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"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Nody

Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

This is ONLY about the specific episode! No information from any other source but listed below are allowed to be posted but book related information is allowed as well as the lore from the DVDs. Anything relating to interviews or articles directly related to this episode can be posted with a spoiler tag.

The "Next Episode" and any speculation on what may come in the future episodes should be put in the appropriate stickied Season 8 speculation thread; any funny pictures from the episode should be posted in this thread until Wednesday rather than the funny picture thread.

Note - No spoilers required for the current episode in this thread.

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Gbear

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

The darkness I have to admit was a bit of a pain, I turned up the brightness on my TV to view it, but it's not like this is unexpected, the show has always been lit this way, they use naturalistic lighting on purpose to give the audience an immersive feeling. We're supposed to be able to imagine what it must be like to be in that situation. It's a technique they've used in most battle episodes to disorient us in the same way the characters are disoriented.

It'd be interesting to do a side by side with the battles of Castle Black and Blackwater, because I don't remember having the same problem with those, although I wasn't as disdainful of the show back then.

Triceratops Ballet

The darkness I have to admit was a bit of a pain, I turned up the brightness on my TV to view it, but it's not like this is unexpected, the show has always been lit this way, they use naturalistic lighting on purpose to give the audience an immersive feeling. We're supposed to be able to imagine what it must be like to be in that situation. It's a technique they've used in most battle episodes to disorient us in the same way the characters are disoriented.

yourdeadwright

Do people really think that will be the end of the white walkers ?

Gbear

Necro wrote: »

I mean, you're comparing a TV show battle with less of a budget to a blockbuster film. Dont you think that's a bit mental?

Also, as others have said. They were fighting the Night King. That should be an indication there on why it was so dark.

Rewatched it last night again and either I have a better TV than all of you or there's too much complaining. I could see all I needed to see. Really dont get the hullabaloo at all.

For one thing, I'm not sure they do have less of a budget than LOTR, but regardless, it wasn't a budget problem but a design decision that made them decide that it should look ugly.

ArmaniJeanss

Mokuba wrote: »

The Merrett Frey bit is supposed to highlight that not every Frey was directly implicated and that not all Frey's are pure evil. LSH didn't discriminate though, just as Arya didn't.

Eh, Merrett Frey was an accessory to murder, even if his part was minor.
His (failed) role was to get the Greatjon so drunk that he couldn't fight.

RDM_83 again

2ndcoming wrote: »

The vast majority of people claimed last week that Brienne was "obviously" dying, along with Grey Worm, Jaime, Tormund, Sam etc. However the problem this week is you never thought they were going to die because "plot armour". You can't have it both ways, like. It's one thing wanting to be shocked by deaths of characters. The whole world predicted it en masse a week ago so that was hardly going to be shocking. Complaining then that a bunch of main characters we've followed for a decade didn't die in a way that wouldn't have shocked anyone anyway just so your prediction could be right is a bit tragic, surely?

I'm not for one second suggesting much of the criticism is coming from a bunch of edgelords wanting to poke holes in something exceptionally popular. But to read the thread some may well believe that.

I will admit this episode subverted my expectations and suprised me.

Unfortunately it subverted my expectation that it was a series where actions have consequences and major characters can die not Marvel grade fan service. Its subverting the whole schtick of the books and the series pre S6 in a very unsatisfying way.

It surprised me that the big magical threat of what more than 70-80 hours of show time and 7-8 thousand years in world time was dealt with by a kick ass adolescent girl.

I don't actually mind epic fantasy that plays by the tropes when its done well e.g David Gemmel, this was never that type of thing though

frisbeeface

Question for book readers: do the books mention the army of dead wights from the previous Long Night?

Watching that episode I don't see how the army of the dead can be defeated, except by killing the Night King. An army that is tireless, doesn't need food or shelter and is infinitely regenerating is unstoppable. I just can't figure out how the long night would have lasted as long as a generation against that!

