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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

EoinMcLovin

Releases on April 26th 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA6hldpSTF8

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Foxtrol

titan18 wrote: »

Yup. Can bring Hawkeye and Fury in it. Set it late 90s, early 2000s or something

Feel they could span a longer period of time, show more of her childhood etc and lead up to whatever situation with Barton/Fury/SHIELD. Given we know them they could be introduced late in the movie or her adversaries.

titan18

khaldrogo wrote:

I'd have more interest in a Ronin movie than a Hawkeye movie. He was calling his daughter Hawkeye in one scene. Could be setting up something there?

I was fair disappointed he wasn't called Ronin once in this

khaldrogo

Gardiner 2001 wrote:

Makes sense. Another way to have Hawkeye in it as well as he wouldn't be one of the stronger characters in my opinion

I'd have more interest in a Ronin movie than a Hawkeye movie. He was calling his daughter Hawkeye in one scene. Could be setting up something there?

titan18

Gardiner 2001 wrote:

Makes sense. Another way to have Hawkeye in it as well as he wouldn't be one of the stronger characters in my opinion

Yup. Can bring Hawkeye and Fury in it. Set it late 90s, early 2000s or something

Gardiner 2001

titan18 wrote: »

That's got to be a prequel. Probably how she meets Hawkeye or joins SHIELD would be likeliest imo

Makes sense. Another way to have Hawkeye in it as well as he wouldn't be one of the stronger characters in my opinion

khaldrogo

Don't think I've ever left a cinema thinking I need to watch the film again, soon. Just from a stand point that there was so much in it. Did not feel like 3hrs at all.

Gardiner 2001

Foxtrol wrote: »

I always expected/hoped it to be a prequel/origin story. They've regularly teased her early years, right up to why she owed Barton, and I think it is the most interesting direction to go with it.

Post Thanos, I don't see how she'd end up off by herself in an interesting story.

Was thinking that myself you just never know with the way they are thinking but your probably right with an origin story until it makes a billion and there like hmmmm maybe she did somehow survive....

titan18

Gardiner 2001 wrote:

Very good film. Just wondering nw was it all talk of a new black widow film just to throw us off the scent what happens in this film or will that be somehow still getting made?

That's got to be a prequel. Probably how she meets Hawkeye or joins SHIELD would be likeliest imo

khaldrogo

Well, that was emotional!!!

Foxtrol

Gardiner 2001 wrote: »

Very good film. Just wondering nw was it all talk of a new black widow film just to throw us off the scent what happens in this film or will that be somehow still getting made?

I always expected/hoped it to be a prequel/origin story. They've regularly teased her early years, right up to why she owed Barton, and I think it is the most interesting direction to go with it.

Post Thanos, I don't see how she'd end up off by herself in an interesting story.

Gardiner 2001

Very good film. Just wondering nw was it all talk of a new black widow film just to throw us off the scent what happens in this film or will that be somehow still getting made?

Foxtrol

For me, that movie was a fantastic achievement. Sure there were some flaws, but I can’t believe they did such a satisfying job tying up the 21 previous movies. Really looking forward to a second or more viewings to get my head fully around it. I watched it in a giant 600 seater IMAX and with the size of the screen I feel I missed things, especially in the final fight.

Can understand some who thought there was too much humour but I felt they balanced out well enough, with most being grim enough and this providing a nice respite.

Think it says a lot that the most consistent complaint raised here appears to be a 10 second shot of female characters, albeit one that could have been done more subtly.

Ethereal Cereal

titan18 wrote: »

I was a bit disappointed by it tbh. It's not a bad film, but it's weaker than IW, and a good bit more than some or the stronger individual films.

I don't think they show the devastation well, and cos of the decision with time travel and leaving the 5 years, there's plot holes all over the place. Few eye rolling moments too (that stupid girl power shot and Thor's beer belly) that really don't work imo.

Yea, this is kind of how I felt. They never properly acknowledged the millions of human lives that were lost regardless of whether the snap was reversed or not. Thor's beerbelly was played for laughs, rather than expanding on the broken man we saw at the start of the movie with severe survivors guilt.

The whole movie seemed really comedic, which lessened done if the tension and peril for me.

titan18

I was a bit disappointed by it tbh. It's not a bad film, but it's weaker than IW, and a good bit more than some or the stronger individual films.

I don't think they show the devastation well, and cos of the decision with time travel and leaving the 5 years, there's plot holes all over the place. Few eye rolling moments too (that stupid girl power shot and Thor's beer belly) that really don't work imo.

