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Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

wexfordman2

Hi,

Thinking this might be a worthwhile information point and reference.

Good to get an idea of prices, and see if the recent grant is causing anomies etc.

If anyone cares to post up quotes they got (but excluding the company/supplier to keep mods happy).

We should show quote if system dimension, something along the lines of

4kw solar with 5kw battery and diverter 9,900 ex vat
5kw solar with 5kw battery and diverter 11,200 ex vat.

Additional info
This was for a "premium" solar panel with 30 year warranty.

Provider is seai registered, so grant is apicable, and he claims HRI/vat refund available also, however I believe thats an error.

Payment terms
20% on order
Additional 50% prior to install
Remaining 30% post commissioning

Quite for market standard panels as follows

4kw with 5kw battery 8750 ex vat
5kw with 5kw batter 9750 ex vat

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unkel

garo wrote: »

Solis 5kW inverter - 3kW max continuous, 5kW peak

You sure about that? Which Solis inverter exactly are you looking at?

My own one is the Solis 3.6kW dual MPPT model and I just saw it produce 3.6kW continuously when the clouds were gone for a while.

garo

Sorry you are correct. The 3kW is for EPS (Emergency Power Supply) so 3kW is limit when drawing from battery only. It can do 3.6kW otherwise. There is also a 5kW model which produces 5kW AC assuming there are enough panels.

unkel

Then you are talking about the 3.6kW Solis hybrid inverter. Don't get that one. The 5kW costs about the same (maybe 2% more) and you will be covered if you ever want to add more panels.

garo

Yes I remember you mentioning that before. So what happens when the total domestic draw is more than 5kW? How much is the grid AC pass through capacity? Unlimited?

unkel

Up to what ever the house connection is, I think most houses in Ireland are 12kVA, so theoretically in full sun you could draw 17kW

jimmyging

This is a recent quote I received
Ground mounted 20• 300 w tier 1 mono panels
5 kw solis inverter
2.4 kw battery ( not essential as have ev and high daytime draw but will take as buffer and to avail of grant )
iboost
11.5 k incl vat installed
If I use 5000 kWh / annum ( I have high usage with geothermal heating )payback will be 7 ish years . So say over 10 years this would give me a return of roughly 30% on the initial investment. That’s optimistic I know but with rising energy and carbon prices it might not be far off .

Am I off the mark on this ?

Kerryman3

jimmyging wrote: »

This is a recent quote I received
Ground mounted 20• 300 w tier 1 mono panels
5 kw solis inverter
2.4 kw battery ( not essential as have ev and high daytime draw but will take as buffer and to avail of grant )
iboost
11.5 k incl vat installed
If I use 5000 kWh / annum ( I have high usage with geothermal heating )payback will be 7 ish years . So say over 10 years this would give me a return of roughly 30% on the initial investment. That’s optimistic I know but with rising energy and carbon prices it might not be far off .

Am I off the mark on this ?

Sounds dear unless ground mounted dearer to install than roof mounted?
Plus not an expert but your panels total 6kW and presumably face south, will inverter have enough kW to handle power generated at peaks?

wexfordman2

jimmyging wrote: »

This is a recent quote I received
Ground mounted 20• 300 w tier 1 mono panels
5 kw solis inverter
2.4 kw battery ( not essential as have ev and high daytime draw but will take as buffer and to avail of grant )
iboost
11.5 k incl vat installed
If I use 5000 kWh / annum ( I have high usage with geothermal heating )payback will be 7 ish years . So say over 10 years this would give me a return of roughly 30% on the initial investment. That’s optimistic I know but with rising energy and carbon prices it might not be far off .

Am I off the mark on this ?

So, cost to you for 6kwp, 5kwh inverter and 2.4kw batter with boost is 7,700k after grant ?

Assuming the price of the boost is similar to price of an eddi, then your price is 500.chesper than what I got BUT, your are 4kwh short of battery storage.

Try and find lit of the cost.of the ground mount is pushing your proce up, and push for a larger battery, cos the lower battery is not a good deal imho

jimmyging

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, cost to you for 6kwp, 5kwh inverter and 2.4kw batter with boost is 7,700k after grant ?

