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Thoughts on Moving Abroad - Possibly Canada

red petal

*If this is the wrong place for this thread, please let me know.

I'm 31 with a 5yr old and a partner. I work full time and my partner is self employed. We have been renting for the last 9yrs - on a decent rent so that's not an issue. Our landlord has no plans to sell anytime soon and will not screw us over by selling up at a minutes notice- We're very lucky!

The thing is, we don't see ourselves buying in Ireland anytime soon. The houses are way overpriced and we enjoy life's little luxuries that would become less attainable if we commit to a mortgage. I would love to own my own house for the stability but my partner is not fussed. He would much rather build his own, but buying land and that option is not within reach anytime soon.

Besides this, I am increasingly worried about the state of our country and the corrupt politicians and have no desire to spend my life frustrated and angry with the poor decisions the government make.

I have toyed with the idea of emigrating to Canada. The quality of life appears to be so much better. Health and childcare perks etc. I have 2 family members there at the moment so they have told me this- although I am still skeptical unless I see for myself.

I work for a global company that I am hoping would assist us if we did decide to go. But it would be a massive decision as we would be uprooting my child from school, possibly loosing our great renting situation if it didn't work out and my partner possibly not getting work or not enjoying working for a company.

Has anyone else had any experience of moving abroad or had a similar situation and is there a lot more to think about? Am I silly for even considering it?

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red petal

mariaalice wrote: »

Also living in a new country without the support networks you have here with a partner who prefers to spend money on life luxuries rather than a secure futuer for their family is something to consider.

Myself and my partner have been together 10 years. Our objectives are the same and there is nothing to say that buying a house in Ireland secures a future for your family. You'd be up **** creek without a paddle if you had a mortgage here and got sick and couldn't work as you mentioned. So your scenario of the same happening abroad doesn't make much difference, only you could quite possibly be cared for health wise in another country.

kg703

red petal wrote: »

Myself and my partner have been together 10 years. Our objectives are the same and there is nothing to say that buying a house in Ireland secures a future for your family. You'd be up **** creek without a paddle if you had a mortgage here and got sick and couldn't work as you mentioned. So your scenario of the same happening abroad doesn't make much difference, only you could quite possibly be cared for health wise in another country.

Healthcare seems to be your sticking point, make sure it’s as free as you think before you go, I know citizens are covered but even they can lose their free healthcare if they leave for too long.

Mad_maxx

circadian wrote: »

Lived in Canada for years. If you can get sponsored or residency you're flying. Quality of life in the cities is excellent and somewhere I'd be more than happy raising children.

Buying property, however, is just as expensive if not moreso than Ireland. Unless you want to live somewhere like Edmonton or Winnipeg. I would suggest Victoria BC as the weather is decent, it's not too big, a lovely city and possibly property prices aren't as insane as the likes of Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal etc.

Are you referring to Victoria in vancouver Island?

I've relatives living in comox, birthplace of one Pamela Anderson

Mad_maxx

yagan wrote: »

You'll be in for a shock in New Zealand if you think Irish taxes are high.

Taxes in new Zealand are lower but wages are lower and property much more expensive if you compare both countries on a nationwide basis

Mad_maxx

red petal wrote: »

Myself and my partner have been together 10 years. Our objectives are the same and there is nothing to say that buying a house in Ireland secures a future for your family. You'd be up **** creek without a paddle if you had a mortgage here and got sick and couldn't work as you mentioned. So your scenario of the same happening abroad doesn't make much difference, only you could quite possibly be cared for health wise in another country.

Actually you are dead wrong about that, if you have a mortgage and fall on hard times, no country is better than Ireland, evictions are like hens teeth and sob stories are entertained like nowhere else

[Deleted User]

red petal wrote: »

Currently paying 800 for a 3 bed house. Landlord does not hassle us and often we pay a few months together. Sure, there are people paying around the same or less for a monthly mortgage but there's the need for approx €60k deposit for a decent house in a decent location and often €150k interest.