Mitch Connor

I didn't feel there was a problem with the physicality or fighting in Winger Soldier or civil war - i thought both were excellent for it. Both also Directed by the Russo's. Both high on the VFX count. The Civil War did struggle in the larger scenes in the airport for example (but Bucky's escape, fight vs Cross Bones, Cap and Buck vs Iron Man were very good imo)

As to why BP was a bit poor for it - maybe its because they are not supposed to move or behave like fully humans. They are supposed to have cat like qualities to their agility, speed, reactions, movement etc.

[Deleted User]

GavRedKing wrote: »

I didnt like Black Panther or Captain Marvel, I think they were average enough origin stories that were pandering and some people were afraid to criticise at the time, in saying that, both were better than Ant Man & the Wasp and Dr. Strange, IMO.

Ya know the worst thing? I love both Characters, just not the MCU versions (although Panther is loosening up a bit and growing on me)

micks_address

kerplun k wrote: »

Loved the film, I won’t do the normal review thingy as I generally agree with most of the stuff already said on here, but one thing I kind of want to talk about is my growing itch I have with the MCU formula. It probably sounds like I'm sh1tting all over this, but honestly I'm not, I love these films, but like some others have said, I'm not sure I even want to continue the journey after this.

I find when I’m watching the latest marvel movies I keep thinking about a Tim Burton movie I saw called Big Eyes, if you haven’t seen it, it’s essentially a movie about an artist that paints her different subjects in a similar style, the artist is Margaret Keane, Google her images and you'll see what I mean, the paintings are all variations of things using the same style, anyhews, about halfway through the movie her paintings reaches the height of their fame and Keane is tasked with painting a piece called Tomorrow Forever, and again she uses the same style and technique to produce her biggest and best work, which is basically the same thing she normally does but more of it, squeezed into this one huge painting displaying all her work. And that’s how I about the VFX in Infinity War and Endgame, its Marvels version of Tomorrow Forever.

These are the most "MCU" films yet, what I mean by that is that they use the same generic VFX, but more of it, and like Margaret Keane, the art is perfectly fine, but its the same dam thing, just more of it.

The MCU seem to be relying more and more on VFX, Maybe because its cheaper and less time-consuming, it’s probably more convenient to use VFX to make changes in post-production than to do reshoots, I dunno. Let’s look at some of the VFX counts from some of the moves, Information was sourced from upcomingvfxmovies.com

phase 1,
Film, VFX
The Avengers, 2200
Thor, 1309
Iron Man 2, 1000
Iron Man, 800

Now let’s look at the VFX counts from some of the films post phase 1

phase 2 and 3
Film, VFX
Avengers: Infinity War, 2680
Black Panther, 2456
GOTG V2, 2300
Civil War, 3000
Doctor Strange, 1450
Avengers: Age of Ultron, 3000
Guardians of the Galaxy, 2750
Winter Soldier, 2500
Iron Man 3, 2000

I think it’s fair to say from this that VFX within the MCU has seen a large spike.
Why do I have a problem with this... It’s simple, The MCU hands off the VFX in their movies to a special effects team which gives a director less input on the finished product.

As the movies become more dependent on special effects, the room for creativity is diminished at least in terms of the visuals.
As the VFX become more prevalent, it now seems like the VFX artists are directing these movies, leaving the actual director with less of a chance to put their own stamp it.
When these films do shine, it’s through the dialogue and character moments, this is where the directors can actually put their own spin on things.

This can be highlighted with two films from Directed by Ryan Coogler. Creed and Black Panther.

Let’s first look at the big fight scene from Black Panther, look at the CGI, look at the character movements, and look at the ever increasing ignorance for the basic laws of physics

After watching this, many accused Coogler of being inexperienced in doing actions scenes, but my argument against this was his work on Creed.

Let’s look at one of my favourite shots from this film

Now, tell me this man doesn’t know how to direct an action scene.

so again, what’s the problem with BP? why is the action scenes so bland and generic, especially when you compare it to some of his work on Creed, If you ask me, I think the answer is that Coogler hasn’t got much say on the action in BP.

When discussing the visuals of MCU films these same type of accusations are leveled at the Russo brothers and again I would argue that this is not their fault, Its the ever increasing influence of Feiges insistence that the visuals are outsourced to the SFX team.

Take a look at this article from screenrant.[/URL] Marvel even has a crash course for new indie directors that come in to direct their movies.

