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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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Lord Glentoran

Muckyboots wrote: »

Someone forgot all that pedestrian safety stuff when they approved the Luas layout in Dublin. People walking and cycling back and over in front of those poor drivers every day of the week. But sure those hipsters in de Capital have different rules for everything.

Yeah, like a maximum 70 km/h speed limit on Luas. Nice try lads.

Muckyboots

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Yeah, like a maximum 70 km/h speed limit on Luas. Nice try lads.

These pedestrian crossings are in stations where trains are stopped.
Anyway, from Claremorris to Tuam, there wouldn't be a train passing 50km/h. Sixteen level crossings and all the ones that were once farm gates are now surrounded by new bungalows and kids. Planning/housing has checkmated the WRC, ironically.

[Deleted User]

Del.Monte wrote: »

AFAIK that type of crossing was known as a 'barrow crossing' from a time when railways provided a useful purpose - passengers weren't meant to use them.

Yeah the porters mainly used them, and so did anyone who was unable to climb the steps to the overbridge.

[Deleted User]

Utter Consternation wrote: »

Yeah, they're known as barrow crossings. Lethal at the best of times, even more so if trains were crossing at the station.

Nothing that a simple automatic gate wouldn't resolve.

jasper100

Deleted User wrote: »

I guessed that's what you meant. Yeah, those are brutal for wheelchairs, with front wheels getting stuck in the gaps.

How so? Would the gap be any wider than the gap between a train and a platform?

Am I right in saying you need to book a ramp for wheelchair access onto the train, in which case whoever is providing the ramp would also be able to assist getting the passenger across the track?

Isambard

the only gaps are for the wheel flanges to pass...less than an inch wide

Utter Consternation

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing that a simple automatic gate wouldn't resolve.

And interlock it with the signalling system?

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah the porters mainly used them, and so did anyone who was unable to climb the steps to the overbridge.

Indeed I had forgotten about the number of jobs the WRC will bring to the west, I forgot to include the porters we will have to bring back needed in Ballyglunin, Tuam, Milltown, etc. Plus bringing back the station masters that will be needed.....At least another 20 jobs for CIE from Athenry to Collooney!

Will all the stations have watering stations for the pony and trap?

Sam Russell

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

Utter Consternation

Sam Russell wrote: »

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

What would the line speed on this section be also?

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

Claremorris/Collooney is only an enthusiast's dream at this stage and it is the link line from Athenry to Claremorris which is important. A whole range of possible journeys would be opened up for locals and tourists. That the line was allowed to get into its present state is a monument to CIE/Government incompetence. Perhaps a small fraction of the €3 billion that is to go into the National Broadband scheme could be diverted to reopening the route - a far better way of wasting/spending the money - and the State would own the end result.

[Deleted User]

Del.Monte wrote: »

Claremorris/Collooney is only an enthusiast's dream at this stage and it is the link line from Athenry to Claremorris which is important. A whole range of possible journeys would be opened up for locals and tourists. That the line was allowed to get into its present state is a monument to CIE/Government incompetence. Perhaps a small fraction of the €3 billion that is to go into the National Broadband scheme could be diverted to reopening the route - a far better way of wasting/spending the money - and the State would own the end result.

Cutting back on 21st century infrastructure to reopen abandoned 19th century infrastructure.
Who would lose out in this scenario?
It would be a brave county council candidate who would propose reopening the railway rather than rural broadband.
Separately I saw someone proposing to ask canvassers a neutral question about the disused railway rather than a leading question - I didn't have a chance to use it yet.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

No genuine answers to genuine questions.

A low use railway would need to be staffed in some way. Either staff at each station/stop or be like a bus service where the driver fulfills all functions. Assisting where needed, ticketing, open the level crossing gates, making the announcements - you get the idea. So basically a bus service on iron wheels.

Now the permanent way would need signals and maintenance, so that would be quite costly. Trespass on railway property is a serious problem, particularly if the service is infrequent. How would that be tackled?

The current alignment is useless as it goes from one small town to an even smaller one. Trains only work if there is mass traffic.

We solved the mass transport in rural areas, as far as has been done, by using buses, not by trains. A dial a bus type service, like Rural Link, is the way to go.

