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"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Nody

Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

This is ONLY about the specific episode! No information from any other source but listed below are allowed to be posted but book related information is allowed as well as the lore from the DVDs. Anything relating to interviews or articles directly related to this episode can be posted with a spoiler tag.

The "Next Episode" and any speculation on what may come in the future episodes should be put in the appropriate stickied Season 8 speculation thread; any funny pictures from the episode should be posted in this thread until Wednesday rather than the funny picture thread.

Note - No spoilers required for the current episode in this thread.

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Falthyron

Their first step should have been to establish an engagement area—a space in which they establish obstacles to disrupt and canalize the enemy so that they can be destroyed with direct and indirect fire.

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/

Pretty much... Then again, does a sound tactical plan translate to good TV? Probably not, especially when you need suspense to hide the lack of substance.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Mine is don't go to the well repeatedly, teasing deaths of characters with plot armour. Fine put them in peril but not several times an episode with chance escapes

Gwendoline Christie's acting really underlined that this week for me, really very raw desperate acting that genuinely seemed like somebody fighting for her life even though it was pretty unlikely she'd die. Either her or Jaime getting killed would have been well placed this week. And packed more of a punch than feckin Jorah, who the writers have been consistently more fond of than the audience ever was imo.

I'm not saying any criticism is illegitimate (all of mine are fine :pac:

) and god knows the show does have its fanboys.

Witcher

The past can't be changed as per Bloodraven's quote

He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.

duploelabs

Dunno where I picked it up (could be here), but could Bran have been warging back to his past self in order to tell himself to give the Valaryian dagger to Ayra in episode 4 of series 7 and hence the confused look on his face when he's handing it over to Ayra

Loafing Oaf

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Knight king would not have been knocked off his Dragon so he could have just burned Bran to death ,

But if all he wanted to do was kill Bran why not unleash his wight-hounds on the Godswood. Seems like he was intent on a one-on-one showdown with the 3ER, bit like this guy.

[Deleted User]

Sam Rapid Rafter wrote: »

I was annoyed when it started but that ship sailed literally years ago and there are people still for some reason shaking their fists at that horizon every fcuking week.

There are strengths it has now that weren't achievable in early seasons. Tyrion getting knocked out for a battle or Jaime getting captured off screen because of budget restrictions anyone? That increase in scope has meant a loss of nuance, yeah. But it's hardly zombie Simpsons territory. Still some superb acting, production design, cinematography etc. I can think of better programmes on right now, but none in this genre or on this scale.

The size of the a production that this show has grown to is just never going to have the detail, nuance and realism available to a novel writer. Look, maybe if there were no dragons, no wights, no massive battles, fleets of ships etc then we could have more of what we got in seasons 1-3 or 4.

It just seems people's expectations are a) a bit unrealistic and b) frankly nuts seeing as they're not based on the show as it has been for almost the majority of its run now.

Mine is don't go to the well repeatedly, teasing deaths of characters with plot armour. Fine put them in peril but not several times an episode with chance escapes

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Jofspring wrote: »

But aren't all those things what made Game Of Thrones stand out as one of the best shows on TV at the start? It's understandable that people would be annoyed to see it go from such an amazing, intricate show to a standard, all be it still someway enjoyable, show. It set itself a high bar in the beginning and has fallen off in recent seasons. It's perfectly acceptable for it to be open to criticism for this reason.

I was annoyed when it started but that ship sailed literally years ago and there are people still for some reason shaking their fists at that horizon every fcuking week.

There are strengths it has now that weren't achievable in early seasons. Tyrion getting knocked out for a battle or Jaime getting captured off screen because of budget restrictions anyone? That increase in scope has meant a loss of nuance, yeah. But it's hardly zombie Simpsons territory. Still some superb acting, production design, cinematography etc. I can think of better programmes on right now, but none in this genre or on this scale.

The size of the a production that this show has grown to is just never going to have the detail, nuance and realism available to a novel writer. Look, maybe if there were no dragons, no wights, no massive battles, fleets of ships etc then we could have more of what we got in seasons 1-3 or 4.

It just seems people's expectations are a) a bit unrealistic and b) frankly nuts seeing as they're not based on the show as it has been for almost the majority of its run now.

yourdeadwright

Beric = He was raised from the dead to save Arya without him she would have died in castle and the Night King would not have been defeated,

If you noticed he dies with his arm's held out like a cross holding each side of the door, A nod to him giving up his life for other like your man Jesus

Dothraki = Dothraki crossed the sea when they had never crossed a sea and then followed a women into battle, Two things people thought they would never ever do ,

There arc was to show people believe in Danny ,

Without the Danny & her Dragons : Winterfell would have been swarmed much earlier and the Knight king would not have been knocked off his Dragon so he could have just burned Bran to death ,

facehugger99

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Just realized... that episode has meant that Dany's journey in Essos was pretty much for sod all! All her struggle to get the Dothraki and the unsullied is utterly pointless as they were thrown away cheaply, and their sacrifice didn't have an bearing on how the for were dealt with. Her story arc has been made virtual obsolete.