Normally when we go see these type of action moves, we tolerate things like a lose plot or one dimensional characters because we get rewarded with the big action pieces, but with the MCU, things have been turned on its head a little, the big action scenes come secondary to the characters, we almost tolerate the SFX because we love the characters and relationships between those characters. The highlights are the dialogues and moments between these characters.
When people talk about their favorite parts of IW, it’s the Stark/Parker relationship, or Thor/GOTG bits, the jokes, etc., not one person came to be and said "I loved the bit when Thanos threw that moon at Stark".

The MCU has got away the dodgy VFX for so long now because we've had 9 years of character development, the ground work was done in phase 1 without a ton of green screen, heck even, and the main event of phase 1, The Avengers had less VFX than most of the films in phase 2 and 3.

I think this poses is a huge problem for the MCU, because if this is the end, and they plan to start a new chapter, they won't have the luxury of build up from previous moves that laid the ground work.

Look at a side by side from the original Iron Man and endgame.

Look at the original Iron Man trailer

Look at the movements, the suit, look how real it looks, and then compare this to some of the scenes in Captain Marvel, BP IW and Endgame and tell me this isn't a problem.

Now, in saying all of that, I get that IW and Endgame are Marvels Tomorrow Forever, it needs to be big, the people demand it, its the season final after all, however, If this really is the end like Marvel are claiming, they should go all in, and do the same with the VFX process.

I say start again, start small, hire creatives like they did in phase 1 and let them actually direct their own actions sequences, give them full creative control, and let them establish their own unique style, because if the MCU really is serious about starting over, and you take a movie like Shang-Chi, and you try pull this generic gravity defying, rubbery movement, laser bean shooting up into the sky crap, no one will care.

I think going forward, if the MCU want to remain relevant, they really do need to start over and take a chance and trust the creative process rather than special effects.

I think it's fair to say once they hit space and guardians etc the vfx was always going to go through the roof. I don't disagree re the fight scenes some looked like computer game sequences but there's fantastical stuff going on that I don't think would be very easy to re create in the real world

kerplun k

Loved the film, I won’t do the normal review thingy as I generally agree with most of the stuff already said on here, but one thing I kind of want to talk about is my growing itch I have with the MCU formula. It probably sounds like I'm sh1tting all over this, but honestly I'm not, I love these films, but like some others have said, I'm not sure I even want to continue the journey after this.

I find when I’m watching the latest marvel movies I keep thinking about a Tim Burton movie I saw called Big Eyes, if you haven’t seen it, it’s essentially a movie about an artist that paints her different subjects in a similar style, the artist is Margaret Keane, Google her images and you'll see what I mean, the paintings are all variations of things using the same style, anyhews, about halfway through the movie her paintings reaches the height of their fame and Keane is tasked with painting a piece called Tomorrow Forever, and again she uses the same style and technique to produce her biggest and best work, which is basically the same thing she normally does but more of it, squeezed into this one huge painting displaying all her work. And that’s how I feel about the VFX in Infinity War and Endgame, its Marvels version of Tomorrow Forever.

These are the most "MCU" films yet, what I mean by that is that they use the same generic VFX, but more of it, and like Margaret Keane, the art is perfectly fine, but its the same dam thing, just more of it.

The MCU seem to be relying more and more on VFX, Maybe because its cheaper and less time-consuming, it’s probably more convenient to use VFX to make changes in post-production than to do reshoots, I dunno. Let’s look at some of the VFX counts from some of the moves, Information was sourced from upcomingvfxmovies.com

phase 1,
Film, VFX
The Avengers, 2200
Thor, 1309
Iron Man 2, 1000
Iron Man, 800

Now let’s look at the VFX counts from some of the films post phase 1

phase 2 and 3
Film, VFX
Avengers: Infinity War, 2680
Black Panther, 2456
GOTG V2, 2300
Civil War, 3000
Doctor Strange, 1450
Avengers: Age of Ultron, 3000
Guardians of the Galaxy, 2750
Winter Soldier, 2500
Iron Man 3, 2000

I think it’s fair to say from this that VFX within the MCU has seen a large spike.
Why do I have a problem with this... It’s simple, The MCU hands off the VFX in their movies to a special effects team which gives a director less input on the finished product.

As these movies become more dependent on special effects, the room for creativity is diminished at least in terms of the visuals.
As the VFX become more prevalent, it now seems like the VFX artists are directing these movies, leaving the actual director with less of a chance to put their own stamp on it.
When these films do shine, it’s through the dialogue and character moments, this is where the directors can actually put their own spin on things.