Assuming the price of the boost is similar to price of an eddi, then your price is 500.chesper than what I got BUT, your are 4kwh short of battery storage.

Try and find lit of the cost.of the ground mount is pushing your proce up, and push for a larger battery, cos the lower battery is not a good deal imho[/quote

Yes that price is before grant .
They say ground mount is the same price as roof due to bracketing . It looks as if you price is better wexfordman . I was originally quoted extra 1 k for double the battery ie 4.8 kw but it doesn’t suit my needs with ev (30 kw battery and a phev which has a 10 kw battery , one of them sitting outside all the time )

selinacantrell

KCross

jimmyging wrote: »

If I use 5000 kWh / annum ( I have high usage with geothermal heating )payback will be 7 ish years . So say over 10 years this would give me a return of roughly 30% on the initial investment. That’s optimistic I know but with rising energy and carbon prices it might not be far off .

Am I off the mark on this ?

Geothermal wont generally be asking for energy when the panels are generating, so that wont help much.

Utilising your EV's to take the excess will help but you would need to remember to not charge the car at night to take the excess during the day... thats a fine balancing act between having a €30k battery sitting on your driveway and having a usable car!

Banking on 5000kWh being used is optimistic, imo. Was that just a nice round figure you came up with or something you've calculated based on knowledge of your daytime usage from an energy monitor? If the latter, then fair enough go for it... it will save you €400/yr relative to night rate.

randombar

unkel wrote: »

Then you are talking about the 3.6kW Solis hybrid inverter. Don't get that one. The 5kW costs about the same (maybe 2% more) and you will be covered if you ever want to add more panels.

Should have done the same. Don't know why I didn't.

Anyone want to swap

Kerryman3

jimmyging wrote: »

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, cost to you for 6kwp, 5kwh inverter and 2.4kw batter with boost is 7,700k after grant ?

Assuming the price of the boost is similar to price of an eddi, then your price is 500.chesper than what I got BUT, your are 4kwh short of battery storage.

Try and find lit of the cost.of the ground mount is pushing your proce up, and push for a larger battery, cos the lower battery is not a good deal imho[/quote

Yes that price is before grant .
They say ground mount is the same price as roof due to bracketing . It looks as if you price is better wexfordman . I was originally quoted extra 1 k for double the battery ie 4.8 kw but it doesn’t suit my needs with ev (30 kw battery and a phev which has a 10 kw battery , one of them sitting outside all the time )

Sorry, I assumed that was after grant, I think wexfordman2 has answered the query anyway.

jimmyging

KCross wrote: »

Geothermal wont generally be asking for energy when the panels are generating, so that wont help much.

Fair point

Utilising your EV's to take the excess will help but you would need to remember to not charge the car at night to take the excess during the day... thats a fine balancing act between having a €30k battery sitting on your driveway and having a usable car!
I agree with that

Banking on 5000kWh being used is optimistic, imo. Was that just a nice round figure you came up with or something you've calculated based on knowledge of your daytime usage from an energy monitor? If the latter, then fair enough go for it... it will save you €400/yr relative to night rate.

Well according to ideal position of PV panels and location I should be creating 6,600 kWh /annum with a predicted loss of between 1500-2000 to the grid I ballparked my consumption from panels at 5000 kw , again probably optimistic and I take your valid points Kcross and thank you for them as I need to hear worst case scenario on this investment.
I don’t know how relevant the €400/annum compared to night rate is as most of my consumption is daytime and obviously PV production is daytime .

garo

unkel wrote: »

Up to what ever the house connection is, I think most houses in Ireland are 12kVA, so theoretically in full sun you could draw 17kW

So if I go for 16 panels - would a 5kW Solis inverter be enough? I have heard that the panels can overproduce. I am going for an E/W orientation and probably a 10/6 or 8/8 split. One of the companies quoted me an additional mini inverter they would hook up 4 of the panels to for a safety margin. This would be non-hybrid so quite cheap.