Necro

Gbear wrote:

Of course, the tone that LOTR goes for isn't the same. LOTR is a fairy tale. But there's something to be said for it not feeling like someone has rubbed a load of dirt on your eyeballs.

I mean, you're comparing a TV show battle with less of a budget to a blockbuster film. Dont you think that's a bit mental?

Also, as others have said. They were fighting the Night King. That should be an indication there on why it was so dark.

Rewatched it last night again and either I have a better TV than all of you or there's too much complaining. I could see all I needed to see. Really dont get the hullabaloo at all.

Jofspring wrote:

Epic Battle episode but very worrying for the rest of the season. As others have mentioned there has been a huge mystery behind the Night King, wights etc... So are we now just to accept that the night king wanted to kill Bran as somehow that would help him alive forever (even though he has already lived for thousands of years) and that's all there is to it?

Lol. It's literally called Game of Thrones. Dont you think that if they finished with the Night King wiping everyone out and continuing his slow silent march south that there would be way more outrage?

I'm honestly depressed reading these two threads here on Boards. It seems some are unhappy it didn't fit their perfect idea of what should.

The blame for that actually lies with the laziest buffoon in all of literature, GRRM. Had he finished the books instead of fading around for decades at this point there wouldn't be as many arguments. Shame on him.

2ndcoming

The vast majority of people claimed last week that Brienne was "obviously" dying, along with Grey Worm, Jaime, Tormund, Sam etc. However the problem this week is you never thought they were going to die because "plot armour". You can't have it both ways, like. It's one thing wanting to be shocked by deaths of characters. The whole world predicted it en masse a week ago so that was hardly going to be shocking. Complaining then that a bunch of main characters we've followed for a decade didn't die in a way that wouldn't have shocked anyone anyway just so your prediction could be right is a bit tragic, surely?

I'm not for one second suggesting much of the criticism is coming from a bunch of edgelords wanting to poke holes in something exceptionally popular. But to read the thread some may well believe that.

facehugger99

Tired Gardener wrote: »

This robs the previous episode of its impact, this is what I think annoys me the most. Episode two was brilliant, easily one of the best episodes in TV, and now it has lost all impact, all that atmosphere built up that this is their last night, all that emotion displayed is rendered pointless.

This.

The scene with Jamie and Brienne would have taken on so much pathos in retrospect if they both die at each others backs in the battle.

Instead the writers chickened out and had every main character except Sir Friend-zone survive.

God, I hate the notion of 'fan-service', but this episode summed up everything that's wrong with it.

Had really been looking forward to seeing how this series ended after last week, now I'm totally deflated and have no confidence in any kind of satisfactory resolution. We've bumped off the NK and have Cersei left for 3 episodes - great.

Still I'm sure we'll get a 20 minute Cleganebowl - Go Fan Service!

fash

Pter wrote: »

I was thinking about the dothraki tactics, placement of trench and placement of trebuchets today since it was brought up on thread.

I think it panned out the way it did because they were facing the dead. Yes a cavalry charge on the flanks would relieve pressure on the centre if the enemy were human and looking to preserve their number. But the enemy doesn't care about their soliders getting injured, nor do they care about their number depleting.

As such the dothraki would have been useless if only used on the flanks.

Likewise why not have the trebuchets up front. You get extra range out of it, and the dead weren't looking to capture and use them, so why not. The dead were always going to rush forward anyway, so their use would be neutralised once it became close quarter fighting.

And finally the trench. This was placed behind the formed ranks because it wasn't supposed to stop the deads advance, merely slow it for a period to allow retreat into the castle.

Or something.... As you can tell i haven't given it much thought.

