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Child Item

Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism

Johnnyhpipe

From “bloggers” to billboards to PETA giving out to me for drinking milk and “taking babies away from their mothers”... I was in McDonalds earlier tucking into a big mac and a load of nuggets and saw their new ‘veggie happy meal’... When did this rise of veggie/veganism start? Why did it start?

Some people have tried to convince me to go vegetarian, or at least cut down on meat consumption. I haven’t heard a decent argument as to why I should apart from some doomsday videos on youtube..

Am I really a bad boy for eating meat? All sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

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Sawduck

Let vegan's be vegan and meat eaters be meat eaters, don't know why its got to be an issue,just eat what you want

gozunda

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry but that is absolute bollox. Which "grain" are you talking about? Wheat? Barley? Corn? All of them?

Most animal feed comes from the leftovers after the grain has been used for something else. IIRC most of the corn grown in the US is turned into ethanol and the waste used as feed. It has little nutritional value to humans. Just look at places in Ohio were its the main crop and there ethanol plants everywhere.

The US does not produce enough grain for its needs. Thats why it needs to export some (wheat) and import others (barley) from Canada for example.

Edit: Those figures as given by the PP are taken from an American website which lists the author as "Dr. Oppenlander"recognized as top 100 most influential vegans"(sic). Not only do the figures not match with any of the official FAO or other data - there is no sources for any of the claims made and the article contains no references whatsover. So as you say rubbish

The one crop that the US is sufficient in is Soya and it is currently the largest grower of soya beans globally. This crop is primarily processed for soya oil - the worlds most commonly used oil and a valuable commodity on the international market. After the last drop of oil is squeezed from the soya beans - the left overs - ie the husks and what is known as 'soy meal' is processed for further use. As by-products these are used in a variety of ways including animal feed especially for lot fed animals. In Europe and elsewhere these residues are mainly used as a supplementary feedstuff if needed - when livestock is housed during the winter months.

prinzeugen

auspicious wrote: »

The grain used to feed American livestock alone could eradicate world hunger and feed 800 million hungry men, women and children.

Sorry but that is absolute bollox. Which "grain" are you talking about? Wheat? Barley? Corn? All of them?

Most animal feed comes from the leftovers after the grain has been used for something else. IIRC most of the corn grown in the US is turned into ethanol and the waste used as feed. It has little nutritional value to humans. Just look at places in Ohio were its the main crop and there ethanol plants everywhere.

The US does not produce enough grain for its needs. Thats why it needs to export some (wheat) and import others (barley) from Canada for example.

auspicious

Jazmin Some Designer wrote: »

I will stop wearing leather shoes, belts etc and use ones made from petroleum products.

Look, it's senseless to think we can live in a perfect world. We just got to make the right choices and limit our impact with intent.

auspicious

*Gozunda- My last post makes no mention of veganism etc or even the much maligned vegetarians. So why would you bring that up?*

That was just my reply to the OP.

I don't hate you for replying. Not at all. I dont hate anyone. Well except those who deserve it; the same people that you and anybody sane hate.

andekwarhola

My wife is vegetarian and before the kids came along, I'd kinda faded away from eating meat except for when we ate out which was about once a week. I do like a decent meat meal though and I wasn't and am not willing to give it completely.

Now that the kids are here, we (excluding wife) eat meat maybe about twice a week, fish 1-2 times a week and veggie stuff the rest. Obviously we'd do treats with the kids like burger places and whatever. One thing we've definitely done recently is eiliminated processed meats from our household diet.

No problem with Vegans though. It's admirably healthy if they're doing it right but it's just not for me.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

In reply to this post: This thread is not supposed to be representative of Irish farmers / food producers. The OP never mentioned that.

I'd agree and yet a previous poster brought that up in an attempt to throw ****e. Is that not strange perhaps?

The rise of veganism started as a result of the dissemination of ideas, views and knowledge across the World Wide Web.
People became educated about the standard practices and not so standard practices of animal agriculture. They gained the knowledge that one can live and thrive on plant based diets ...

My last post makes no mention of 'veganism' etc or even the much maligned vegetarians. So why would you bring that up? (And yes I am aware of the thread title btw). I know I will be attacked for even responding to that. Why would I do so seriously? My interest is food and its production and to counter some of the bs being posted about that. Much of that which is bring pushed is misinformation and also sadly propaganda. I will respond to that.

