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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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SeanW

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, I noticed that, but it gives more seating. If they are used for longer commuter type distances, it might be OK.

If they do not need the power pack, it could be replaced with a same length coach, without doors or perhaps just a single door, or just omit it, or make it a toilet section and bike storage.

You're right, the power pack arrangement looks good and (if the company can build custom sections as needed) they could probably replace it with a seating or standing section with or without doors if and when electrification is completed.

loyatemu wrote: »

you've still got to board people in the city centre stations.

Just from experience of the 22Ks on commuter service, lack of doors is a real issue.

Yes, it's an issue on the 22ks but remember that those are end-door configurations and the access to them is poor (by design, they're Intercity cars with a requirement for comfort and seating above all else). With these trains it looks like the doors are in or near the centre with plenty of access from the interior.

So while it might be an issue, it would not be the same as the 22ks.

highdef wrote: »

I'm open to correction but aren't the floors on the FLIRT trains too low for the Irish platform height of 91.5cm?

FLIRT: "Standard floor height is 57 cm (22.4 in), but 78 cm (30.7 in) high floors are also available for platform heights of 76 cm (29.9 in)."

True, but it's possible that the company can be flexible on this. As you say, Irish platform heights are considerably higher than those on the continent.

Sam Russell

highdef wrote: »

I'm open to correction but aren't the floors on the FLIRT trains too low for the Irish platform height of 91.5cm?

FLIRT: "Standard floor height is 57 cm (22.4 in), but 78 cm (30.7 in) high floors are also available for platform heights of 76 cm (29.9 in)."

They have not built an Irish gauge version either. I think if they get a big order, they will be able to adjust the design to suit.

Certainly, they look like a good and flexible solution. If they got the diesel tender version, I am sure it could be reworked to replace the diesel generators with battery packs, as the electrical distribution would already be in place.

DoctorPan wrote: »

He's stuck in a uncomfortable position, the network needs new trains but the wires aren't where they're meant to be but he can't wait to order and CIE board policy is preventing new diesel orders, best of a bad lot.

Oh definitely a very difficult position they are in at the moment, a tough job.

One option though would be to go FLIRT, with three diesel engines and one battery pack and call it a hybrid train.

After all, despite the CIE/NTA policy on Diesel orders, DB/NTA look like they are still going to continue to buy Diesel buses, just that they are basic hybrids buses, a Diesel engine, with a small battery charged from braking like a Prius. Could do the same with the FLIRT design.

Hey but then maybe I'm wrong and the battery tech is reliable enough already. It is certainly proving itself with EV cars like Tesla. If it works and is reliable it certainly will be nicer then Diesel engines.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

One option though would be to go FLIRT, with three diesel engines and one battery pack and call it a hybrid train.

After all, despite the CIE/NTA policy on Diesel orders, DB/NTA look like they are still going to continue to buy Diesel buses, just that they are basic hybrids buses, a Diesel engine, with a small battery charged from braking like a Prius. Could do the same with the FLIRT design.

Hey but then maybe I'm wrong and the battery tech is reliable enough already. It is certainly proving itself with EV cars like Tesla. If it works and is reliable it certainly will be nicer then Diesel engines.

There are four slots for diesel or battery (I assume).

If each battery could power the train for 100 km, including braking recharge, the it would allow Bray to Wexford. If that could be achieved using two battery packs, with the two other positions taken by two diesel engines, that would allow it to return to base if the batteries were exhausted. Charge points could be installed at each stop to give a short boost.

Overall, it would go a long way to reduce the diesel consumption, and so reduce the carbon footprint. Plus give significant flexibility to the commuter network.

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are four slots for diesel or battery (I assume).

Yep

Sam Russell wrote: »

If each battery could power the train for 100 km, including braking recharge, the it would allow Bray to Wexford. If that could be achieved using two battery packs, with the two other positions taken by two diesel engines, that would allow it to return to base if the batteries were exhausted. Charge points could be installed at each stop to give a short boost.

I was looking for battery specs for FLIRT, but didn't find any info unfortunately.

I wouldn't expect 100km per battery pack. I'd say about 20km per pack would be more realistic.

The BEMU's specs I found seem to mostly indicate 50 to 65km and that is with multiple battery packs on the roof.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Yep

I was looking for battery specs for FLIRT, but didn't find any info unfortunately.

I wouldn't expect 100km per battery pack. I'd say about 20km per pack would be more realistic.

The BEMU's specs I found seem to mostly indicate 50 to 65km and that is with multiple battery packs on the roof.

These trains look too good a fit for our requirements. Pity, cos the likelyhood is that they wil not be specced and so not purchased.

Gauge - not available. Floor height too low. Not enough bogies. Not enough doors. Not the right length. Designed to run on the wrong side. Wrong colour. Etc etc etc.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Gauge - not available. Floor height too low. Not enough bogies. Not enough doors. Not the right length. Designed to run on the wrong side. Wrong colour. Etc etc etc.

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now, including 12 carriage monsters. So different bogies, more doors or doors on our side don't seem to be of any issue for them.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now, including 12 carriage monsters. So different bogies, more doors or doors on our side don't seem to be of any issue for them.

I am just complaining that we cannot have anything nice.

It appears to be capable of just what is needed. Would be good if we could get some EU money to help.