Now, disused rail alignments are best turned into Greenways which is low(ish) cost, gives benefits to the local areas, encourages tourism that suits our climate, yet retains the alignment just in case the railway might be reinstated.

marno21

The alignment between Tuam and Athenry is actually quite a high standard. It's certainly a higher standard than other active railways in the country and is mainly bridged road crossings and is quite straight.

It's north of Tuam that the quality takes a nose dive and north of Claremorris it just becomes rubbish.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

No genuine answers to genuine questions.

because without any guaranteed plan to reopen the line, people aren't going to know the answers on here. perhapse putting these questions to irish rail themselves or the NTA might bare more fruit as even without a guaranteed plan for reopening, they may be better placed to answer.

Sam Russell wrote: »

A low use railway would need to be staffed in some way. Either staff at each station/stop or be like a bus service where the driver fulfills all functions. Assisting where needed, ticketing, open the level crossing gates, making the announcements - you get the idea. So basically a bus service on iron wheels.

any reopening plan would look to remove as far as is possible any level crossings. or if not removal, automation. either staff on trains or staff at stations, which ever would require less staff. not a problem.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now the permanent way would need signals and maintenance, so that would be quite costly. Trespass on railway property is a serious problem, particularly if the service is infrequent. How would that be tackled?

the same way it is tackled across the rail network. i can't imagine permanent way would cost as much as road?

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current alignment is useless as it goes from one small town to an even smaller one. Trains only work if there is mass traffic.

whatever about all the way to mayo, the part to tuam i believe is quite well built. reversing at athenry isn't anything near the issue it is made out to be now days with modern railcars. years ago, when most trains were loco hauled, sure.

Sam Russell wrote: »

We solved the mass transport in rural areas, as far as has been done, by using buses, not by trains. A dial a bus type service, like Rural Link, is the way to go.

i'm not sure we really did solve it. in fact, we quite likely killed it in a number of areas.
a dial a bus service is a waste of time. nobody seems to want them. busses just add to road traffic. if people wanted a dial a bus they would be rampant across the country.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now, disused rail alignments are best turned into Greenways which is low(ish) cost, gives benefits to the local areas, encourages tourism that suits our climate, yet retains the alignment just in case the railway might be reinstated.

in some areas, yes. as a whole, this is just not something that can be guaranteed. certain disused rail alinements should actually be reopened.

[Deleted User]

There are plans to have continuous bus corridors for the problem parts of Tuam to Galway. Once that's done, Tuam to Galway City center will be 30 mins by high frequency bus.

The rail line simply cannot ever compete with that, it just can't.

It's a dead duck, time to convert it to greenway

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

There are plans to have continuous bus corridors for the problem parts of Tuam to Galway. Once that's done, Tuam to Galway City center will be 30 mins by high frequency bus.

The rail line simply cannot ever compete with that, it just can't.

It's a dead duck, time to convert it to greenway

You keep deliberately missing the point that Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route not just a potential commuter link from Tuam/Galway but that doesn't suit your agenda.

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

You keep deliberately missing the point that Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route not just a potential commuter link from Tuam/Galway but that doesn't suit your agenda.

Yes, but the alignment between Tuam and Claremorris is shocking. Is there really going to be substantial demand for Westport/Castlebar - Galway via rail when the competing road journey is improving year by year?

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

Yes, but the alignment between Tuam and Claremorris is shocking. Is there really going to be substantial demand for Westport/Castlebar - Galway via rail when the competing road journey is improving year by year?

Again, you're thinking purely local, why not Limerick/Ennis/Westport etc.....

I'm the first to appreciate the expense involved in putting a railway back in place - especially after it has been systematically run into the ground - but if anything, the existing limited WRC has proved that build it and they will come. CIE had to be dragged screaming before they even started up the limited Ennis/Limerick service back in 1984.

Limerick–Ennis recommenced on Thursdays from 4 August 1984 - two days a week from 12 April 1988, four days a week from 19 February 1993 and six days a week from 16 May 1994. WIKI

CIE never wanted the WRC back and that it has been as 'successful' as it has is a minor miracle given their deplorable attitude.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

There are plans to have continuous bus corridors for the problem parts of Tuam to Galway. Once that's done, Tuam to Galway City center will be 30 mins by high frequency bus.

The rail line simply cannot ever compete with that, it just can't.