If I was Dani, I would have been a bit more suspicious about the battle-plans as they basically seemed to involve her troops first mounting a suicide-charge and then the Unsullied taking the front-line damage to protect the retreat of everyone else back inside the castle.

[Deleted User]

The over did it with the bodies pouring in, when Jon was running through. Just looked stupid and no way he could navigate.

My main criticisms are
1. Too many near death escapes.
a/ Jon charges the King... Wooo it's on, he's raising the dead, will Jon make it? No, sh1t the King has won. Jon is surrounded, absolutely. Next he is backing up a hill, few walkers facing him, Dany arrives.
b/ Dany saves Jon and decides to stay grounded (why?), dragon swarmed, she's off, has to be toast, Mormount arrives.
c/ Jon rushes a ice dragon, fails, cowers, dragon comes over, about to eat him, Arya kills King (and saves absolutely everyone else also)

2. Jon and Night King: Why the hell have we had S.T.A.R.E.S. across several seasons and there is absolutely no payoff to it. Jon loses but doesn't, Night King wins but doesn't.
Would have been MUCH better to have swapped out Theon for Jon. Have Jon lose the one on one Vs NK, while defending Bran. Then have the sister he always looked after do her thing (would even had been better if needle had been Valyrian steel but hey). Theon could still have completed his redemption arc with this (and died if needed)

Jofspring

Sam Rapid Rafter wrote: »

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Criticism: Jesus, they took really intelligent books and kinda made a cartoon out of it. It's gone downhill.
Answer: FILLER EPISODE. FILLER EPISODE. Blood and **** blowing up. Whooooooo

Criticism: You are not too bright are you.
Answer; YOU are not to bright. Arya kicks ass. KICK-ASS YEAH.

Agree with the cartoonist elements but seriously that's been the case for at least the last season and a half. I think the shark was well and truly jumped when Arya survived that stabbing.

I don't see how it's rational to continue to expect one TV show when you have 20 odd hours very clearly showing it's another kind of show. To debate the finer points of the proper use of cavalry and trebuchets after watching various characters apparently teleport; Jaime swimming to safety in full armour and one hand across a lake whose deepest point is apparently right at its edge; Arya's stabbing, dothraki hordes sneaking up on an army, Jon happening upon those caves that held the answer to everything etc.

It's a completely different beast than it was, particularly in the first three seasons. It's increasingly tended towards spectacle over tight logic, serving the larger narrative at the expense of nuanced characterisation, shedding back story and mythology from the books.

Why this has to catch people by surprise and enrage them anew every week I cannot fathom. Enjoy and evaluate the show on it's own terms or stop watching, unless it's the iamverysmart complaining that's the actual source of enjoyment?

But aren't all those things what made Game Of Thrones stand out as one of the best shows on TV at the start? It's understandable that people would be annoyed to see it go from such an amazing, intricate show to a standard, all be it still someway enjoyable, show. It set itself a high bar in the beginning and has fallen off in recent seasons. It's perfectly acceptable for it to be open to criticism for this reason.

randomrb

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

1. If the Red Witch knew it was Arya in season 3 why did she see Jon in the Fire and not Arya. Why did she resurrect John so he could basically wander about playing dodgeball with a dragon. Why did she follow Stannis and Burn his daughter.

2. Why did Dani take over the Dothraki at all. Utterly pointless. Snuffed out in 2 seconds for a dramatic CGI effect.

3. Why did Dani and her Dragons even need to come North at all. Get a wight. Bring it to Kings Landing and convince Cersei to do the sum of f all.

The writing has been appaulling since the books expired.

It really came home to roost last night.

I suppose there is a reason its taken George RR so long to finish the book, if he can't even come up with a satifactory conclusion in as many pages as he wants how did we expect anyone to do if for a tv show with a very limited runtime

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Criticism: Jesus, they took really intelligent books and kinda made a cartoon out of it. It's gone downhill.
Answer: FILLER EPISODE. FILLER EPISODE. Blood and **** blowing up. Whooooooo

Criticism: You are not too bright are you.
Answer; YOU are not to bright. Arya kicks ass. KICK-ASS YEAH.