Standards of agricultural production in Ireland are very high and strictly regulated. People can thrive on a wide range of foodstuffs and different diets and be healthy including eating meat and dairy as part of a healthy balanced diet. Animals are in the absolute majority of cases well cared for and protected against illness and predation. 'Secretions' I find is a hilarious but seriously bizarre phrase for normal every day / milk, eggs etc. Mammals produce 'milk' in my reality. I've checked with others and they report it's the same in theirs.

As to this

Becoming vegan not only lessens the suffering which animals endure but also proactively combats human rights issues.

Here are some examples of how that is just words and little else tbh.

There is no world shortage of food. There is food inequality due to corruption, conflict and poverty.
https://www.worldhunger.org/letter-food-shortage-world-questions/

Many people in developing countries are dependent on livestock for food and agriculture. For example: Ethiopia has approx 53 million cattle and this type of agriculture forms an important part of the economy.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/of-cabbages-and-cows-increasing-agricultural-yields-in-africa

India has more bovines than any other country on earth including some 75 million dairy farms - providing a nutritious food source of food for many of it's own people. https://qz.com/235085/india-75-million-dairy-farms-now-make-more-milk-than-all-of-the-european-union/

86 % of all food fed to animals comes from by-products of the human food industry. Not 'grain'!
http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

The majority of people who work in food processing - including the killing of animals are well adjusted and live normal lives. The slaughter of animals for food is highly regulated and inspected. This is well documented.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/29/slaughterhouse-crossing-line-between-life-meat

The production of food in parts of the world with few if any environmental standards of ethics is a huge issue. Whether that is vegan or any other products. This is well documented
https://boingboing.net/2018/09/03/veganism-might-make-you-feel-b.html

Eat healthily, eat locally and if you do not trust others for whatever reason grow and / or source your own food. This is easier than most people believe.

Please dont hate me for replying. I dont care what anyone eats tbh. I do not try to persuade anyone to change their diet. However I strongly dislike misinformation of any kind. Thanks

uck51js9zml2yt

auspicious wrote: »

In reply to this post:

This thread is not supposed to be representative of Irish farmers / food producers. The OP never mentioned that.
The rise of veganism started as a result of the dissemination of ideas, views and knowledge across the World Wide Web.
People became educated about the standard practices and not so standard practices of animal agriculture. They gained the knowledge that one can live and thrive on plant based diets thereby eliminating animal suffering. Like it or not, animals must suffer throughout the industry, globally, for humans to be able to comsume their bodies and secretions.

In relation to the avocado problem in the part of the world highlighted I agree. One must make informed choices and look elsewhere or not buy it. But to be fair vegans only make up 1% of the population, therefore the vast majority of avocados are been bought and eaten by non-vegans.

Yes in certain parts of the world people are exploited, not only for a small fraction of vegan foodstuffs but also and to a greater extent, for and as a result of meat industries.

Becoming vegan not only lessens the suffering which animals endure but also proactively combats human rights issues.

Here are some examples:

82% of starving children live in countries where the food is fed to animals and the animals are eaten by western countries.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://comfortablyunaware.com/blog/the-world-hunger-food-choice-connection-a-summary/&ved=2ahUKEwjGuJHAroXiAhUsUhUIHZOUA_cQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw2abY7QP5og-gXJn1VISGCP

The grain used to feed American livestock alone could eradicate world hunger and feed 800 million hungry men, women and children.

Plenty of scholarly studies in Britain and the States confirm longterm slaughterhouse employees can suffer psychological distress such as PTSD for example, resulting in increased domestic and societal violence, alcohol and drug abuse, also depression, anxiety and carpal tunnel syndrome and more from exposure to the daily routine in meat factories.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://yaleglobalhealthreview.com/2016/01/25/a-call-to-action-psychological-harm-in-slaughterhouse-workers/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjs85rCsIXiAhXCShUIHUJTBBkQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3XJbb1zT9xqBnP9Uq6aCYP&ampcf=1

In Bangladesh for example the exploitation of leather tannery workers where 95% die before the age of 50 as a result of exposure to the toxic chemicals used to process leather. These chemicals find a way into rivers and streams which flow through nearby communities and poison the people there.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ucanews.com/news/bangladeshi-tannery-workers-face-health-and-safety-crisis/84401&ved=2ahUKEwjj4puLsoXiAhVyQxUIHUyzD-gQFjAEegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3jtOvOBuThZ351iutVq4KL

I will stop wearing leather shoes, belts etc and use ones made from petroleum products.

auspicious

gozunda wrote: »

Thank you for proving my point.

