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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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MJohnston

A question I might have asked before: when DART underground was originally planned, would Connolly have held more gravity in terms of commuter preference as a destination? I suspect the answer is yes.

I'm curious, because we still see Docklands referred to as a compromise destination, but I think that over the last 10 years especially, the gravity of the city in that regard has shifted completely, towards Docklands. That's before we see the completion of all the extra offices that are being constructed or planned on the north Docklands at the minute.

I know Docklands doesn't offer any through-line potential in the way that Connolly does, but I feel like a lot of DART expansion would be better served thinking about Docklands and Grand Canal Dock stations as core destinations too.

marno21

bk wrote: »

It is interesting that DART expansion increases capacity from 26k people to 60k, but DU only adds an extra 20k.

It doesn't show DU to be great value. You can see why they have switched to phasing the DU project and are focusing on the DART expansion first. It adds almost twice as much capacity for a lot less cost.

Remember though that one of the reasons DU was being pushed to open up city centre access from the Kildare line. DART Expansion achieves this but less effectively using the PPT, and we still don't know how much reliance there will be on Docklands

cgcsb

I get the impression that The Northern Line is being bloated into a big long running saga of a public project IÉ talking about possible passing loops when it's brought to their attention that long distance trains will be doing the equivalent of a fast cyclist from Drogheda to Connolly. The consultants say: four track it for the value and the sake of a permanent fix, IÉ want a third track passing loop here and there, which won't do anything on a line with a 10min DART frequency.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

It is interesting that DART expansion increases capacity from 26k people to 60k, but DU only adds an extra 20k.

It doesn't show DU to be great value. You can see why they have switched to phasing the DU project and are focusing on the DART expansion first. It adds almost twice as much capacity for a lot less cost.

I expect that DARTu would have a much greater true capacity, but rather expanding the DART first is what's wanted so a little figure fudging is done. By building DARTu multiples more capacity is freed up on other lines, but these affects wont be counted because the modelling is too far out into the future with too many unknowns.

loyatemu

I've added the engineering report on increasing capacity between Greystones and Bray to the relevant thread:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110254389&postcount=35

It is interesting that DART expansion increases capacity from 26k people to 60k, but DU only adds an extra 20k.

It doesn't show DU to be great value. You can see why they have switched to phasing the DU project and are focusing on the DART expansion first. It adds almost twice as much capacity for a lot less cost.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

None of those south DART level crossings closures will ever happen in the current political climate, I'm sure of that. The ones along the Maynooth line will go fine though, I'm sure.

It's hard to know what the difference is....

I honestly don't even see how that's an issue, locals don't want the job done, just leave the gates down almost all the time and the job is effectively done

marno21

Of course the easy solution for the 4 tracking into Heuston is not to 4 track into Heuston but to divert 2 of the tracks into a tunnel somewhere around Inchicore.

The cost of the needless 4 tracking into Heuston would probably cover the entire cost of the DART Underground re-planning.

MJohnston

None of those south DART level crossings closures will ever happen in the current political climate, I'm sure of that. The ones along the Maynooth line will go fine though, I'm sure.

It's hard to know what the difference is....

cgcsb

Thrashssacre wrote: »

How do you four track to heuston the 3 track section is pinned in by the road and apartment blocks.

Extra track on the road side this will take some engineering retaining wall superstars brought in.

Thrashssacre

marno21 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131260452355432449

If the above is the actual plan I'm intrigued to see how they manage it

How do you four track to heuston the 3 track section is pinned in by the road and apartment blocks.

Sam Russell

For the Dart south of GCD.

They have a plan for the Merrion Gates. They could do the Serpentine Ave one by raising the line by a three metres and lowering the road by a similar amount - there is enough to allow a gentle incline in the tracks.

That would leave just Landsdowne (which should have been done as part of the stadium build), Sandymount ans Sydney Parade. If the Merrion Gate system goes ahed, the Sydney Parade will not be too important - not sure about the others.

Then there is the one at Bray.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

If the above is the actual plan I'm intrigued to see how they manage it

Yeah, I was looking at that slide with amusement.

marno21

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131260452355432449

If the above is the actual plan I'm intrigued to see how they manage it

CatInABox

Here's the Twitter thread, some interesting stuff here.

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131258079897694208

L1011

I think it'll need planning. Many other bits will anyway - depot, crossings, etc

Sam Russell

Will IR or TII need planning permission to put up the O/H wires on the proposed Dart expansion lines?

Could they just string up the lines?

