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Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

[Deleted User]

New thread carried on from here

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057824938

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bilston

Looks like Stockdale is going to miss the game on Saturday.

bilston

MaybeMaybe wrote: »

#mediumforce

If the range for a headbutt is 6-12 weeks then 9 weeks it is.

#mediumban

launish116

bilston wrote: »

Looks like Stockdale is going to miss the game on Saturday.

Big loss!

Best supposely back training also! Could really do with his scrumaging!

swiwi_

Deleted User wrote: »

As for the incident at the weekend I'm not sure what to make of it, it looks like it could be a headbutt but it also looks like it could be him sizing up to a taller player.

I like the vast majority of what you post venjur, but when it comes to defending Leinster players, your bias knows no bounds. I think you're the only Leinster fan on the forum I've read who doesn't think this was a headbutt, which is saying something. Wagons are routinely circled on here out of the loyalty that Irish fans (often commendably) show for their provinces, but a 1 wagon circle of wagons tells its own story.

It seems to me Reidy shoved or possibly half-heartedly punched McFadden, so he's no angel, but I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that justifies a headbutt.

You just need to post that Reidy was using a "camel grip" on McFadden and the circle will be complete.

I suppose you could argue McFadden was sizing up Reidy if medical testing shows McFadden has eyes on the top of his skull, hence needing to flex his head to see Reidy, otherwise that's a headbutt, and McFadden will be getting several weeks on the sidelines.

swiwi_

As an aside the person who comes out the worst in this is the touch judge IMO. Cowardly and ridiculous to defer to Clancy and the TMO when he clearly saw (and reported to Clancy) that it was a headbutt. Not even sure why he felt the need to agree to a TMO review.

molloyjh

Yeah it was a headbutt. It was stupid and it isn't the first time Ferg has gotten wound up like that. As a senior player he should know better and be setting a better standard. But I think calling him a dirty player is a stretch. I can only remember 1 other occasion where he did something this bad. In a 10 year career that's not enough to call him dirty. His no arm tackle was careless, but not deliberate. Hes had more of those (throwing everything into a tackle and making a balls of it) than generally dirty incidents. And even at that there haven't been an huge number of those either.

swiwi_

Ah yeah, the poster calling McFadden dirty is as biased in the Ulser direction as Venjur in the Leinster one IMHO.

[Deleted User]

swiwi_ wrote: »

Ah yeah, the poster calling McFadden dirty is as biased in the Ulser direction as Venjur in the Leinster one IMHO.

I said it could be a headbutt, but much like the ref on the night I couldn't be completely sure and I'd want to hear from both players first.

I sure am generally biased towards my team but not to the point of lost objectivity. If newer footage is clearer then I'll consider that in the same light, but what I saw at the time wasn't clear cut enough for me to be sure.

I don't see what's unreasonable enough about that to warrant your previous post.

Paul Smeenus

swiwi_ wrote: »

Ah yeah, the poster calling McFadden dirty is as biased in the Ulser direction as Venjur in the Leinster one IMHO.

Yeah, I completely 'fess up to that. Absolutely biased.

You will find posts from me about McFadden before, of course, expressing concern that he could lose us an international match with a rush of blood to the head. After Leinster matches that didn't involve Ulster. I've thought him "problematic" for a while now.

And I'm the only one that offered any context around how long our other Irish wingers have been banned for over the years. Surely that wider context is as objective as you can ask for?

Put it this way. Are there any other Irish wingers, with international honours, that have spent as long banned for foul play as he has? Or anywhere close?

molloyjh

Has Ferg ever been carded in an Irish Jersey? Banned? Penalised more than anyone else? Just because you've said it before, doesn't mean it's any more accurate or objective. I can count on 1 hand the discipline issues Ferg has had over the last decade, so I'm really not sure where you're getting this from tbh.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Has Ferg ever been carded in an Irish Jersey? Banned? Penalised more than anyone else? Just because you've said it before, doesn't mean it's any more accurate or objective. I can count on 1 hand the discipline issues Ferg has had over the last decade, so I'm really not sure where you're getting this from tbh.

So it's not reasonable to worry that if he is banned substantially mote playing for his province than any other Irish wingers, that that might happen one day in a green jersey? Right...

In fact, what you're saying is worse. If he can control himself in an international as well as anybody else, why the hell is he playing the cowboy at club level?

Former Former

I don't think anyone could dispute that McFadden has a short fuse. His "combative" nature is part of what makes him a really good player when he's maybe not the most natural winger. He's gone too far on occasion though.

