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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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Anteayer

Point 2 isn't even in government control. The ECB will not allow Ireland to go into another mortgage credit bubble.

TheChizler

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Reduce VAT on new developments - with the promise that developers such as himself wouldn't just go ahead and trouser this money

I think the point is that they might need to. At the moment there's so little private residential development because there's no profit in it. They don't do it out of the good of their hearts. Some developers say standards for new builds are too restrictive as well, making them too costly to build. Nobody wants to go back to the poor standards of the mid 00s but maybe something between then and now would be suitable to get past the current crisis.

who_me

cantalach wrote: »

Woah...how noisy would it be in an apartment perched over the South City Link Road!? No thanks.

The Dean hotel is being built immediately next to the train lines (and at the exit to the tunnel too, for extra reverb/megaphone effect!). Methinks Cork developers are going to get lots of practice at sound-proofing. I hope!!

(I actually don't mind the sound of traffic. After a while, I actually find it very soothing - then whenever I'm living in the suburbs or visiting parents in the country I find the silence really jarring).

Anteayer

The issue I'd see what that location isn't the noise. Rather, the access too the side of the building would require putting equipment and scaffolding onto the edge of a very busy dual carriageway that's a fundamental artery in and out of the city. There's absolutely no way that you can close or reduce volumes on the South Link, without causing a massive impact on access in and out of the city.

You don't encroach things onto key infrastructure like that unless there's a damn good reason and it's totally unavoidable or there's some legacy issue that you cannot get around.

It's also a reason why the M-designation for the N40 South Ring is absolutely essential.

ScrubsfanChris

namloc1980 wrote: »

Maybe interesting fact, the stone arches behind the filling station used to support the water storage tanks for the trains so I've been told

opus

They're not hanging around with the apartments on Millerd St, assume that's the lift shaft gone up.

Also assume this is the next development just down the road from there as it also had a planning notice for apartments.

who_me

namloc1980 wrote: »

Cheers for these photos, I'd never seen any of those railways. Crazy to think how well-served Cork was with railways/trams back in the day. You could hop on a train in Schull, switch at Skibbereen (different rail gauge), then carry on into the Albert Quay terminus in the city centre. If only we had that now.

On a semi-related note, can anyone tell me why the "site location" maps on the Cork City planning site often show on ancient ordinance survey maps? I was looking for the site of the 11 story development above and the maps were so old they still had this Albert Quay terminus and rail lines on them. Is there a reason they can't/don't use maps from the last 20 years?

Anteayer

Unfortunately they were basically replaced by changing technology and also changing economics.

In hindsight it was a bad idea but if you look at the spread of population and the move away from primary agriculture as the only economic driver. A lot of the railways' business came from moving cattle rather than passengers.

Really we've now built a society that can only be made transport sustainable by green energy and electric cars.

opus

snotboogie wrote: »

Student accommodation:

The old Crows Nest site (250 beds) got planning in March for 10 and 8 storey student accommodation and should hopefully start at some stage this year, UCC expect it open for Sept 2020. Appointing contractor in Dec for start in mid Jan 2018. No start in Q1. Hopefully this will start in May 2019.

https://twitter.com/CISireland/status/1111656253049241600

Was out for a jog along the Straight Road this evening & spotted a JCB in the old car park for the Crow's Nest, about to kick off maybe?

cantalach

opus wrote: »

Was out for a jog along the Straight Road this evening & spotted a JCB in the old car park for the Crow's Nest, about to kick off maybe?

Sign of the times that the first thought to pop into my head when I read "JCB" was "ATM heist".

namloc1980

who_me wrote: »

Cheers for these photos, I'd never seen any of those railways. Crazy to think how well-served Cork was with railways/trams back in the day. You could hop on a train in Schull, switch at Skibbereen (different rail gauge), then carry on into the Albert Quay terminus in the city centre. If only we had that now.