Agree with the cartoonist elements but seriously that's been the case for at least the last season and a half. I think the shark was well and truly jumped when Arya survived that stabbing.

I don't see how it's rational to continue to expect one TV show when you have 20 odd hours very clearly showing it's another kind of show. To debate the finer points of the proper use of cavalry and trebuchets after watching various characters apparently teleport; Jaime swimming to safety in full armour and one hand across a lake whose deepest point is apparently right at its edge; Arya's stabbing, dothraki hordes sneaking up on an army, Jon happening upon those caves that held the answer to everything etc.

It's a completely different beast than it was, particularly in the first three seasons. It's increasingly tended towards spectacle over tight logic, serving the larger narrative at the expense of nuanced characterisation, shedding back story and mythology from the books.

Why this has to catch people by surprise and enrage them anew every week I cannot fathom. Enjoy and evaluate the show on it's own terms or stop watching, unless it's the iamverysmart complaining that's the actual source of enjoyment?

[Deleted User]

awec wrote: »

Why did Melisandre die?

Her reason for her magic was to help defeat the walkers, that was the use the Lord of Light had for her.

bur

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

1. If the Red Witch knew it was Arya in season 3 why did she see Jon in the Fire and not Arya. Why did she resurrect John so he could basically wander about playing dodgeball with a dragon. Why did she follow Stannis and Burn his daughter.

2. Why did Dani take over the Dothraki at all. Utterly pointless. Snuffed out in 2 seconds for a dramatic CGI effect.

3. Why did Dani and her Dragons even need to come North at all. Get a wight. Bring it to Kings Landing and convince Cersei to do the sum of f all.

The writing has been appaulling since the books expired.

It really came home to roost last night.

It's been well established that Mel's interpretations of her visions are inconsistent at best.

bur

Well I ****ing loved it anyway.

A lot of people crying about it i see, still judging it based on the book or seasons 1-4 and not what the show has become. I've long given up hope of the show satisfying the book reader in me so didn't care how anticlimactic the NKs end was, even though that's still one of the few complaints i can actually understand.

In context that was a truly epic slice of cinema.

Only minor complaint would be Jaime and Brienne getting lost in the action and not doing anything significant with 'Ice 2.0'. And maybe one more epic death.

Mr. Incognito

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Just realized... that episode has meant that Dany's journey in Essos was pretty much for sod all! All her struggle to get the Dothraki and the unsullied is utterly pointless as they were thrown away cheaply, and their sacrifice didn't have an bearing on how the for were dealt with. Her story arc has been made virtual obsolete.

Yay! For bad writing, being so bad that it has deep reprecussions.

Also loved how Lord Beric was raised from the dead 6 times, all so he could be a human meat shield. Utterly crap!

The more we think about it, the more we all start to see how poor it is.

1. If the Red Witch knew it was Arya in season 3 why did she see Jon in the Fire and not Arya. Why did she resurrect John so he could basically wander about playing dodgeball with a dragon. Why did she follow Stannis and Burn his daughter.

2. Why did Dani take over the Dothraki at all. Utterly pointless. Snuffed out in 2 seconds for a dramatic CGI effect.

3. Why did Dani and her Dragons even need to come North at all. Get a wight. Bring it to Kings Landing and convince Cersei to do the sum of f all.

The writing has been appaulling since the books expired.

It really came home to roost last night.

Jofspring

I know people are going to say that we are reading too much into it and just enjoy it for what it is but it's gotten so blatantly lazy compared to when it started out.

There is a lot of criticism out there for the people that aren't happy about the last episode but the sheer volumes of people that are annoyed by it speaks volumes really.

When all these fan theories were coming out at the start of this season I wonder were D&D sitting there thinking, oh **** they are some good ideas, ours now looks crap.

Tired Gardener

Just realized... that episode has meant that Dany's journey in Essos was pretty much for sod all! All her struggle to get the Dothraki and the unsullied is utterly pointless as they were thrown away cheaply, and their sacrifice didn't have an bearing on how the for were dealt with. Her story arc has been made virtual obsolete.

Yay! For bad writing, being so bad that it has deep reprecussions.

Also loved how Lord Beric was raised from the dead 6 times, all so he could be a human meat shield. Utterly crap!

The more we think about it, the more we all start to see how poor it is.

Mr. Incognito

This seems to be the defence of most people to any sort of rational criticism.

Criticism: It's too dark.
Answer: Its in the Winter in the Snow.

Criticism: Well that's a bit silly. I dont watch Shark week underwater. Its telivision. Its supposed to be entertainment. We are supposed to be able to SEE it.
Answer: It's Skys fault.