You're pulling numbers from all over the place.
€800 is amazingly little to pay for a 3 bed house.
€60k deposit would imply a €600k house if you're a first time buyer.
€150k interest would be on a ~€300k mortgage.

Forget about total interest, it's more down to what the repayments are because you either pay rent or a mortgage. Your current rent (which is tiny) would cover payments on a €200k mortgage.

yagan

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't think so.

VAT in Ireland is 23%, GST in NZ is 15% - so not only does Ireland tax indivudals more highly, it taxes more highly when it comes to consumption.

A lot of people are confused, as taxation is most often expressed as a percentage of GDP, which is great for economists but entirely misleading for individuals. Ireland looks great in terms of taxation as a percentage of GDP because the GDP is very high, due to large US based multinationals, like Apple, inflating and skewing the figures dramatically, while the corporate tax rate is very low, which means a greater proportion of Ireland's tax take is from individuals.

You need to calculate the non corporate tax burden per capita, in order to get a more relevant picture of the individual tax burden. Which for Ireland comes to roughly USD$2,000 per head higher than in NZ. I suspect the difference is actually greater than that but am still looking for figures for number of tax payers rather than raw total population.

It's not about GST versus VAT, it's about how much spending power you've got left in both countries and from personal experience from working in NZ you're still way ahead in Ireland. What's really baffling about NZ is how expensive it is outside of the cities, housing like in Canada is uniformly expensive in a south county dublin sense but right across the country.

And don't get me started on quality of living, damp houses are considered acceptable there. The only Kiwis who understood what they're missing with insulated housing are those who've lived in Ireland and elsewhere in northern Europe and America. Otherwise the attitude towards cold homes is still practically stuck in the victorian frontier mentality.

Mad_maxx

yagan wrote: »

It's not about GST versus VAT, it's about how much spending power you've got left in both countries and from personal experience from working in NZ you're still way ahead in Ireland. What's really baffling about NZ is how expensive it is outside of the cities, housing like in Canada is uniformly expensive in a south county dublin sense but right across the country.

And don't get me started on quality of living, damp houses are considered acceptable there. The only Kiwis who understood what they're missing with insulated housing are those who've lived in Ireland and elsewhere in northern Europe and America. Otherwise the attitude towards cold homes is still practically stuck in the victorian frontier mentality.

Kiwi construction standards make Irish builders look like scandanavians or germans

Then there is the famous kiwi attitude towards any sort of complaints, beit a house with mould everywhere or anything else

" stop whining"

Incredibly thin skinned people, cannot tolerate any form of criticism, worst country ever if you encounter either school bullying or the workplace kind, those in charge do not want to know on any level, biggest crime you can commit in the mind of a kiwi is to point out shortcomings

Smug deluded people

jester77

Do you have to go so far? Scandinavia, Switzerland and Germany would offer a better work life balance than Ireland, closer to home, no visa issues (for the EU countries), far superior health care and excellent systems that cater towards families.

enricoh

keano_afc wrote: »

I've 2 friends who made the move in the last 5 years. Both went to Winnipeg (we've got mutual friends there) and one ended up marrying a girl from Selkirk, the other was married to an Irish girl. They both have trades, so had no issue getting work. Both of them have absolutely no intention of ever coming back.

Since they moved their wives have had children in Canada, so the Irish couple shouldnt have any issues staying as long as they like.

Mate of mine did the same, moved with missus out 4or 5 years ago. Got sick of the winters where he was and came back a month ago. The nipper hadnt left the house for 3 months it was that cold. Sod that, that'd drive u bananas!

red petal

Deleted User wrote: »

You're pulling numbers from all over the place.
€800 is amazingly little to pay for a 3 bed house.
€60k deposit would imply a €600k house if you're a first time buyer.
€150k interest would be on a ~€300k mortgage.