This can be highlighted with two films Directed by Ryan Coogler. Creed and Black Panther.

Let’s first look at the big fight scene from Black Panther, look at the CGI, look at the character movements, and look at the ever increasing ignorance for the basic laws of physics

After watching this, many accused Coogler of being inexperienced in doing actions scenes, but my argument against this was his work on Creed.

Let’s look at one of my favourite shots from this film

Now, tell me this man doesn’t know how to direct an action scene.

so again, what’s the problem with BP? why is the action scenes so bland and generic, especially when you compare it to some of his work on Creed, If you ask me, I think the answer is that Coogler hasn’t got much of a say on the action in BP.

When discussing the visuals of MCU films these same type of accusations are leveled at the Russo brothers and again I would argue that this is not their fault, Its the ever increasing influence of Feiges insistence that the visuals are outsourced to the SFX team.

Take a look at this article from screenrant. Marvel even has a crash course for new indie directors that come in to direct their movies.

Normally when we go see these type of action moves, we tolerate things like a lose plot or one dimensional characters because we get rewarded with the big action pieces, but with the MCU, things have been turned on its head a little, the big action scenes come secondary to the characters, we almost tolerate the SFX because we love the characters and relationships between those characters. The highlights are the dialogues and moments between these characters.
When people talk about their favorite parts of IW, it’s the Stark/Parker relationship, or Thor/GOTG bits, the jokes, etc., not one person came to me and said "I loved the bit when Thanos threw that moon at Stark".

The MCU has got away the dodgy VFX for so long now because we've had 9 years of character development, the ground work was done in phase 1 without a ton of green screen, heck, even the main event of phase 1, The Avengers had less VFX than most of the films in phase 2 and 3.

I think this poses a huge problem for the MCU, because if this is the end, and they plan to start a new chapter, they won't have the luxury of build up from previous moves that laid the ground work.

Look at a side by side from the original Iron Man and endgame.

Look at the original Iron Man trailer

Look at the movements, the suit, look how real it looks, and then compare this to some of the scenes in Captain Marvel, BP IW and Endgame and tell me this isn't a problem.

Now, in saying all of that, I get that IW and Endgame is Marvels Tomorrow Forever, it needs to be big, the people demand it, its the season final after all, however, If this really is the end like Marvel are claiming, they should go all in, and do the same with the VFX process.

I say start again, start small, hire creatives like they did in phase 1 and let them actually direct their own action sequences, give them full creative control, and let them establish their own unique style, because if the MCU really is serious about starting over, and you take a movie like Shang-Chi, and you try pull this generic gravity defying, rubbery movement, laser beam shooting up into the sky crap, no one will care.

I think going forward, if the MCU want to remain relevant, they really do need to start over and take a chance and trust the creative process rather than special effects.

pxdf9i5cmoavkz

GavRedKing wrote: »

If the Ancient One has the Time Stone during the NY attack and is protecting the sanctum, why didnt she help the Avengers?

The Ancient One wrote:

The Avengers protect the world from physical dangers. We safeguard it against more mystical threats.

Yes, I know, it's not an excuse but there you have it.

That being said, I'm pretty sure I saw her doing a little bit of work on the top of the roof. She was doing her finger wavey thing and cutting a couple of the riders in half or am I imagining it?

GavRedKing

I know they can time travel but to keep things some what sane, I can imagine they'll either be parking the idea in future films and specifically mentioning this (not messing with the past anymore) or they'll have their tech destroyed with no way of re-building it.

It only works partly due to Pym so if they killed him off they could in theory end time travel if they had no particles left.

NuMarvel

The White Wolf wrote: »

There'll be more Iron Man films just not featuring RDJ. Katherine Langford of 13 Reasons Why fame filmed scenes that didn't make the final cut; if I had to guess she played a future Morgan who will probably end up being Iron Heart.

And now that the Avengers have access to time travel, they can just copy The Crossing storyline from the comics and bring back a teenaged Tony Stark who goes on to be come Iron Man. (Before he's retconned back into being an adult and nobody ever mentions it again.)

The White Wolf

Drumpot wrote: »

Some guy and his young son just walked past me on the street in swords. All I Hard was , “so there can’t be any more iron man movies!”.

That’s why , if it matters to you, you goto these sort of movies on open day. Thank god it didn’t matter to me!!!

Shows are selling out everythere, I was thinking of going to it again but it’s just cleaning up!!!!