How's that's supposed to be representative of Irish farmers / food producers :rolleyes:

Have you seen what happens to people who grow avocados under threat of the South American drug lords or the women in India who have their hands burned during the processing cashew nuts? Let's take extreme stories of bastards and examples of those who actually dont give a f***

Its common, and the treatment of people who provide these foodstuffs imported and eaten by people here ...

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/nov/02/cashew-nut-workers-pay-conditions-profits

https://www.theguardian.com/food/shortcuts/2018/dec/10/should-you-stop-eating-blood-avocados

In reply to this post:

This thread is not supposed to be representative of Irish farmers / food producers. The OP never mentioned that.

The rise of veganism started as a result of the dissemination of ideas, views and knowledge across the World Wide Web.
People became educated about the standard practices and not so standard practices of animal agriculture. They gained the knowledge that one can live and thrive on plant based diets thereby eliminating animal suffering. Like it or not, animals must suffer throughout the industry, globally, for humans to be able to comsume their bodies and secretions.

In relation to the avocado problem in the part of the world highlighted I agree. One must make informed choices and look elsewhere or not buy it. But to be fair vegans only make up 1% of the population, therefore the vast majority of avocados are been bought and eaten by non-vegans.

Yes in certain parts of the world people are exploited, not only for a small fraction of vegan foodstuffs but also and to a greater extent, for and as a result of meat industries.

Becoming vegan not only lessens the suffering which animals endure but also proactively combats human rights issues.

Here are some examples:

82% of starving children live in countries where the food is fed to animals and the animals are eaten by western countries.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://comfortablyunaware.com/blog/the-world-hunger-food-choice-connection-a-summary/&ved=2ahUKEwjGuJHAroXiAhUsUhUIHZOUA_cQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw2abY7QP5og-gXJn1VISGCP

The grain used to feed American livestock alone could eradicate world hunger and feed 800 million hungry men, women and children.

Plenty of scholarly studies in Britain and the States confirm longterm slaughterhouse employees can suffer psychological distress such as PTSD for example, resulting in increased domestic and societal violence, alcohol and drug abuse, also depression, anxiety and carpal tunnel syndrome and more from exposure to the daily routine in meat factories.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://yaleglobalhealthreview.com/2016/01/25/a-call-to-action-psychological-harm-in-slaughterhouse-workers/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjs85rCsIXiAhXCShUIHUJTBBkQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3XJbb1zT9xqBnP9Uq6aCYP&ampcf=1

In Bangladesh for example the exploitation of leather tannery workers where 95% die before the age of 50 as a result of exposure to the toxic chemicals used to process leather. These chemicals find a way into rivers and streams which flow through nearby communities and poison the people there.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ucanews.com/news/bangladeshi-tannery-workers-face-health-and-safety-crisis/84401&ved=2ahUKEwjj4puLsoXiAhVyQxUIHUyzD-gQFjAEegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3jtOvOBuThZ351iutVq4KL

gozunda

Still waters wrote: »

You must be busy, farmers have quite a lot to put up with these days

As you are an Irish farmer, thanks for the advice. But no need I'm good thanks.

Still waters

gozunda wrote: »

Good for you that you think you as a farmer don't betray and abuse animals. The billboards say otherwise
Me - I stand up against all kinds of bull****, directed at farmers or otherwise. What about you?

You must be busy, farmers have quite a lot to put up with these days

gozunda

Still waters wrote: »

I don't abuse my animals and if you don't you have nothing to worry about, they're interpretations of abuse and betrayal is not something I mull over, you need to step back from your online self appointed crusade against anyone who says anything negative about farmers

Good for you that you rightfully believe that you as a farmer don't 'betray and abuse' (sic) your animals. Unfortunately those billboards say otherwise. Me - I stand up against all kinds of bull****, directed at farmers, animals and all others. What about you? What's your "crusade"? (sic)

Still waters

gozunda wrote: »

Lifestyles - is that the ones saying you are betraying and abusing animals? Interesting - can you tell us more about that?