Criticism: Jesus all the major characters managed to survive.
Answer: That's their character arc. They are bad ass.

Criticism: You would think that all those major military minds and Tyron would come up with a competent strategy.
Answer: uuuu It's not Military History channel.

Criticism: How did Jorah and John teleport over or through the 100,000 dead.
Answer: Look. Its a show with Dragons. Deal with it.

Criticism: Jesus, they took really intelligent books and kinda made a cartoon out of it. It's gone downhill.
Answer: FILLER EPISODE. FILLER EPISODE. Blood and **** blowing up. Whooooooo

Criticism: You are not too bright are you.
Answer; YOU are not to bright. Arya kicks ass. KICK-ASS YEAH.

Sparko

I'd have liked to see Rickon in the crypt, and maybe Hodor in the army.

muppetkiller

One thing that really wrecked my head was the Ice Dragon clearly destroys the Castle walls when he blows the Ice fire on it. But John Snow is able to avoid the flame by hiding behind a rock and a small wall.

PhiloCypher

As disappointing as that Got episode was in its execution and as a abrupt climax to to 7 years of build up with the NK. Its hard to see (literally) how it was ever going to be anything other then thus. GRRM set up so many end games in his books that it was always likely that one or the other was going to get short changed. And as the show is called Game of Thrones not The Long Night it was always the former that would counterintuitively be given priority over the existential threat that the White Walkers posed.

That being said the execution could have been far far better. Jon Robb an Author and Military Analyst wrote an interesting thread on twitter ( https://twitter.com/johnrobb/status/1122816316073828352?s=19) on how they could have better prepared their defences at Winterfell and used the Dothraki to peel off and destroy large contingents of Wights in harassing raids as they made their way south. It would certainly have been a better use of them then using your entire Dothraki cavelry up in one suicidal frontal charge, all for the sake of a cool shot of all their flaming Arakhs being extinguished. They should have been used to harass the flanks of the horde with obsidian and flaming arrows, to take pressure off the unsullied and misc other soldiers on the front line. Attacking and wheeling away like the Mongol/hunnish steppe horse omads they were clearly based on and not charging in head first like the Medieval armored catapharacts they clearly aren't.

Then there was the lighting. GoT has done night time battles before for budgetary and atmospheric reasons and I can rationalise a lot of the decisions made here by both the NK and Benihoff and Weiss . If I was the NK I would attack at night for maximum tactical advantage too. The blizzard too makes sense, in context, to sow confusion. Dragon fire and flaming arrows just look cooler in the dark. It saves money for the, hopefully, daytime battle to come with Cersei. I understand all this . But it doesn't make the battle any more enjoyable to watch. The scenes of Arya the hound and Beric in the corridors were near impossible to make out on my, admittedly non 4k TV (a 1080p LG). I was convinced I'd seen Beric sacrifice himself and get stabbed a dozen times blocking the corridor so the others could escape, and the next thing I know he's there with them in the Room with Milisandre. It just just impossible to follow.

With regards to the big twist of it being Arya not Jon or Dany who vanquishes the NK. It feels Rian Johnsonesque. Yes it would have been a bit pat and cliche for either Jon or Dany to be Azor Azhai as well as the true heir to the seven Kingdoms but it can't help but feel like Rug has been pulled on the endgame we felt was coming between Jon and the NK since Hardhomme and between Dany and NK since he killed one of her Dragons. That all being said its hard to begrudge Arya and Maisie her moment. I'd predicted she'd make an attempt on the NK in the godswood as soon as she gave Gendry the specifications for the that Bo staff/spear, granted I thought the attempt would be with said spear and that she wouldn't succeed. I even said to the people I was watching it with that Theon should have had a spare Drogon glass blade to surprise the NK with when he dropped his guard after mortally wounding him. 5 mins later Arya does essentially that. One thing I wish they had established more was where exactly did Arya come from, did she leap from a tree, did she manage to get so close by faceless manning a Wight?

As for the other point of contention, the lack of significant deaths, while it does begger belief that so many of them survived given the dire straights they were in, most of the surviving characters were key players in the 'Game of Thrones' so to see them fall before the Game of musical Thrones comes to its climax would be a miss use of them.

Loafing Oaf

Sam Rapid Rafter wrote: »

What was bran at? Was he just flying crows around inside a cloud seeing if there might be an auld Dragon there, was he trying to entice the NK, what?.

https://twitter.com/DanAmira/status/1122701011280433152

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So so much talk of dragonglass in S7. But only the natives get it I guess.

Dothraki were never going to get near the WWs, what's the point of giving it to them to bring it irretrievably far from the siege to use against enemies who can be killed with regular weapons?

