive
and a qualifying interest of the River Barrow and River Nore SAC by virtue of the
uncertainty regarding the location of otter holts, the potential loss of holts and the
proposed removal of any holts encountered during the development.

But look, you have your mind made up that ABP are in on the conspiracy. Yet you complain about people not listening to "experts" while disregarding the findings of this report. Enjoy the ranting and raving, I'm off for a nice walk down the barrow.

ScallionAyter

Mocadonna wrote: »

�� Classic!

From the actual decision:
The Board is also not satisfied that the proposed development would
not impact negatively on otter, an Annex I species under the Habitats Directive
and a qualifying interest of the River Barrow and River Nore SAC by virtue of the
uncertainty regarding the location of otter holts, the potential loss of holts and the
proposed removal of any holts encountered during the development.

But look, you have your mind made up that ABP are in on the conspiracy. Yet you complain about people not listening to "experts" while disregarding the findings of this report. Enjoy the ranting and raving, I'm off for a nice walk down the barrow.

Are ABP experts on Waterways? That's funny, i thought Waterways Ireland are the experts on Waterways? I guess there must be much more Otter experts in ABP on Marlborough Street...

Either way, construction projects in Ireland have very careful guidelines for dealing with Otters to minimise any impact on them. Do you have some sort of image in your head that builders just turn up one day and tear up the riverbank, while the Otters flee for the hills or get churned up in machinery? That's not what happens in the real world. In the real world, Otters would be evacuated from their nests as they're found, and those Otters go and build new nests elsewhere.

https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/environment/construction-guidelines/Guidelines-for-the-Treatment-of-Otters-prior-to-the-Construction-of-National-Road-Schemes.pdf

You know what also destroys otter nests? river drainage and dredging. The residents of Graigenamanagh can tell you a thing about flooding, caused by lack of river dredging. How lucky they are to have Olivia looking out for the Otters, over their own town.

Enjoy your walk, and watch out for those dangerous two-a-breast Peletons.

alias no.9

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I was in Clonegal earlier this week and can’t understand why the place isn’t alive with tourists . It could be an Adare, which markets itself on a Manor most can’t afford and a few English style thatched cottages . Marketing is the difference .

Adare is both very fortunate and horribly cursed with its location. It's situation on the main route to Kerry sees it snarled up with traffic but it has a captive audience of commuters and tourists. It doesn't need much marketing. Imagine if there was a way to selectively increase passing tourists moving at the kind of pace that would see them stopping regularly without adding the burden of traffic congestion.

coathanger

ScallionAyter wrote: »

What's the recommended velocity of travel, to ensure surroundings are enjoyed? Is there a speed at which the surroundings cease to be enjoyed?

Do share...

U must be a cyclist or one of the minority that stood to benefit financially if it went ahead ....

road_high

coathanger wrote: »

U must be a cyclist or one of the minority that stood to benefit financially if it went ahead ....

Bigger picture- the wider community and local economy ALL benefit from a project like this...that’s if people embrace the potential and open their minds just a teeny tiny little bit to the possibility. The Olivia Oleary’s of this world may suffer slightly as they may have to share space with wider society but that’s a price well worth paying. Shame she and some others managed to hoodwink the locals to back maintaining the status quo after whipping up a storm in a tea cup

HenryWoods

This week on 'It's all about Olivia'... road_high get chased by otters on bicycles.

Markcheese

I'm at a bit of a loss over this one,
The current project has been shot down, by ABP.
But the idea of the project was to up the number of people making use of the canal, as an amenity, (and I assume allow more trade for businesses along the route)
Well, largely because of the publicity that's happening...
A lot of the infrastructure part of the project, was going to be improved access and parking, and signage, that can still be done, (and cheaply)
Its just the bikes that won't be accomadated, might be an opertunity for someone with a barge to transport bikes and luggage one way along a new version of the blue way...

road_high

HenryWoods wrote: »

This week on 'It's all about Olivia'... road_high get chased by otters on bicycles.

Out of arguments so here comes the cheap shots- well done!

[Deleted User]

Olivia dedicated a week's broadcast to the dangerous scourge of cyclists (particularly men in suits, according to her good self) going against the one-way system on the paths on Nassau St last year. So I plonked myself (and my camera) outside the Kilkenny shop one morning last summer. Over 40 minutes, there was one cyclist on the path, a builder / tradesman who looked like he was going to work on one of the shops. He went fairly gingerly along the path, causing no danger to anyone.

Olivia's ability to assess danger is highly suspect.

Mocadonna

ScallionAyter wrote: »

Are ABP experts on Waterways? That's funny, i thought Waterways Ireland are the experts on Waterways? I guess there must be much more Otter experts in ABP on Marlborough Street...

Yeah and the HSE are doing a fantastic job too, after all they are called the Health Service Executive. Having seen the damage Waterways Ireland have done to some sections of the riverbank I wouldn't be praising them too highly.