I don't abuse my animals and if you don't you have nothing to worry about, they're interpretations of abuse and betrayal is not something I mull over, you need to step back from your online self appointed crusade against anyone who says anything negative about farmers

gozunda

Still waters wrote: »

Theres very few of either if the truth be told. all I see is big billboards promoting lifestyles and either side taking offense

Lifestyles - is that the ones alleging you are betraying and abusing animals? Interesting - can you tell us more about that?

Still waters

gozunda wrote: »

The thing is there's very few of them tbh. And as you're an Irish farmer I'm sure you know that already. Most people I know eat a normal balanced diet including meat and dairy and vegetables. That said - I really don't give a proverbial ****e what others eat. What about you?

Theres very few of either if the truth be told. all I see is big billboards promoting lifestyles and either side taking offense

gozunda

Still waters wrote: »

if theres one thing worse than militant vegetarians its militant meat promoters

The thing is there's very few of them tbh. And as you're an Irish farmer I'm sure you know that already. Most people I know eat a normal balanced diet including meat and dairy and vegetables. That said - I really don't give a proverbial ****e what others eat. What about you?

Still waters

if theres one thing worse than militant vegetarians its militant meat promoters

gozunda

archer22 wrote: »

Its common, and the treatment of live exports when they arrive in the Middle East is beyond horrific.There was a programme about it on TG4 a few months ago, they showed some really stomach churning footage.

Thank you for proving my point.

How's that's supposed to be representative of Irish farmers / food producers :rolleyes:

Have you seen what happens to people who grow avocados under threat of the South American drug lords or the women in India who have their hands burned during the processing cashew nuts? Let's take extreme stories of bastards and examples of those who actually dont give a f***

Its common, and the treatment of people who provide these foodstuffs imported and eaten by people here ...

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/nov/02/cashew-nut-workers-pay-conditions-profits

https://www.theguardian.com/food/shortcuts/2018/dec/10/should-you-stop-eating-blood-avocados

archer22

The Satanist wrote: »

Is this made up too?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/calves-beaten-hit-video-footage-violence-animals-live-exports-europe-a8899631.html

Its common, and the treatment of live exports when they arrive in the Middle East is beyond horrific.

There was a programme about it on TG4 a few months ago, they showed some really stomach churning footage.

The Satanist

gozunda wrote: »

Then there the bs billboard marking those out involved in food production as betrayers and abusers. You couldn't make this ****e up tbh.

Is this made up too?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/calves-beaten-hit-video-footage-violence-animals-live-exports-europe-a8899631.html

is_that_so

wakka12 wrote: »

What do you mean 'pitch' ? They are innocent animals we breed and kill early on in their life to be slaughtered, no two ways about seeing this, we are ending their lives for our dinner when its completely unnecessary due to how many other types of nutritious plant foods available which could sustain our diets. Now Im not particularly against that aspect, circle of life and all that(though I do limit my meat intake for environmental and health reasons). But for god sake, I can recognise that its a convincing argument

You see your pitch lost me at innocent animals but I still read till the end of it. It's not an effective argument if people don't share the same view of it, no matter how you frame it. I understand their position in the food chain and some day something will feed on me.

gozunda

wakka12 wrote: »

Im not vegetarian even but surely not killing innocent animals unnecessarily for your dinner is a convincing argument. I think you just dont want to believe there is a convincing argument.There is convincing health benefits
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324869.phpand there are convincing benefits for the environment if humans were to adapt vegetarian lifestyles, or even jusr reduce meat consumption. Anyway you are ironically the one making a thread about how annoying vegans are and apparently how much trouble they give you for eating meant, many similar threads have been made recently, and funnily enough Ive yet to see an after hours thread started by a vegetarian or vegan going out of their way to tell people off for eating animal products

What has the word "innocent' got to do with the eating of anything? Animals have eaten meat since the dawn of time. And yes humans are animals as well. And no its got nothing to do with slavery or murder. If you mean we should maintain high standards of animal welfare well I wholeheartedly agree btw.

