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That Newgrange Issue

slowburner

In recent years, there has been intense debate over specific structural details in the reconstruction of the passage tomb of Newgrange.

One headline in the Irish Times (21 December 2016) sums up the claims:

Trapping the winter solstice sun at Newgrange in Co Meath is not a 5,000-year-old phenomenon, but a 50-year-old “construct”, according to a former State archaeologist.

For an excellent and detailed rebuttal of the campaign against O'Kelly's findings, read this article by Ken Williams:
http://boynevalleytombs.wordpress.com/2019/04/14/re-discovering-the-lost-records-of-the-newgrange-roof-box/?fbclid=IwAR0bkcc5IFg5DnW5tAfQ2OJDSRf9Cpfcjbmv3Rl_Fk66qEzzMI3U9PQBjDk

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Markcheese

If the "original " records (last hundred years or so) and dig findings are pretty good,.
Then it's all just a matter of interpretation and opinion, and even a bit of controversy helps with interest in an amazing site, if the "light box" , or the white quartz rocks or positioning of some stones turns out to be questionable, Meh.... Its ignited debate, and brought about theories and research...

Wibbs

I've zero issue with the roof box myself. While it's a feature unique to Newgrange astronomical alignments especially to the solstices are not unique in structures of the period, to the degree they're almost a given part of the plans. It also makes no sense as some kinda second entrance or any of that.

The only issue I'd have with the Newgrange construction is the vertical facade of quartz. It's seriously unlikely that's how the structure once looked when new. They were experts in drystone construction and would know such a structure wouldn't be self supporting. I'm not so sure about the reconstruction of Knowth(IIRC?) where the researchers laid out the white quartz around the entrance like some sort of Neolithic decking. 1) they'd become filthy in no time and the point of collecting them seems to be for their whiteness 2) try walking on them in moccasin type shoes. Do yer ankle in.

My personal flight of fancy would come from where the stones are found and old pics of Newgrange. You'll note animal and human tracks make their way up either side of the entrance as that's a natural route to take. What clicked for me was my garden of all things. There's a steep slope at one end of it and many years ago someone had hauled a load of decorative stones up it to make a big rockery type feature. Over the years - and we're talking of 40 odd, so not long - almost all of the stones have rolled down to the bottom and particularly either side of where there's a track where people and animals walked.

So my "reconstruction" would have the whole mound covered with a thin layer of these white stones. Taking the flight of fancy further, maybe representing the Moon on the ground. The Sunrise gets the attention, but the Moon is often left out of discussions of this period, but it features strongly in later cultures who wrote stuff down or were observed by folks who wrote stuff down. It's very much associated with female fertility(menses being of a similar length cycle as the Moon's waxing and waning) and it marks out lunar months. Once in a while on the regular (every 15 years or something like that?) before the sun rises in Newgrange at the solstice the full Moon precedes it. They would have well noticed that. Some have suggested some of the carvings particularly at Knowth may be representations of the Moon. I also seem to recall that either Knowth or Dowth may have more allignements with the Moon. Look at the later Nebra sky disk from the Bronze Age.

nebra-sky-disk-2%25255B6%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800

nebra-sky-disk-2%25255B6%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800

It's Moon focused.

So in my fevered imagination the tombs might be representations of the Moon on the ground. Domed circular structures covered in bright white like a full Moon, "penetrated" by the Sun once a year bringing fertility to the lands and people and marking time and once a generation both flood the inner sanctum with light. Now imagine coming down the Boyne on a boat or approaching from the land and seeing these white domed structures in the sunlight.

Sure I might be accused of smoking the oul Turkish woodbines,

but it's as likely a theory as any.

slowburner

I wonder if it was difficult to keep the auld ritual Woodbines dry as they paddled up the Boyne.

Wibbs

Where there's a will there's a way...

rasta-life-rastaman-and-spliff-in-boat-Download-Royalty-free-Vector-File-EPS-277311.jpg

Joekers

Wibbs wrote: »

I've zero issue with the roof box myself. While it's a feature unique to Newgrange astronomical alignments especially to the solstices are not unique in structures of the period, to the degree they're almost a given part of the plans. It also makes no sense as some kinda second entrance or any of that.