On a semi-related note, can anyone tell me why the "site location" maps on the Cork City planning site often show on ancient ordinance survey maps? I was looking for the site of the 11 story development above and the maps were so old they still had this Albert Quay terminus and rail lines on them. Is there a reason they can't/don't use maps from the last 20 years?

Also had terminus stations at Albert Street for the Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway, Capwell for the West Cork Railway, and Western Road for the Cork and Muskerry Railway. How about this picture of the Western Road train station - more or less where the River Lee hotel now sits. It closed in 1934:

marno21

Discussion on whether the boom is back in Cork or not from Newstalk earlier today

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-hard-shoulder/dublin-gets-everything-cork-city-just-poor-second-cousin

whisky_galore

Anteayer wrote: »

Really we've now built a society that can only be made transport sustainable by green energy and electric cars.

Good luck with that. The pretence that is green energy and cars impractical and unaffordable for most, and which still clog up roads just like conventional cars.
Meanwhile people have endure a bus service that's worse than useless at peak times.

mire

marno21 wrote: »

Discussion on whether the boom is back in Cork or not from Newstalk earlier today

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-hard-shoulder/dublin-gets-everything-cork-city-just-poor-second-cousin

There is nothing more cringe worthy than a vox pop in cork. The two lads interviewed at the end were embarrassing.

cgcsb

whisky_galore wrote: »

Good luck with that. The pretence that is green energy and cars impractical and unaffordable for most, and which still clog up roads just like conventional cars.
Meanwhile people have endure a bus service that's worse than useless at peak times.

Electric cars only play a small role in a sustainable transport future. The transition towards sustainability will be mostly achieved through more people living in bigger cities with shorter commute distances on more efficient modes. The electric car sources it's energy from cleaner sources than conventional cars however it is still an extremely inefficient use of energy to move a single person, not to mention a waste of road capacity.

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

Electric cars only play a small role in a sustainable transport future. The transition towards sustainability will be mostly achieved through more people living in bigger cities with shorter commute distances on more efficient modes. The electric car sources it's energy from cleaner sources than conventional cars however it is still an extremely inefficient use of energy to move a single person, not to mention a waste of road capacity.

There is a trend to conflate electric cars, Autonomous cars, and car sharing services (like go car),
There probably will end up being a lot of all 3,
, from a development point of view its the car sharing that's the most important part, if you don't need to own a car, then you don't need a car parking Space,
Of course if public transport is still lousey you'll need your car...

cgcsb

Markcheese wrote: »

There is a trend to conflate electric cars, Autonomous cars, and car sharing services (like go car),
There probably will end up being a lot of all 3,
, from a development point of view its the car sharing that's the most important part, if you don't need to own a car, then you don't need a car parking Space,
Of course if public transport is still lousey you'll need your car...

The single biggest reason for public transport being lousey is that it has insufficient roadspace allocated to it to ensure reliable and fast journey times. There are additional reasons, but road space is the main culprit.

whisky_galore

cgcsb wrote: »

The single biggest reason for public transport being lousey is that it has insufficient roadspace allocated to it to ensure reliable and fast journey times. There are additional reasons, but road space is the main culprit.

More like a combination of vested interests, an inability to reform public transport and an almost Thatcherite mindset that public transport is only intended for students, the retired and failures at life.
No one ever makes public transport an election issue, we're still happy to sit in cars that sometimes move at a crawl and at other times stand still and not see the irony.

Markcheese

Lack of road space doesn't help... But it's more than that, it's not run right.... Customer experience and ease of use doesn't come into it.
Bus routes are ****e, and busses themselves pretty unreliable, if you can't rely on a bus you won't use it..
Compare city buses to a luas,
The luas pull right up to the stop, you don't wait for every one to make it to the front door and alight before board, you just board ticketing isn't the drivers issue,
There's no reason that cork city buses couldn't be more like the luas, there is quite a bit of bus lane (also know as parking in quieter times, and I'll just nip down here lane at rush hour) in the city,
Corks small, if it gets 1 tram line (in 20 years time) it'll be doing well, it's buses and bus routes (and stops), and enforcement that'll deliver results...

chalkitdown1

Leo is in town today. I wonder if the Event Centre or other developments such as the M20 will be discussed....

cgcsb

Markcheese wrote: »

Lack of road space doesn't help...
Bus routes are ****e, and busses themselves pretty unreliable, if you can't rely on a bus you won't use it..