No I don't think they would wilfully bulldoze otters. However Waterways Ireland actually said there are no holts along the river, but third party applicants with the help of local fishermen showed heavy activity. This is the nub of it really, as was said earlier in the thread it was a complete dogs dinner of a proposal from Waterways Ireland, and on the basis of things like their incorrect information on the holts (and issues over track width, flooding etc) ABP had no choice but to refuse. This one is on them. If the only reason the objectors had was to keep people off the track then Waterways Ireland should have had no trouble getting it through, but it seems maybe there was a bit more to the objections than that.

ScallionAyter

Mocadonna wrote: »

Yeah and the HSE are doing a fantastic job too, after all they are called the Health Service Executive. Having seen the damage Waterways Ireland have done to some sections of the riverbank I wouldn't be praising them too highly.

No I don't think they would wilfully bulldoze otters. However Waterways Ireland actually said there are no holts along the river, but third party applicants with the help of local fishermen showed heavy activity. This is the nub of it really, as was said earlier in the thread it was a complete dogs dinner of a proposal from Waterways Ireland, and on the basis of things like their incorrect information on the holts (and issues over track width, flooding etc) ABP had no choice but to refuse. This one is on them. If the only reason the objectors had was to keep people off the track then Waterways Ireland should have had no trouble getting it through, but it seems maybe there was a bit more to the objections than that.

You're not the only one who can read savethebarrowline.com. Waterways Ireland did not find Otter holts in their survey. You have that much correct. Your 'save the barrow line' group didn't find otter holts either. They found 'potential' otter holts, which could mean 'here's a place an otter could build a nest' - Wow, what a result! Nobody is saying there aren't Otters along the Barrow anyway, i'm sure there are, and Waterways Ireland certainly aren't saying that - so you're being disingenuous, and making up a narrative which doesn't exist in reality.

The argument isn't that the presence of Otters means the blueway can't be built. I've already posted a tii report on how they deal with otters during construction projects. Culverts can be built for them, and where necessary they can be evacuated from their nests and will settle elsewhere (i.e. on the other bleedin' side of the riverbank which doesn't have a towpath).

The nimby's just don't want anyone going near their homes and farms. They want the towpath to be as inaccessible as possible, and on a rainy day like today it's not an attractive place to go for a walk, or somewhere you can reliably plan a walk days ahead of time due to our weather. That suits some people just fine.

Anyway, i'm not going to keep going around in circles with you nimby's. Instead i'm going to email the Irish Waterways contact for the Barrow Line, Hugh Fanning, and encourage IW to keep pursuing the Blueway for the silent majority of tourists, locals and businesses who want this all-year amenity to be built.

https://www.waterwaysireland.org/contact-us

edit: I see you were against the new Bridge in Kilkenny too. How very unsurprising. I personally knew some of the types who protested against the new Bridge - the cliches were absolutely true - a bunch of eco-activist, bird watching, vegans with personal issues.

Mocadonna

ScallionAyter wrote: »

You're not the only one who can read savethebarrowline.com. Waterways Ireland did not find Otter holts in their survey. You have that much correct. Your 'save the barrow line' group didn't find otter holts either. They found 'potential' otter holts, which could mean 'here's a place an otter could build a nest' - Wow, what a result! Nobody is saying there aren't Otters along the Barrow anyway, i'm sure there are, and Waterways Ireland certainly aren't saying that - so you're being disingenuous, and making up a narrative which doesn't exist in reality.

The argument isn't that the presence of Otters means the blueway can't be built. I've already posted a tii report on how they deal with otters during construction projects. Culverts can be built for them, and where necessary they can be evacuated from their nests and will settle elsewhere (i.e. on the other bleedin' side of the riverbank which doesn't have a towpath).

The nimby's just don't want anyone going near their homes and farms. They want the towpath to be as inaccessible as possible, and on a rainy day like today it's not an attractive place to go for a walk, or somewhere you can reliably plan a walk days ahead of time due to our weather. That suits some people just fine.

Anyway, i'm not going to keep going around in circles with you nimby's. Instead i'm going to email the Irish Waterways contact for the Barrow Line, Hugh Fanning, and encourage IW to keep pursuing the Blueway for the silent majority of tourists, locals and businesses who want this all-year amenity to be built.

https://www.waterwaysireland.org/contact-us

The point I've been trying to make is ABP couldn't be satisfied there weren't any holts due to the shambolic nature of the proposals from WI. They seemed to throw it in with an "Ah sure it will be grand like" approach and got handed theirs. Fair enough if they found them there are guidelines for dealing with it ,but the whole thing was very badly presented and ABP had already given them a slap on the wrist over the trees at Milford, so any trust was gone.

There were many other reasons it was rejected, there would be 41 pinch points along the river where cyclists would need to dismount, the recommended 2.5m width couldn't be maintained (that width is less than the 3m recommended by TII for less than 1500 users a day, any more users and 5m is recommended) is another.