There'll be more Iron Man films just not featuring RDJ. Katherine Langford of 13 Reasons Why fame filmed scenes that didn't make the final cut; if I had to guess she played a future Morgan who will probably end up being Iron Heart.

GavRedKing

Drumpot wrote: »

Some guy and his young son just walked past me on the street in swords. All I Hard was , “so there can’t be any more iron man movies!”.

That’s why , if it matters to you, you goto these sort of movies on open day. Thank god it didn’t matter to me!!!

Shows are selling out everythere, I was thinking of going to it again but it’s just cleaning up!!!!

There was a lot of people spilling out of the earlier film as we were queuing up to get popcorn and drinks for our showing and they were talking about the film. I didnt over hear anything as I was talking to herself but if I had, I would have been seriously pi**ed off having survived for so long.

GavRedKing

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I had the exact same thoughts, the Ancient One is selfish so and the stone is everything to her so her priority was on that.

I asked the exact same thing about returning the soul stone.

I get that, Strange himself said the same on the way to Titan, as a stone keeper it was his only job to protect it at all costs.

The ancient one only gave Banner the stone when he told her that Strange gave it up to Thanos and she was trusting future Stranges judgement as he was the best of them.

But she could have helped out a little, she was sitting on her rooftop watching the world burn, Dr. Strange is now charged with protecting the earth from exactly the type of attack that would have happened during the first invasion so the Ancient Ones placing in NY at the time of the attack and her only looking for the soul stone was a but of a cop out.

I think those kind of explanations could have been handled a bit better.

Thats just nit picking though, it was enjoyable enough romp and end to what was a mad decade of films and stories that roughly chopped together to bring us to Endgame.

Drumpot

Some guy and his young son just walked past me on the street in swords. All I Hard was , “so there can’t be any more iron man movies!”.

That’s why , if it matters to you, you goto these sort of movies on open day. Thank god it didn’t matter to me!!!

Shows are selling out everythere, I was thinking of going to it again but it’s just cleaning up!!!!

GavRedKing

I didnt like Black Panther or Captain Marvel, I think they were average enough origin stories that were pandering and some people were afraid to criticise at the time, in saying that, both were better than Ant Man & the Wasp and Dr. Strange, IMO.

Triceratops Ballet

Midnight_EG wrote: »

If that scene makes my daughter/niece/missus feel in any way empowered and want to enjoy and love what I do most (movie-wise) well then I'm all for it. It was 15 seconds, it affected nobody personally and if it did then I'd consider carefully looking at yourself and wondering why you're offended at 10 women in the biggest movie ever made

I'm all for the empowerment of women, but marvel would have served its self and female empowerment better if they'd gotten the finger out years ago and had a female driven movie, or not fridged their female avenger for feckin Hawkeye!!
They managed a balanced empowering movie in Black Panther that didn't look like pandering to women, so they're capable of it, they just don't seem to care and thought a token gesture was enough!

RickBlaine

I saw this on Twitter. I thought it was pretty poignant:

D5EP9f9UEAA-54Y.jpg:large

Chris_Heilong

GavRedKing wrote: »

If the Ancient One has the Time Stone during the NY attack and is protecting the sanctum, why didnt she help the Avengers?

Time travel is great and all but it throws up too many questions and plot holes from previous films and events.

Cap was tasked with returning the Stones to a time I'm assuming immediately after they were taken to reverse the snap which opens up a whole load of questions, how do you return the soul stone and does it bring Nath back, also meeting Red Skull again must have been great fun for Cap.

He has to go back to a military base under lock down to return the tesseract to a highly secure area where they were looking for a person matching his description.

Quill is K/O'd so does Cap just tuck the Power Stone into his pocket etc etc

Or have I this all screwed up, I fear I do....bloody mad time travel. :pac:

I had the exact same thoughts, the Ancient One is selfish so and the stone is everything to her so her priority was on that.

I asked the exact same thing about returning the soul stone.

GavRedKing

mloc123 wrote: »

Lots of differing views on how time travel should work etc..

But I assume everyone is on the same page about "that scene" with the ridiculously shoehorned girl power shot? I cringed so hard.

Ya, I even turned and left out a slightly audible "bollocks" to the fiancee and the guy next to her smiled and chuckled.

It was worth of an eye roll it was so hammed up and forced into shot, it was totally out of context with what was happening too at the time. As people have said earlier, there was no way they would have all lined up for an assault on Thanos and his army as barely any of them had any interaction with the other group.