That article you linked with has tons of plant based industry promotion and bias imo. The article you linked to even claims that ordinary meat is linked with cancer and thats bs. What the World health Organiastion does say is that - eating red meat has not been established as a cause of cancer. Eating rubbish ****e processed meats like all ****e foods can be bad for you. Meat as part of a balanced diet is a healthy whole food. And that does not need to be stated btw. You also find that alot of what's put out about the environment and farming is pure bs and misinformation.

Btw they've certainly been threads that were created just for that. In AH there was one called war on meat about how great the now discredited EAT Lancet report was and how we should all follow its advice. There was the one about a sheep being attacked which was hijacked to tell us we should all eat plant based diets. Then there the bs billboard marking all those out involved in food production as betrayers and abusers. You couldn't make this ****e up tbh. I've no problem with what anyone eats btw.

auspicious

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well don't promote it, just let people eat what they want

Most people were unaware ( especially city dwellers ) and many still are about the circumstances of animals and how their bodies are harvested. They react with dismay when they see the posters or the footage.
As it's been said smokers for example stop smoking knowing the repercussions; People cut back on plastic usage knowing the damage it creates in the environment and to sea life; Carbon footprint emissions and so on.
It's all about making an informed choice.

Snickers Man

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

People who get annoyed about the increasing popularity of vegetarianism/veganism are every bit as tiresome as militant vegans.

I quite agree. And that is pretty damned tiresome!

Having said which: how many times have any of you actually been personally upbraided by a militant vegan/vegetarian for enjoying a hamburger, or fish and chips, or a liver paté sandwich, or even a milk shake? Sure, you might see people on TV, only TOO delighted to be quoted, saying that dairy lovers are milksops or that burger munchers are destroying the planet, but are these really the sort of people you meet in real life? For the most part they are straw men, or women.

Personally I have been in a perfectly amicable "mixed marriage" for years. I eat meat; she doesn't, and our kids are split perfectly down the middle. One does; one never has.

More meat for the rest of us

The Rape of Lucretia

wakka12 wrote: »

What do you mean 'pitch' ? They are innocent animals we breed and kill early on in their life to be slaughtered, no two ways about seeing this, we are ending their lives for our dinner when its completely unnecessary due to how many other types of nutritious plant foods available which could sustain our diets. Now Im not particularly against that aspect, circle of life and all that(though I do limit my meat intake for environmental and health reasons). But for god sake, I can recognise that its a convincing argument

And have you no problem with all the plants we would have to kill if we didnt kill so many animals?
Plants and vegetable that never hurt anyone. Just because they havnt cute faces. Merily going about their own circle if life, until cut down, uprooted, picked, so that people can eat them. They arent even part of the animal kingdom, yet expected to be its food. No to mention the amount of grass killed to keep the animals alive because vegetarians wont eat them.

wakka12

is_that_so wrote: »

There are "convincing arguments" for anything you want to be convinced about. The innocent animal pitch is a an effort to guilt people into examining what they eat. It is is far more useful to everyone to point out the downsides. Food and what we eat is a choice. Not doing so well, for our body can have consequences as can the million and one other activities and events that we meet in our lives.
That last line suggests you're disappointed nobody has!

What do you mean 'pitch' ? They are innocent animals we breed and kill early on in their life to be slaughtered, no two ways about seeing this, we are ending their lives for our dinner when its completely unnecessary due to how many other types of nutritious plant foods available which could sustain our diets. Now Im not particularly against that aspect, circle of life and all that(though I do limit my meat intake for environmental and health reasons). But for god sake, I can recognise that its a convincing argument

Unearthly

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You'll have a hard time getting Irish people to give up their pork breakfast and reconstituted dutch factory chicken fillet rolls for lunch

You will find actually that vegans are a very tiny % something like a half percent to 1%. Vegetarians are about 5%

What's really increasing is people cutting down on meat in general. They make up the bulk of vegan/vegetarian food purchases

Thelonious Monk

You'll have a hard time getting Irish people to give up their pork breakfast and reconstituted dutch factory chicken fillet rolls for lunch

Unearthly

is_that_so wrote: »

It's really not up to me to offer you answers. People can choose to eat as they wish but they are not arbiters on any other person's food choices.

Fair enough and I wouldn't attempt to promote it someone like yourself who isn't interested.

Unearthly

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well don't promote it, just let people eat what they want

Indeed. My brother has bluntly told me to feck off and I respect that.

On the other hand people who show interest and want to know more then it's fair game