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

What impact does a 6 week ban have (if he gets one?) . Mcfadden is pretty far from the world cup squad, but I bet he was hoping to get one shot in the seconds at a world cup warm up game. Gone now surely

It'd take a long line of injuries for Ferg to get close to the warm up squad, the likes of Adam Byrne, Sweetnam and Dave Kearney would be ahead of him for a call up, the only caps Ferg has picked up this season with Leinster have been during the international windows and then with the seconds.

swiwi_

Deleted User wrote: »

I said it could be a headbutt, but much like the ref on the night I couldn't be completely sure and I'd want to hear from both players first.

I sure am generally biased towards my team but not to the point of lost objectivity. If newer footage is clearer then I'll consider that in the same light, but what I saw at the time wasn't clear cut enough for me to be sure.

I don't see what's unreasonable enough about that to warrant your previous post.

Have you watched the video a few posts up ?????

It's much closer than the intial video, and makes the headbutt as clear as day.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

So it's not reasonable to worry that if he is banned substantially mote playing for his province than any other Irish wingers, that that might happen one day in a green jersey? Right...

In fact, what you're saying is worse. If he can control himself in an international as well as anybody else, why the hell is he playing the cowboy at club level?

Substantially more!? When was he last banned and how many times in his career has he been banned. From recollection he received 2 bans in 2016 for a reckless high hit and a reckless stamp. Neither were malicious. I dont recall a ban since and have no recollection of any bans prior to that. If I'm wrong then by all means let me know, but having watched Ferg for 10 years now hes not someone I'd ever describe as dirty.

Sinbad_NI

If head butting is not considered dirty then what exactly would it take to describe a player as dirty?

My thoughts...
I'd not class a punch as dirty. Stupid yes, but not dirty.
Something like biting or gouging goes way beyond dirty.
Id have a head butt as the very definition of dirty.

Sorry but zero sympathy for him. Hope he gets a substantial ban. No place for that crap.

molloyjh

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

If head butting is not considered dirty then what exactly would it take to describe a player as dirty?

My thoughts...
I'd not class a punch as dirty. Stupid yes, but not dirty.
Something like biting or gouging goes way beyond dirty.
Id have a head butt as the very definition of dirty.

Sorry but zero sympathy for him. Hope he gets a substantial ban. No place for that crap.

Let's be clear here, I'm not arguing against a ban or claiming it was anything other than a headbutt or anything remotely like that. I have no sympathy either. Seamus is claiming though that this is entirely within character for Ferg and he has always been a dirty player. This bit is simply not true. That Ferg has been suspended "substantially more" than any other winger is also not true.

A dirty act in and of itself does not make a dirty player. Heaslips knee to McCaws back was dirty. Hayes stamping on Cian Healys head was dirty. I doubt anyone would call either of those players dirty though.

[Deleted User]

Ferg loves a high tackle. Hardly ridiculous to call him dirty.

Buer

swiwi_ wrote: »

Have you watched the video a few posts up ?????

It's much closer than the intial video, and makes the headbutt as clear as day.

When I first saw it on television, I could actually understand to a degree why Clancy didn't red card him (a yellow had to be given though). The footage wasn't great and he was watching on a screen a distance away. But that is pretty blatant.

He's done. He should take 6 weeks and be happy for it.

I get the impression that McFadden is raging against the dying of the light. He was always hard as nails and exceptionally combative but in the last 2 seasons, he has definitely allowed an element of foul play creep into his game. Where the hits were hard and fair early on, they've fallen on the illegal side more regularly in the past 2 years. There's an element of the game being tidied up which is a factor there too but he could have legitimately seen red twice in recent weeks and had no complaints for head on head contact both times.

Anyway, Ulster thread and all that jazz...who would win in a fight? Iain Henderson or a polar bear?

molloyjh

AdamD wrote: »

Ferg loves a high tackle. Hardly ridiculous to call him dirty.

Really? How many more high tackles does he commit than others? How many of those are entirely accidental? He plays with a good deal of aggression, that sometimes means that when he gets it a bit wrong it has a greater impact. Thagt doesn't make him a dirty player. Plenty of players commit high tackles. Ringrose has been pinged for it a few times this season. Is he a dirty player too?