The only issue I'd have with the Newgrange construction is the vertical facade of quartz. It's seriously unlikely that's how the structure once looked when new. They were experts in drystone construction and would know such a structure wouldn't be self supporting. I'm not so sure about the reconstruction of Knowth(IIRC?) where the researchers laid out the white quartz around the entrance like some sort of Neolithic decking. 1) they'd become filthy in no time and the point of collecting them seems to be for their whiteness 2) try walking on them in moccasin type shoes. Do yer ankle in.

My personal flight of fancy would come from where the stones are found and old pics of Newgrange. You'll note animal and human tracks make their way up either side of the entrance as that's a natural route to take. What clicked for me was my garden of all things. There's a steep slope at one end of it and many years ago someone had hauled a load of decorative stones up it to make a big rockery type feature. Over the years - and we're talking of 40 odd, so not long - almost all of the stones have rolled down to the bottom and particularly either side of where there's a track where people and animals walked.

So my "reconstruction" would have the whole mound covered with a thin layer of these white stones. Taking the flight of fancy further, maybe representing the Moon on the ground. The Sunrise gets the attention, but the Moon is often left out of discussions of this period, but it features strongly in later cultures who wrote stuff down or were observed by folks who wrote stuff down. It's very much associated with female fertility(menses being of a similar length cycle as the Moon's waxing and waning) and it marks out lunar months. Once in a while on the regular (every 15 years or something like that?) before the sun rises in Newgrange at the solstice the full Moon precedes it. They would have well noticed that. Some have suggested some of the carvings particularly at Knowth may be representations of the Moon. I also seem to recall that either Knowth or Dowth may have more allignements with the Moon. Look at the later Nebra sky disk from the Bronze Age.

It's Moon focused.

So in my fevered imagination the tombs might be representations of the Moon on the ground. Domed circular structures covered in bright white like a full Moon, "penetrated" by the Sun once a year bringing fertility to the lands and people and marking time and once a generation both flood the inner sanctum with light. Now imagine coming down the Boyne on a boat or approaching from the land and seeing these white domed structures in the sunlight.

Sure I might be accused of smoking the oul Turkish woodbines, but it's as likely a theory as any.

What about the roofbox on the Cairn in Carrowkeel ?

Wibbs

Doh! True J, I'd forgotten about that one.

pueblo

slowburner wrote: »

In recent years, there has been intense debate over specific structural details in the reconstruction of the passage tomb of Newgrange.

One headline in the Irish Times (21 December 2016) sums up the claims:

For an excellent and detailed rebuttal of the campaign against O'Kelly's findings, read this article by Ken Williams:
http://boynevalleytombs.wordpress.com/2019/04/14/re-discovering-the-lost-records-of-the-newgrange-roof-box/?fbclid=IwAR0bkcc5IFg5DnW5tAfQ2OJDSRf9Cpfcjbmv3Rl_Fk66qEzzMI3U9PQBjDk

Fascinating article, thanks.

pueblo

What possible explanations are there for the discrepancy in quality between the carvings on the quartz block (found in the roof box )and the other carved slabs, with the quartz block displaying superior craftsmanship compared with the other slabs?

Also, any ideas what purpose/significance it's placement (positioned lengthwise along the back edge of roofslab 1) have?

deleted

Does quartz = limestone?
https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/world-cultures/ancient-egyptian-collection/ancient-egyptian-collection/pyramid-casing-stone/

AngryHippie

Limestone can contain some quartz.

By definition, quartz is a mineral in and of itself.
Slate, shale, sandstone etc. can all contain quartz.

deleted

My q. was about usage on buildings : white Newgrange resembles white pyramids.

( Off topic , but flint is interesting. "The exact mode of formation of flint is not yet clear, but it is thought that it occurs as a result of chemical changes in compressed sedimentary rock formations, during the process of diagenesis. One hypothesis is that a gelatinous material fills cavities in the sediment, such as holes bored by crustaceans or molluscs and that this becomes silicified. This hypothesis certainly explains the complex shapes of flint nodules that are found. The source of dissolved silica in the porous media could be the spicules of silicious sponges. Certain types of flint, such as that from the south coast of England, contain trapped fossilised marine flora.").

back to topic.