It's a dead duck, time to convert it to greenway

given it's not open then of course it can't compete with a bus corridor, which i suspect isn't going to do very much for galway's traffic issues in reality.
bus corridors as the solution for a city's traffic issues just isn't going to work long term. galway needs rail-based transport and tuam is a perfect opportunity to reintroduce a rail service as it has an existing rail line.
tuam most certainly isn't a dead duck and would actually not be a bad reopening. no reason why a rail service couldn't compete with a bus corridor.

[Deleted User]

Commuter services on the Tuam Road into Galway can and do serve big trip generators like Parkmore, GMIT, the city centre and NUIG and serve catchment areas not on the railway like Claregalway and towns further north of Tuam - I use them occasionally.
The rail line is very limited and only serves Tuam and the city centre.

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

Again, you're thinking purely local, why not Limerick/Ennis/Westport etc.....

I'm the first to appreciate the expense involved in putting a railway back in place - especially after it has been systematically run into the ground - but if anything, the existing limited WRC has proved that build it and they will come. CIE had to be dragged screaming before they even started up the limited Ennis/Limerick service back in 1984.

Limerick–Ennis recommenced on Thursdays from 4 August 1984 - two days a week from 12 April 1988, four days a week from 19 February 1993 and six days a week from 16 May 1994. WIKI

CIE never wanted the WRC back and that it has been as 'successful' as it has is a minor miracle given their deplorable attitude.

Del.Monte, I do appreciate where you are coming from, but realistically, future rail expansion in Ireland will be totally centered around commuter rail. Upgrading the N17 would be far more useful for that area than reopening the rail line. North of Tuam the alignment is totally uncompetitive with road.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Del.Monte, I do appreciate where you are coming from, but realistically, future rail expansion in Ireland will be totally centered around commuter rail. Upgrading the N17 would be far more useful for that area than reopening the rail line. North of Tuam the alignment is totally uncompetitive with road.

Well, there might be some intercity work, like putting in dual tracking to help intercity flexibility.

Lord Glentoran

end of the road wrote: »

given it's not open then of course it can't compete with a bus corridor, which i suspect isn't going to do very much for galway's traffic issues in reality.
bus corridors as the solution for a city's traffic issues just isn't going to work long term. galway needs rail-based transport and tuam is a perfect opportunity to reintroduce a rail service as it has an existing rail line.
tuam most certainly isn't a dead duck and would actually not be a bad reopening. no reason why a rail service couldn't compete with a bus corridor.

The Americanism “center” is the telling word there. Galway is a test bed for American-style sprawl and having rail for Tuam-Galway commuting spoils that.

Poop poop!

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

Again, you're thinking purely local, why not Limerick/Ennis/Westport etc.....

I'm the first to appreciate the expense involved in putting a railway back in place - especially after it has been systematically run into the ground - but if anything, the existing limited WRC has proved that build it and they will come. CIE had to be dragged screaming before they even started up the limited Ennis/Limerick service back in 1984.

Limerick–Ennis recommenced on Thursdays from 4 August 1984 - two days a week from 12 April 1988, four days a week from 19 February 1993 and six days a week from 16 May 1994. WIKI

CIE never wanted the WRC back and that it has been as 'successful' as it has is a minor miracle given their deplorable attitude.

Bang on the money as ever.

Muckyboots

Jayney Mac, the candidates in the Galway County Council elections are falling over themselves to declare their love for the greenway. Hardly a signalman's peep about trains at all. Changes afoot.

Lord Glentoran

Muckyboots wrote: »

Jayney Mac, the candidates in the Galway County Council elections are falling over themselves to declare their love for the greenway. Hardly a signalman's peep about trains at all. Changes afoot.

There’s votes to be chased in maintaining one house to the acre sprawl, and mosherways to maintain that.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

There’s votes to be chased in maintaining one house to the acre sprawl, and mosherways to maintain that.

And there are votes to be had in creating jobs in the tourism and services industries, which is exactly what the QMG will do.

whisky_galore

Muckyboots wrote: »

Jayney Mac, the candidates in the Galway County Council elections are falling over themselves to declare their love for the greenway. Hardly a signalman's peep about trains at all. Changes afoot.

Bread and circuses for the easily pleased.

Muckyboots

whisky_galore wrote: »

Bread and circuses for the easily pleased.

The new rubbery sandwiches and Knock Specials.