All that aside, it is ridiculous to say that headbutts are in character for him or to say that hes been banned "substantially more" than other wingers.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

A dirty act in and of itself does not make a dirty player. Heaslips knee to McCaws back was dirty. Hayes stamping on Cian Healys head was dirty. I doubt anyone would call either of those players dirty though.

Hayes was as filthy as he was overrated.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Substantially more!? When was he last banned and how many times in his career has he been banned. From recollection he received 2 bans in 2016 for a reckless high hit and a reckless stamp. Neither were malicious. I dont recall a ban since and have no recollection of any bans prior to that. If I'm wrong then by all means let me know, but having watched Ferg for 10 years now hes not someone I'd ever describe as dirty.

He's been banned for six weeks for foul play, not including anything that might come of this.

That's a month more than Earls has been banned, a month and a half more than Bowe was ever banned, a month and a half more than Trimble was ever banned, and a month and a half more than Gilroy has ever been banned. I think it's a month and a half more than Fitzgerald has been banned, and a month and a half more than Dave Kearney has ever been banned.It's a month and a half more than Stockdale has ever been banned, but that's hardly a fair comparison, given the stages they're at in their careers.

You are aware "more" is a term than necessitates relativism? Do I think those comparisons merit McFadden being described as being "substantially more" likely to be banned than any of those players? Yes, I 100% stand by "substantially more" (not withstanding three of them have retired...)

And why are we having this conversation? Because he's been cited again. Look at the figures and the facts. Being cited three times, for a winger, is A LOT. If he's banned, that'll be three bans, which, for a winger, is A LOT.

I'm talking about verifiable numbers, you're inside Fergus' head, saying you don't think his foul play can be described as "malicious", but "reckless".

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Let's be clear here, I'm not arguing against a ban or claiming it was anything other than a headbutt or anything remotely like that. I have no sympathy either. Seamus is claiming though that this is entirely within character for Ferg and he has always been a dirty player. This bit is simply not true. That Ferg has been suspended "substantially more" than any other winger is also not true.

A dirty act in and of itself does not make a dirty player. Heaslips knee to McCaws back was dirty. Hayes stamping on Cian Healys head was dirty. I doubt anyone would call either of those players dirty though.

I've offered, I think, fairly comprehensive comparative numbers in my previous post.

If I'm wrong, it should be eminently, objectively provable.

swiwi_

Buer wrote: »

Anyway, Ulster thread and all that jazz...who would win in a fight? Iain Henderson or a polar bear?

Henderson. Although James Ryan would take down the bear blindfolded without breaking a sweat. Munster fans would claim Beirne would be even better, but he seems to do better against provincial bears and struggles a bit against international ones.

Squidgy Black

swiwi_ wrote: »

Henderson. Although James Ryan would take down the bear blindfolded without breaking a sweat. Munster fans would claim Beirne would be even better, but he seems to do better against provincial bears and struggles a bit against international ones.

Beirne wouldn't have the size to compete at the level of international polar bears, he'll be shown up.

molloyjh

This is getting ridiculous. He'll have been banned 3 times in over 200 professional appearances. You can try and spin it any way you want, but you're clearly having a massive overreaction to this. His ban ratio would be far better than Balacounes (if I were to get similarly ridiculous), so I'm assuming you'll be keeping a close eye on him to make sure he behaves, right? 3 in > 200 is less than 1.5% whereas 1 from 12 is over 8%. :pac:

Mr Tickle

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Beirne wouldn't have the size to compete at the level of international polar bears, he'll be shown up.

I think you guys are underestimating the unseen anti-polar bear work that Devin Toner does.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous. He'll have been banned 3 times in over 200 professional appearances. You can try and spin it any way you want, but you're clearly having a massive overreaction to this. His ban ratio would be far better than Balacounes (if I were to get similarly ridiculous), so I'm assuming you'll be keeping a close eye on him to make sure he behaves, right? 3 in > 200 is less than 1.5% whereas 1 from 12 is over 8%. :pac:

I don't think I'm the one overreacting. This started because I said I had misgivings about Ferg for the international team. Balacoune is nowhere near the international team.

(I also had quite a detailed post above where I talked about the difference I saw between reds and bans from taking players out in the air, and tip tackles, and "dirty play". But that's neither here nor there, really. I don't want to start an endless argument about that.)

Look, I don't care. I think McFadden has become a dirty player, and if you disagree, fine. As long as he's not wearing green, it's Leinster's problem.

But I notice you've dropped your hysteria about the phrase "substantially more".

mfceiling

Is the bear in captivity or the wild?