Based on good tactics alone, the humans could have won: use two layers of fire trench with specific openings to create killing fields where the wights are slaughtered. Lock the wights in in between said two trenches then burn them. Keep the trebuchets at the back to keep on firing for as long as possible softening up the numbers, have lots of pitch or burning stuff to drop down from the castle walls, use the cavalry at the back to continue scything through the undead - the way the dragons were used to take pressure off the front. Man the walls properly - they had less than a third of the necessary manpower due to losing manpower in front of the castle - allowing the wights in too easily. Have more pitch at the base of the castle to burn there as the wights reached that point. Fall back into the castle using the small corridors against the more numerous wights to give further advantage, burning as you go.
They knew from Hardholme that there would be a death tsunami yet put their soldiers in front of the trenches to face certain death- why? Especially when they could have used the men on the castle walls.

[Deleted User]

Years and years of reading theories and watching videos delving into the lore, and then the showmaker's admit they had Arya kill the NK because that would be the most surprising.

W T F

Prince that was promised and all that prophesy? Killing a lion, then killing the one you love? Lightbringer? Will it be Jaime killing Cersei? Jon killing Dany?

Nah, we just need a little ninja. Good going Arya. You got the ride last episode and killed the NK this week. Next week, I'm sure you'll do your faceless man shlte and kill Cersei. Such good television. Jon being a fuking Targ and riding dragons is going to be a 20 minute conflict in the last episode. A theory people been taking about for decades won't matter.

And then people are like "oh you just don't like Arya." Tf. I think the only way to get this through to people is by asking them for their favourite finished TV show and butchering the plot and asking them if they'd still like it.

Jofspring

Epic Battle episode but very worrying for the rest of the season. As others have mentioned there has been a huge mystery behind the Night King, wights etc... So are we now just to accept that the night king wanted to kill Bran as somehow that would help him alive forever (even though he has already lived for thousands of years) and that's all there is to it?

Let down story wise and just shows that the two lads really have been lost without the books to help guide them. I don't care if George RR Martin has helped with the storyline, the drop off has been very noticeable and they are just rattling off scenes that we are supposed to accept as the answers to 8 years of questions and more if a book reader.

Tired Gardener

I honestly feel cheated, the more I think about it, the worse this episode is.

From the first episode of series one and also the first book we have had both the Dothraki and the Others/white walkers introduced as legitimate threats to Westeros, they are not meant to be things to be taken lightly, or dismissed. The Dothraki were thrown under the bus within the first 10 minutes, all for a visual scene. This undoes all the work of the last 8 years if the show and 23 years of the books.

Arya went from being suddenly scared of wights, to somehow appearing right next to the Night King even when he is surrounded by all the White Walkers and loads of Wights and not be scared, or even hindered. At no point did Arya feel like she was in danger, look at when we saw Brienne, Jamie, the Hound fight. We felt like they could die at any minute... Arya is meant to be a powerful character sure, but her character has become the victim of fan service. We can identify with characters who are fallible. It is common now to not write strong female characters, but infallible female characters.

John was in the middle of hundreds if not thousands of slain when the Night King raised them... yet they all attack one by one. Then he somehow managed to get from outside the castle which is now swarming in wights, to within the castle... where he went through his video game battle of hide and seek with a wight Dragon. Also before this he was in the dragon perched on the castle wall when they were trying to light the trenches.... his dragon literally breaths out fire, yet for some reason he didn't light the fire. He would have been aware of the plan, and also been aware of the flow of battle. John has always choose duty over love, so doubt he would have been too focused on Dany's where abouts to forget the strategy.

The wights have been seriously down powered where the plot required. Fire kills them, dragon glass and valeryian steel is what kills White Walkers. Even when cut in half a wight still remains a dangerous and aggressive threat... remember the one that was brought down to Kings Landing? Now look at the ones in this battle, they feel very easily. Wights while tireless can't break through wooden doors (Hardholme), or things like that... yet they can smash through stone crypts, really? I mean really... what do the Starks bury their dead in chalk sarcophagi?

The main characters had plot armour that made most of the scenes tension free, the only characters to die are all (barring Ser Jorah) virtually no bodies. This robs the previous episode of its impact, this is what I think annoys me the most. Episode two was brilliant, easily one of the best episodes in TV, and now it has lost all impact, all that atmosphere built up that this is their last night, all that emotion displayed is rendered pointless.