Only real gripe for me was the suspension of disbelief required for Sam, Jaime and Brienne to survive despite being constantly on the verge of being overwhelmed by dozens of wights and similar for Jon being surrounded by newly risen ones. As said up thread, if they're going to survive don't keep putting them in those positions for a pseudo cliffhanger that's done away with 30 seconds later. I'd imagine it's more plot armour than fan armour per se though.

I think part of the shabbiness of that is probably inherent in the structure of the episode and the challenge of editing and pacing it. A dozen or so primary characters, in one location, over the course of one battle. I think probably some course of action could have been found that didn't vaguely create the impression that for example, wights arose, stared Jon down, and then waited a few minutes for the camera to come back to them before moving lining up to fight him one by one. I know I know, things aren't happening in real time relative to each other but it's distracting.

Arya taking out the NK I've no problem with, not like pipe for her being an excellent assassin hasn't been laid, and nice resolution for Melisandre. He's always avoided close-up hand-to-hand combat (even fighting Jon at Hardhome and the like he had a broad sword) and as far as I understand it wasn't his plan this time until he fell off his dragon like a big dope with a big gormless fally head on him. She got close, he underestimated her. Loved her sequence inside the castle, Maisie Williams is class. Don't really think gripes about his motivations and goals being developed are that valid either, it's been hammered home for several seasons, his goal is to kill all mankind with the motivation of them all being dead, it's what he was created by the children for.

Not sure what the point was of showing ghost for like 3 seconds at the start.

What was bran at? Was he just flying crows around inside a cloud seeing if there might be an auld Dragon there, was he trying to entice the NK, what?

Strong episode overall I'd say, the same inconsistencies in internal logic that have crept in since they passed the books but there are episodes with way worse examples of that and less to recommend them imo.

Loafing Oaf

facehugger99 wrote: »

Before Melisandre showed up, what was the plan for the Dothraki?

It seemed like they were ready to charge into the white walkers with just regular arakhs. Did that not strike anyone there as a bit pointless

Well why was anyone out front at all, given what we and presumably they knew about the (if I can use the acronym) AOTD. Surely the thing to do would be to get everyone inside Winterfell, put every kind of booby trap out front, and put your best archers on the walls.

Irishcrx

Well , that was a mixed bag to be honest. So much excellent build up and tension and it really only hit half the mark for me , for such an anticipated battle I felt beyond the issue of actually being able to see what was going on in any clear way they also copped out on a lot of thing's.

The characters they killed off didn't have a huge impact for me and although the tension rose I actually never felt any of them were in real danger by the final scene and copped it would be Arya once she had the discussion with Melasandra 'Blue Eyes' etc...

There was no loss , no dragons , no main characters , no real emotion... Some would say the whole thing was pointless and the White Walkers served nothing more in the end than to weaken their army and set up Cercei...

So many ways they could have gone with it , I'd have preferred if the NK caught Arya and then strangled her that would have been a ballsy move and made more sense the his ark , it would have been a brave and fitting end for her to...I'd have preferred to have lost several main characters and then the few remaining have a re-group...more backstory to the White Walkers and NK for the next episodes..

Thousands of hours of plot theories and questions and no answers , what did the symbols mean? Who was the NK? What did he want? What's his backstory? Why always a stark in Winterfell? Prince Promised? What happened when they came before? Why was John Snow so significant in the end?

Most likely none of the above will now be explained , I don't know what the next 3 episodes have in store but my hopes are now slightly lower as are my expectations...but I really hope the means justify the end.

I also wonder if this will all go differently in the books when they are released.

Mokuba

When you have a far, far inferior sized army - it's always good to send the entire cavalry far away to engage the enemy you cannot see and you know can resurrect any who die.

But they wanted the visual of the lights going out. Sums up the priorities. Style over substance.

[Deleted User]

facehugger99 wrote: »

Before Melisandre showed up, what was the plan for the Dothraki?

It seemed like they were ready to charge into the white walkers with just regular arakhs. Did that not strike anyone there as a bit pointless - the whole setting the arakhs on fire seemed to be a spur of the moment thing and not part of the original plan.

Logic is being sacrificed on the altar of 'coolness', which is so far away from where the original source material started out.

So so much talk of dragonglass in S7. But only the natives get it I guess.

facehugger99

Before Melisandre showed up, what was the plan for the Dothraki?

It seemed like they were ready to charge into the white walkers with just regular arakhs. Did that not strike anyone there as a bit pointless - the whole setting the arakhs on fire seemed to be a spur of the moment thing and not part of the original plan.

Logic is being sacrificed on the altar of 'coolness', which is so far away from where the original source material started out.