Can I just ask you one final thing, why can it not be left as is and marketed as a walking route? Most long distance walkers don't mind a bit of mud, the Wicklow way etc isn't paved and as most activity will take place during the warmer weather the bank is in good shape anyway. Maybe do some improvement work a mile either side of the main towns/villages so people with buggies/wheelchairs etc can enjoy it too. Is this not a good compromise?

Mocadonna

[

edit: I see you were against the new Bridge in Kilkenny too. How very unsurprising. I personally knew some of the types who protested against the new Bridge - the cliches were absolutely true - a bunch of eco-activist, bird watching, vegans with personal issues.[/quote]

I was waiting for you to bring that up actually!! How predictable! I am none of those things but thanks, you seem like a lovely person

To quote your pal road_high:
"Out of arguments so here comes the cheap shots- well done!"

road_high

ScallionAyter wrote: »

You're not the only one who can read savethebarrowline.com. Waterways Ireland did not find Otter holts in their survey. You have that much correct. Your 'save the barrow line' group didn't find otter holts either. They found 'potential' otter holts, which could mean 'here's a place an otter could build a nest' - Wow, what a result! Nobody is saying there aren't Otters along the Barrow anyway, i'm sure there are, and Waterways Ireland certainly aren't saying that - so you're being disingenuous, and making up a narrative which doesn't exist in reality.

The argument isn't that the presence of Otters means the blueway can't be built. I've already posted a tii report on how they deal with otters during construction projects. Culverts can be built for them, and where necessary they can be evacuated from their nests and will settle elsewhere (i.e. on the other bleedin' side of the riverbank which doesn't have a towpath).

The nimby's just don't want anyone going near their homes and farms. They want the towpath to be as inaccessible as possible, and on a rainy day like today it's not an attractive place to go for a walk, or somewhere you can reliably plan a walk days ahead of time due to our weather. That suits some people just fine.

Anyway, i'm not going to keep going around in circles with you nimby's. Instead i'm going to email the Irish Waterways contact for the Barrow Line, Hugh Fanning, and encourage IW to keep pursuing the Blueway for the silent majority of tourists, locals and businesses who want this all-year amenity to be built.

https://www.waterwaysireland.org/contact-us

edit: I see you were against the new Bridge in Kilkenny too. How very unsurprising. I personally knew some of the types who protested against the new Bridge - the cliches were absolutely true - a bunch of eco-activist, bird watching, vegans with personal issues.

Yea they always flock together to oppose everything- one of the grestest scourges in Ireland is this lot- it's virtually impossible to develop anything in this country without this mob interfering and holding things back- while people can have valid objections and concerns and there is are several mechanism to articulate those and that is right, they shouldn't over ride the greater good as is what's happening along the Barrow- they're usually the same whiners you'll find decrying the lack of rural development also.
Very small closed minds only interested in their own agendas.
An Taisce seem to be infiltrated with them at this stage and its time that particular quango was disbanded and replaced with common sense.

road_high

Mocadonna wrote: »

[

edit: I see you were against the new Bridge in Kilkenny too. How very unsurprising. I personally knew some of the types who protested against the new Bridge - the cliches were absolutely true - a bunch of eco-activist, bird watching, vegans with personal issues.

I was waiting for you to bring that up actually!! How predictable! I am none of those things but thanks, you seem like a lovely person

To quote your pal road_high:
"Out of arguments so here comes the cheap shots- well done!"[/QUOTE]

Well if you have a record of being a serial objector everyone should know that- not a cheap shot at all but factual and a good indicator of a NIMBY agenda that is rightly exposed.

road_high

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Olivia dedicated a week's broadcast to the dangerous scourge of cyclists (particularly men in suits, according to her good self) going against the one-way system on the paths on Nassau St last year. So I plonked myself (and my camera) outside the Kilkenny shop one morning last summer. Over 40 minutes, there was one cyclist on the path, a builder / tradesman who looked like he was going to work on one of the shops. He went fairly gingerly along the path, causing no danger to anyone.

Olivia's ability to assess danger is highly suspect.

She was the driving force behind this- many people quietly supported the developement but were silenced by the quasi-Nazi anti blueway mob, led by her good self and her media pals.

Mocadonna

road_high wrote: »

Well if you have a record of being a serial objector everyone should know that- not a cheap shot at all but factual and a good indicator of a NIMBY agenda that is rightly exposed.

I was referring more to the suggestion that I have personal issues.

I never formally objected to anything in my life by the way, just happened to think the bridge in KK was out of context with a town that markets itself as Ireland's medieval capital. Maybe they should take a leaf out of Carlow's book and build a load of apartments around the castle too so you can't see it. Don't you know we have a housing crisis, sure that's only an aul wall anyway etc etc.

But sure ye lads know it all anyway so fire ahead, not engaging with any questions I've asked just calling people NIMBYS and making character judgements based off a few posts on an internet forum.