L1011

The FLIRT is possibly the most flexible MU platform anyone has ever offered. They already do 1500v DC models as far as I remember

roadmaster

A lecture is being webcast by Engineers Ireland about the dart expansion on the 22th may. I think anyone can log in to watch

http://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/dart-expansion-expanding-the-dart-network-in-the-g.aspx

dublinman1990

IÉ won't be getting new DART carriages until 2023 at the very latest. That's an absolute joke.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/commuters-left-waiting-for-rail-carriages-until-2023-922876.html

CatInABox

dublinman1990 wrote: »

IÉ won't be getting new DART carriages until 2023 at the very latest. That's an absolute joke.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/commuters-left-waiting-for-rail-carriages-until-2023-922876.html

Yeah, as soon as I heard the problems with refurbishment, I knew that similar problems would occur with leasing temporary trains. Ironically enough, if the NTA wasn't planning on buying new fleet, then leasing would probably go ahead without issue.

devnull

bk wrote: »

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now, including 12 carriage monsters. So different bogies, more doors or doors on our side don't seem to be of any issue for them.

No FLIRTS are in service yet and the first batch due to enter service are now running late.

devnull wrote: »

No FLIRTS are in service yet and the first batch due to enter service are now running late.

But the first have been delivered and are running, just doing testing, driver familiarisation, etc. So yes, not in service yet, but they are "running".

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

But the first have been delivered and are running, just doing testing, driver familiarisation, etc. So yes, not in service yet, but they are "running".

Greater Anglia has not taken delivery of a single set as yet. They remain the property of Stadtler at this stage. There’s a significant lead time before they come into passenger service - the first set hasn’t even cleared fault free running yet. Only at that point do they transfer to the train operating company and driver training starts.

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse a bit!

LXFlyer wrote: »

Greater Anglia has not taken delivery of a single set as yet. They remain the property of Stadtler at this stage. There’s a significant lead time before they come into passenger service - the first set hasn’t even cleared fault free running yet. Only at that point do they transfer to the train operating company and driver training starts.

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse a bit!

Actually Greater Anglia have taken delivery of the first trains and they are in test, just not in service:

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2019/03/01/first-new-stanstead-express-train-arrives/
http://transportdesigned.com/greater-anglias-class-755-trains-now-tested/

Also if you go back and read my quote, I said:

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now,

Note the word RUNNING. Which they absolutely are, they are "running" on tracks right now. The above link has video of it running in the UK.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Actually Greater Anglia have taken delivery of the first trains and they are in test, just not in service:

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2019/03/01/first-new-stanstead-express-train-arrives/
http://transportdesigned.com/greater-anglias-class-755-trains-now-tested/

Also if you go back and read my quote, I said:

Note the word RUNNING. Which they absolutely are, they are "running" on tracks right now. The above link has video of it running in the UK.

They remain the property of Stadtler until they have completed fault free running. Until that point they aren’t handed over to Greater Anglia. Only at that stage will GA drivers even start driving them.

That’s quite a difference.

With all due respect you really don’t know the detail of this at all and maybe perhaps accept that some of us do.

LXFlyer wrote: »

They remain the property of Stadtler until they have completed fault free running. Until that point they aren’t handed over to Greater Anglia. Only at that stage will GA drivers even start driving them.

That’s quite a difference.

With all due respect you really don’t know the detail of this at all and maybe perhaps accept that some of us do.

Are they or are they not currently running on tracks in the UK?

Very simple question, because that is what I wrote.

Sam Russell

Mod:

@ BK & Lxflyer:

This is a disagreement about semantics. Can you settle it by PM as it is of little interest to anyone else.

Back on topic please. Those FLIRT trains are of interest, but only if we can get them.

L1011

There's some slides on Twitter from the Engineers Ireland presentation slide on this tonight. One has "reconfigure track at Clongriffin and Howth Junction" for the Northern line. I wonder if that means a Howth shuttle or something else. I think the actual presentation will be recorded which may elaborate on that

Also has "additional turn-back" for the Bray/Greystones line, doesn't say where on the slide.

Another slide claims that the upgrade works will increase rush hour capacity to/from the city centre to 52k from 26k; with an "infrastructure capacity" of 60k (so presumably some paths left for future rolling stock purchases); with DU bringing that to 80k. This clearly requires significant extra use of Docklands; although a P8 at Connolly is mentioned elsewhere.

Sam Russell

Will IR or TII need planning permission to put up the O/H wires on the proposed Dart expansion lines?

Could they just string up the lines?

L1011

I think it'll need planning. Many other bits will anyway - depot, crossings, etc

CatInABox

Here's the Twitter thread, some interesting stuff here.

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131258079897694208

marno21

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131260452355432449

If the above is the actual plan I'm intrigued to see how they manage it

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

If the above is the actual plan I'm intrigued to see how they manage it

Yeah, I was looking at that slide with amusement.

Sam Russell

For the Dart south of GCD.

They have a plan for the Merrion Gates. They could do the Serpentine Ave one by raising the line by a three metres and lowering the road by a similar amount - there is enough to allow a gentle incline in the tracks.

That would leave just Landsdowne (which should have been done as part of the stadium build), Sandymount ans Sydney Parade. If the Merrion Gate system goes ahed, the Sydney Parade will not be too important - not sure about the others.

Then there is the one at Bray.

Thrashssacre

marno21 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131260452355432449

If the above is the actual plan I'm intrigued to see how they manage it

How do you four track to heuston the 3 track section is pinned in by the road and apartment blocks.

cgcsb

Thrashssacre wrote: »

How do you four track to heuston the 3 track section is pinned in by the road and apartment blocks.

Extra track on the road side this will take some engineering retaining wall superstars brought in.

MJohnston

None of those south DART level crossings closures will ever happen in the current political climate, I'm sure of that. The ones along the Maynooth line will go fine though, I'm sure.

It's hard to know what the difference is....

marno21

Of course the easy solution for the 4 tracking into Heuston is not to 4 track into Heuston but to divert 2 of the tracks into a tunnel somewhere around Inchicore.

The cost of the needless 4 tracking into Heuston would probably cover the entire cost of the DART Underground re-planning.