Yay the Dothraki... Let's send them out randomly to attack the dead, in the dark, and not wait till we have seen the army. Oh look they all died. Maybe we should have used these Stone throwers to bombard the enemy first... nah, send in the cavalry first. Also, it sure is a good job we deployed all the forces in front of these trenches we dug, standing behind them... nah, that is for cowards, also let's deploy stone throwers in front of the castle. While we're at it as well, let's have all the non natives to the seven kingdoms, those who aren't fighting for their lands, in front so they can die first... All those elite fighters, mean while the natives get to stand in the castle.

The Night King, wow. Talk about being utterly pointless, so from the very first scene the White Walkers have been portrayed as the real threat, as this big looming ancient enemy that has been plotting their plans for thousands of years. They are beyond Human, they are death, and utterly terrifying. Yet they were defeated by a 16 year old who has had a year training as an assassin. What was the point! It has in that one episode made them into a joke. Am I honestly to believe that a being as old as the Night King would fall for such a simple trick? He has had thousands of years, think he'd be a better fighter than that... especially after what we saw him do to a Dragon. Reducing the army of the dead like that is lame, cheap, and makes their whole story arc pointless as no main characters died. These are the things that Men, Children if the forest, and giants built the wall to keep out. This episode has just made them a massive red herring.

How the hell is Sam still alive?

It just feels that as the series has ran out of books to adapt it has suffered... also 80 minutes of fighting, utter snore fest!

I did like the dialogue between Sansa and Tyrion. That was very moving and sad.

Hazys

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

Really wanted Bran to address the Night King by his original human name during the stare off.

Bran: "Hello Jim"

Bran: “Did Jim find the Three Eyed Raven?

Mokuba

2ndcoming wrote: »

I read he only brought her back because he felt too attached to the Catelyn character and worried he had gotten rid of too many others in a storm of swords, and also wanted one more wow moment in the epilogue.

The Frey pie fell to Wyman Manderly and The North Remembers conspiracy in the books, Lady Stoneheart's only involvement of note I can remember since ASOS is Brienne's last chapter to date, which never happened in the show anyway.

The books and show are now so wildly different they're basically different stories, there's not much point comparing them directly imo

The Merrett Frey bit is supposed to highlight that not every was directly implicated and that not all Frey's are pure evil. LSH didn't discriminate though, just as Arya didn't.

2ndcoming

Mokuba wrote: »

GRRM wrote Stoneheart avenging the Red Wedding in the books to show you the ugly face of revenge, a soulless killing machine indistinguishable from the crimes committed against the Starks.

In the show they gave Arya her storyline, had her massacre a family and all it's relatives and acted as if it was a great moment.

Arya's storyline and characterisation in the show is horrendously bad.

I read he only brought her back because he felt too attached to the Catelyn character and worried he had gotten rid of too many others in a storm of swords, and also wanted one more wow moment in the epilogue.

The Frey pie fell to Wyman Manderly and The North Remembers conspiracy in the books, Lady Stoneheart's only involvement of note I can remember since ASOS is Brienne's last chapter to date, which never happened in the show anyway.

The books and show are now so wildly different they're basically different stories, there's not much point comparing them directly imo

Mokuba

GRRM wrote Stoneheart avenging the Red Wedding in the books to show you the ugly face of revenge, a soulless killing machine indistinguishable from the crimes committed against the Starks.

In the show they gave Arya her storyline, had her massacre a family and all it's relatives and acted as if it was a great moment.

Arya's storyline and characterisation in the show is horrendously bad.

no.8

LastLagoon wrote:

Yeah not great. What was the point of building up The NK and white walkers for all those years for it to be ended like that by a character who has had nothing to do with the NK story all these years? (A character who had one of the worst major character arcs -Braavos /faceless men) I see they did throw in some lame foreshadowing last season to make themselves look clever but really it was a letdown story wise. Itâ€™s like Star Wars/a marvel movie now , ridiculous plot armor on the characters the masses love , Dondarrion and the night watch lad are not major characters to kill off , neither were the 2 Mormonts or Theon either tbh.