L1011

There's some slides on Twitter from the Engineers Ireland presentation slide on this tonight. One has "reconfigure track at Clongriffin and Howth Junction" for the Northern line. I wonder if that means a Howth shuttle or something else. I think the actual presentation will be recorded which may elaborate on that

Also has "additional turn-back" for the Bray/Greystones line, doesn't say where on the slide.

Another slide claims that the upgrade works will increase rush hour capacity to/from the city centre to 52k from 26k; with an "infrastructure capacity" of 60k (so presumably some paths left for future rolling stock purchases); with DU bringing that to 80k. This clearly requires significant extra use of Docklands; although a P8 at Connolly is mentioned elsewhere.

Sam Russell

Mod:

@ BK & Lxflyer:

This is a disagreement about semantics. Can you settle it by PM as it is of little interest to anyone else.

Back on topic please. Those FLIRT trains are of interest, but only if we can get them.

LXFlyer wrote: »

They remain the property of Stadtler until they have completed fault free running. Until that point they aren’t handed over to Greater Anglia. Only at that stage will GA drivers even start driving them.

That’s quite a difference.

With all due respect you really don’t know the detail of this at all and maybe perhaps accept that some of us do.

Are they or are they not currently running on tracks in the UK?

Very simple question, because that is what I wrote.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Actually Greater Anglia have taken delivery of the first trains and they are in test, just not in service:

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2019/03/01/first-new-stanstead-express-train-arrives/
http://transportdesigned.com/greater-anglias-class-755-trains-now-tested/

Also if you go back and read my quote, I said:

Note the word RUNNING. Which they absolutely are, they are "running" on tracks right now. The above link has video of it running in the UK.

They remain the property of Stadtler until they have completed fault free running. Until that point they aren’t handed over to Greater Anglia. Only at that stage will GA drivers even start driving them.

That’s quite a difference.

With all due respect you really don’t know the detail of this at all and maybe perhaps accept that some of us do.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Greater Anglia has not taken delivery of a single set as yet. They remain the property of Stadtler at this stage. There’s a significant lead time before they come into passenger service - the first set hasn’t even cleared fault free running yet. Only at that point do they transfer to the train operating company and driver training starts.

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse a bit!

Actually Greater Anglia have taken delivery of the first trains and they are in test, just not in service:

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2019/03/01/first-new-stanstead-express-train-arrives/
http://transportdesigned.com/greater-anglias-class-755-trains-now-tested/

Also if you go back and read my quote, I said:

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now,

Note the word RUNNING. Which they absolutely are, they are "running" on tracks right now. The above link has video of it running in the UK.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

But the first have been delivered and are running, just doing testing, driver familiarisation, etc. So yes, not in service yet, but they are "running".

Greater Anglia has not taken delivery of a single set as yet. They remain the property of Stadtler at this stage. There’s a significant lead time before they come into passenger service - the first set hasn’t even cleared fault free running yet. Only at that point do they transfer to the train operating company and driver training starts.

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse a bit!

devnull wrote: »

No FLIRTS are in service yet and the first batch due to enter service are now running late.

But the first have been delivered and are running, just doing testing, driver familiarisation, etc. So yes, not in service yet, but they are "running".

devnull

bk wrote: »

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now, including 12 carriage monsters. So different bogies, more doors or doors on our side don't seem to be of any issue for them.

No FLIRTS are in service yet and the first batch due to enter service are now running late.

CatInABox

dublinman1990 wrote: »

IÉ won't be getting new DART carriages until 2023 at the very latest. That's an absolute joke.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/commuters-left-waiting-for-rail-carriages-until-2023-922876.html

Yeah, as soon as I heard the problems with refurbishment, I knew that similar problems would occur with leasing temporary trains. Ironically enough, if the NTA wasn't planning on buying new fleet, then leasing would probably go ahead without issue.

dublinman1990

IÉ won't be getting new DART carriages until 2023 at the very latest. That's an absolute joke.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/commuters-left-waiting-for-rail-carriages-until-2023-922876.html

roadmaster

A lecture is being webcast by Engineers Ireland about the dart expansion on the 22th may. I think anyone can log in to watch

http://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/dart-expansion-expanding-the-dart-network-in-the-g.aspx

L1011

The FLIRT is possibly the most flexible MU platform anyone has ever offered. They already do 1500v DC models as far as I remember

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

You are probably right, but just to point out, there are lots of FLIRTs running around the UK now, including 12 carriage monsters. So different bogies, more doors or doors on our side don't seem to be of any issue for them.

I am just complaining that we cannot have anything nice.

It appears to be capable of just what is needed. Would be good if we could get some EU money to help.