KCross

jimmyging wrote: »

I don’t know how relevant the €400/annum compared to night rate is as most of my consumption is daytime and obviously PV production is daytime .

You have geothermal though, so how is it mainly daytime? It will be doing a significant portion of its work at night including hot water.

If the HP is setup to run mostly during the day you are screwing yourself!

DrPhilG

Finally heard back from Myenergi, they say to avoid a DC coupled battery:

Myenergi wrote:

The Zappi prefers to have an AC coupled battery due to the fact that you can apply a CT clamp directly to the feed of the battery so that in your case the Zappi will see what the AC battery present. The CT clamp will need to be set to "AC Battery" in the CT options.

The DC coupled batteries can be problematic. The issue they have is that they can discharge if they detect power from the grid, which means the Zappi will be using the stored power from the battery to charge, effectively discharging the battery. Within the Zappi you can configure export margins 100 W / 200 W / 300 W which means the the power will be ignored but this doesn't always work effectively.

And the quote I have for solar includes..... A DC battery.

unkel

I saw that mentioned in the other thread. :eek: :eek:

Everyone in Ireland who's getting the battery grant for their solar PV install is getting a DC side battery install (hybrid inverter). Charging car from battery is a very bad idea!!!

Evd-Burner

It shouldn't work like that though. If the inverter is set to 50w and the Zappi 150w then the cat will only charge when the export goes above 150w. The car will then charge only from the export of over 150w.

The only issue I see is if while the car is charging that the battery is full that the Zappi won't see the import prop up as it will be supplemented by the battery. if there was a firmware update to the Zappi so that it only kept charging while something was going to the grid then the battery would never deplete.

Stefs_42

unkel wrote: »

I saw that mentioned in the other thread. :eek: :eek:

Everyone in Ireland who's getting the battery grant for their solar PV install is getting a DC side battery install (hybrid inverter). Charging car from battery is a very bad idea!!!

my PV system going to be installed shortly and surely it will have a battery. but you got me worried there unkel, why is it a bad idea to charge car from battery?

unkel

Because a battery has a limited number of cycles, you can divide the extra cost of having the battery system installed (over the cost of a PV system without battery) minus the €1,000 grant by the number of kWh you can cycle in total over its life. The most popular battery is the Pylontech US2000, 2.4kWh, of which 2.2kWh is usable

According to its spec sheet (linky) it has 6000 cycles. That's 6000 * 2.2kWh usable =

I know a battery system after grant costs about €2000 (if you get a good deal) more than a non battery system, so 13200kWh can go out of the battery over its life. So one unit costs

€2000 / 13200 = 15c/kWh

Jesus, that's worse than I thought. Quite shocked by that. Let's be very optimistic and say you'll get 9000 cycles (that's 50% more than the manufacturer says)

Then the cost is

€2000 / 19800 = 10c/kWh

So every kWh that you charge from the battery, costs you more than charging your car at night rate (which costs 8c). So you actually lose money. And you accelerate the deterioration of the battery.

These figures also prove it is futile to charge your battery up with cheap night rate electricity, as it costs more than buying from the grid at the higher rate...

Stefs_42

unkel wrote: »

Because a battery has a limited number of cycles, you can divide the extra cost of having the battery system installed (over the cost of a PV system without battery) minus the €1,000 grant by the number of kWh you can cycle in total over its life. The most popular battery is the Pylontech US2000, 2.4kWh, of which 2.2kWh is usable

According to its spec sheet (linky) it has 6000 cycles. That's 6000 * 2.2kWh usable =

I know a battery system after grant costs about €2000 (if you get a good deal) more than a non battery system, so 13200kWh can go out of the battery over its life. So one unit costs

€2000 / 13200 = 15c/kWh

Jesus, that's worse than I thought. Quite shocked by that. Let's be very optimistic and say you'll get 9000 cycles (that's 50% more than the manufacturer says)

Then the cost is

€2000 / 19800 = 10c/kWh

So every kWh that you charge from the battery, costs you more than charging your car at night rate (which costs 8c). So you actually lose money. And you accelerate the deterioration of the battery.