LastLagoon wrote:

this is not the Game of Thrones that dragged me in years ago

Nonsense. You don't like Arya... Its clear from GoT threads. So many do however and I've personally found her journey to be over of the more interesting of the lot. She is of house Stark after all.
I am surprised Brien survived, as a few others (thought Sam would definitely bite the bullet)

BoJack Horseman

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So is it comfirmed the NK was Targaryen ? Hence why he didnt burn ?
Also did Jons Dragon die or just get hurt ?

He's far older than the Targaryns

Jon's dragon is fine.

joe40

I was half expecting a wee cameo from Sean Bean lurching around the crypt. I suppose he was beheaded so that may have been a problem.
Overall very heavy on the action got a bit tedious.
It was a pity that Arya's role was basically told in advance, it was totally expected when it came.

The Hound Gone Wild

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So is it comfirmed the NK was Targaryen ? Hence why he didnt burn ?
Also did Jons Dragon die or just get hurt ?

Nah, Targaryens were still sheep farmers when the Night King was created.

Looked like just an injury.

Gbear

I get that this was supposed to be grim and oppressive, but it was honestly horrific to look at. The colour or the lighting or something was just not right at all.

I saw this on the subreddit comparing this and the Battle of Helms Deep.

Of course, the tone that LOTR goes for isn't the same. LOTR is a fairy tale. But there's something to be said for it not feeling like someone has rubbed a load of dirt on your eyeballs.

On the whole double bluffing thing about this episode and Bran being the bad guy or whatever, I was caught out last season when I assumed they were too dumb to have written the "catching out" of Littlefinger (which was rubbish anyway, but in a different way), so never say never, but trying to cram it into the last 3 episodes of an 8-season arc would be atrocious writing in its own right.

There is not, IMO, time to do anything with much subtlety. We'll get a recap and a buildup to some big fight with Cersei, we'll probably get some kind of battle, and then we'll have some dramatic finale before everything is wrapped up. But with the players we have, it'll have to be extremely straightforward to make a jot of sense. Trying to cram in an explanation of all the supernatural stuff and tying it into the stories of the rest of the characters, and doing that without utterly trivialising the story in King's Landing is not possible IMO.

fitz

Tazzimus wrote: »

Where's that from?
I've read them twice and don't remember that part.

It's one of the implied theories... That he was on the sh*tter when Tyrion crossbows him cause he wasn't well, from being poisoned. The unusually rancid smell as he decomposed in the sept is seen as further hints toward the fact that wasn't long for the world one way or another.

Tazzimus

RobbingBandit wrote: »

even Tywin being poisoned.

Where's that from?
I've read them twice and don't remember that part.

RobbingBandit

Books have way more content than the show the greyjoys, dornish master plan, lady stone heart even Tywin being poisoned amongst others all still in play the show went its own way with the source material I'm sure George RR Martin is still cooking up something good for the conclusion of the books hopefully Winds of Winter at least will get published.

yourdeadwright

So is it comfirmed the NK was Targaryen ? Hence why he didnt burn ?
Also did Jons Dragon die or just get hurt ?

Gbear

The show has been all style and no substance for about 4 years, or basically since they've started to significantly diverge from the books, so I can't say I'm surprised, although the last couple of episodes had given me a false sense of hope that there was some kind of plan.

I wouldn't really mind, but in likelihood, this is the definitive ending of the series. George ain't finishing it.

RobbingBandit

Night King face to face with Bran very similar features this ain't over not by a long shot

Tazzimus

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

Really wanted Bran to address the Night King by his original human name during the stare off.

Bran: "Hello Jim"

Arya pauses mid jump.
"Jim?"