Those are the same thing, they are unreliable because they are sharing road space with cars too much. Mode separation is key. Multi door operation to reduce dwell times but real improvement in reliability are down to roadspace. This has been proven in Dublin time and time again. See the cat n cage works for example, airport bound buses are now 10 mins quicker at peak times as a result of simply giving road space to buses. Cork's proposed luas route will certainly be taking road space from cars in bucketfulls.

Cash is being phased out from next year in favor of leap, contactless payment and mobile/watch based payment, with a flat fare, dwell times at stops will be reduced as much as possible.

snotboogie

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

Leo is in town today. I wonder if the Event Centre or other developments such as the M20 will be discussed....

Nope, spent the whole time talking about some rural development scheme that has nothing to do with Cork City. He was specifically asked about the events centre and he fobbed off the reporter. No word on the M20

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

Those are the same thing, they are unreliable because they are sharing road space with cars too much. Mode separation is key. Multi door operation to reduce dwell times but real improvement in reliability are down to roadspace. This has been proven in Dublin time and time again. See the cat n cage works for example, airport bound buses are now 10 mins quicker at peak times as a result of simply giving road space to buses. Cork's proposed luas route will certainly be taking road space from cars in bucketfulls.

Cash is being phased out from next year in favor of leap, contactless payment and mobile/watch based payment, with a flat fare, dwell times at stops will be reduced as much as possible.

I'm not arguing that more roadspace shouldn't be given to public transport, I just reckon we shouldn't wait for the road space before improving the service... And honestly enforcement is going to need to be a big part of any service improvement..

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

Those are the same thing, they are unreliable because they are sharing road space with cars too much. Mode separation is key. Multi door operation to reduce dwell times but real improvement in reliability are down to roadspace. This has been proven in Dublin time and time again. See the cat n cage works for example, airport bound buses are now 10 mins quicker at peak times as a result of simply giving road space to buses. Cork's proposed luas route will certainly be taking road space from cars in bucketfulls.

Cash is being phased out from next year in favor of leap, contactless payment and mobile/watch based payment, with a flat fare, dwell times at stops will be reduced as much as possible.

marno21

Timelapse of the construction ongoing at Penrose Dock

https://vimeo.com/333313554

j8wk2feszrnpao

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm not arguing that more roadspace shouldn't be given to public transport, I just reckon we shouldn't wait for the road space before improving the service.

And that is the key concern. I lived out in Bishopstown, near the start of the No8 bus route, and it wasn't unusual for the bus to pass on the way out to Curaheen, and then either not turn up on time or extremely late to start the route (even when little to no traffic around). No point in increasing the roadspace if the service doesn't utilize it.

Apogee

Irish Examiner wrote:

A controversial Cork city convent site, which has had five owners since 1996 and which was twice ravaged by fire, in 2003 and again 2012, is back for sale.The Good Shepherd Convent in Sundays Well carries a guide price of €6.75 million, having secured new planning permission for 202 residential units: it last sold only three years ago, for just over €1.5 million.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/property/cork-citys-good-shepherd-convent-back-up-for-sale-with-planning-for-202-units-921322.html

sixpack's little hat

marno21 wrote: »

Timelapse of the construction ongoing at Penrose Dock

https://vimeo.com/333313554

What are the large cylinders, just for holding up the walls at the edge of the site?

fash

sixpack's little hat wrote: »

What are the large cylinders, just for holding up the walls at the edge of the site?

Until they get the permanent walls in place to do so, yes.

opus

Spotted another building being refurbed plus an extension at the back for extra apartments on the North Mall (a few doors from the Franciscan Well).