These figures also prove it is futile to charge your battery up with cheap night rate electricity, as it costs more than buying from the grid at the higher rate...

so what is solution to this problem? its probably covered in this thread already. but to sum it up- how do you divert PV energy to your charger without using battery storage first to fill up your EV?

unkel

Get a PV system with a separate AC side battery system (like a Tesla Powerwall). It costs about the same to get installed, but is less efficient to charge (not that that matters an awful lot as the battery size is usually very limited). The latter is what I'm working on.

Or of course, don't install a battery at all. Even with the very generous subsidy it is doubtful it will ever pay for itself. Particularly not if we ever get a feed in tariff.
But you could argue that you expect electricity prices will go up considerably, which would make payback time come down

spose

rolion wrote: »

There are private logins ...and public view / guest enabled logins
Here is mine with public / guest enabled.

Thanks for sharing output. Very interesting to see actual data for those of us looking to take the plunge soon. I’ve also been keeping an eye on these 2 Kelliher’s electrical sites as the cork one is near me

http://www.rexelenergysolutions.ie/solar-electricity/live-sites/

I meant to ask ...is that a 4kw set up you have?

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

I saw that mentioned in the other thread. :eek: :eek:

Everyone in Ireland who's getting the battery grant for their solar PV install is getting a DC side battery install (hybrid inverter). Charging car from battery is a very bad idea!!!

Excuse my total ignorance here, but why is it a bad idea? And if I did have a Zappi and solar, how would I know if that is happening?

AidenL

Have to say, its sorry I don't have PV installed today.

It must have been a great couple of days for production.

niallers1

AidenL wrote: »

Have to say, its sorry I don't have PV installed today.

It must have been a great couple of days for production.

I had over 24kwh on Saturday and over 21 kwh on Sunday. Had to switch on the Immersion to use it. Still ended up giving away some to the grid for free.

(East/ West 4kw PV with 4.8kwh battery)

wexfordman2

generated 27 today, consumed 30, exported 3 and imported 6.

6 is a lot for me to be importing these days, typically 2kwh, but herself had oven, dryer, washing machine etc going late this evening, so thats where the import came from mostly.

I think I am reaching in excess of 80% utilisation these days, typically, the eddi really soaks up the excess a good bit (you can see my usage is high).

We have a lot of energy effeceint appliances, but we literally turn them on without a thought these days, especially the dryer, which is a heat pump dryer so runs on quite low power, and suit the solar very well.

You can see below a daily generation v demanded power and battery charge/discharge graph.If you look at the periods where the battery has finished charging, the demand almost matches the generation figure, which is the eddi tracking and sucking up the excess. Once the immersion gets full and the battery then fully charged, though, then the excess starts going out to the grid.

I am really surprised at how well it is tracking the excess and using it up.

[IMG][/img]

wexfordman2

generated 27 today, consumed 30, exported 3 and imported 6.

6 is a lot for me to be importing these days, typically 2kwh, but herself had oven, dryer, washing machine etc going late this evening, so thats where the import came from mostly.

I think I am reaching in excess of 80% utilisation these days, typically, the eddi really soaks up the excess a good bit (you can see my usage is high).

We have a lot of energy effeceint appliances, but we literally turn them on without a thought these days, especially the dryer, which is a heat pump dryer so runs on quite low power, and suit the solar very well.

You can see below a daily generation v consumption graph, and if you look at the periods where the battery has finished charging, the consumption almost matches the generation figure, which is the eddi tracking and sucking up the excess. Once the immersion gets full though, then the excess starts going out to the grid.

I am really surprised at how well it is tracking the excess and using it up.

[IMG][/img]

niallers1

@wexfordman Do you have a clothes line out the back. This would save you using the dryer as much. I find i'm using the line and just finishing them off in the dryer for half an hour. I'm soooo domesticated these days

, constantly doing the clothes wash and dish washer . My wife thinks it's brilliant:D

They should advertise solar PV as a labour saving device for the ladies:D