Forget about total interest, it's more down to what the repayments are because you either pay rent or a mortgage. Your current rent (which is tiny) would cover payments on a €200k mortgage.

€300k mortgage is exactly what I'm basing it on. I would want a 20% deposit. Maybe you're not from Dublin, but I most certainly wouldn't get a house the same size as my current (very small 3 bed) for less than €300k.

€150k interest is not something to forget easily. Houses in Ireland, particularly Dublin are way overpriced. Paying €450k over time for what's sold as an already overpriced €300k house is not in my interests, regardless of monthly payments.

cnocbui

yagan wrote: »

It's not about GST versus VAT, it's about how much spending power you've got left in both countries and from personal experience from working in NZ you're still way ahead in Ireland. What's really baffling about NZ is how expensive it is outside of the cities, housing like in Canada is uniformly expensive in a south county dublin sense but right across the country.

And don't get me started on quality of living, damp houses are considered acceptable there. The only Kiwis who understood what they're missing with insulated housing are those who've lived in Ireland and elsewhere in northern Europe and America. Otherwise the attitude towards cold homes is still practically stuck in the victorian frontier mentality.

Just stop. Taxation was the criteria, not 'spending power' or damp houses or other such intangibles. Every individual has to look at the topic of emigration from their own particular circumstances and in terms of their own values and aspirations.

The tax burden on individuals is appreciably lower in NZ than in Ireland.

Just because the historical and general standard of housing in NZ is low, doesn't mean someone who appreciates that fact who moves there has to put up with it.

I lived in Australia for many years before moving to Ireland. How many Irish people even think to compute the cost of heating in a climate where the average annual temperature is only 10°C vs 20°C in, say, Sydney? That for me represents a cost of living burden almost as great as the tax burden difference.

RayCun

red petal wrote: »

€150k interest is not something to forget easily. Houses in Ireland, particularly Dublin are way overpriced. Paying €450k over time for what's sold as an already overpriced €300k house is not in my interests, regardless of monthly payments.

But you'd have no problem paying rent for the same period?

red petal

jester77 wrote: »

Do you have to go so far? Scandinavia, Switzerland and Germany would offer a better work life balance than Ireland, closer to home, no visa issues (for the EU countries), far superior health care and excellent systems that cater towards families.

Yes, i would consider them too. I figured a mainly English speaking country would be easier, but there are a few places I would strongly consider.

cnocbui

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Kiwi construction standards make Irish builders look like scandanavians or germans

Then there is the famous kiwi attitude towards any sort of complaints, beit a house with mould everywhere or anything else

" stop whining"

Incredibly thin skinned people, cannot tolerate any form of criticism, worst country ever if you encounter either school bullying or the workplace kind, those in charge do not want to know on any level, biggest crime you can commit in the mind of a kiwi is to point out shortcomings

Smug deluded people

You think Irish people can stand criticism of Ireland and are not thin skinned about it?

Every time someone on Boards talks of emigrating there is is fairly substantial number of people who don't take kindly to the implied national criticism.

I have now lived in Ireland for over 20 years and, to put it diplomatically, Kiwis wouldn't be the only people who would have those characteristics you refer to.

[Deleted User]

red petal wrote: »

€300k mortgage is exactly what I'm basing it on. I would want a 20% deposit. Maybe you're not from Dublin, but I most certainly wouldn't get a house the same size as my current (very small 3 bed) for less than €300k.

€150k interest is not something to forget easily. Houses in Ireland, particularly Dublin are way overpriced. Paying €450k over time for what's sold as an already overpriced €300k house is not in my interests, regardless of monthly payments.

You either have to pay rent or a mortgage. If principal + interest is less than rent then you can afford it.
I'm not from Dublin and would love to be able to rent a decent 3 bed house where I am for €800 a month.

cnocbui

red petal wrote: »

€300k mortgage is exactly what I'm basing it on. I would want a 20% deposit. Maybe you're not from Dublin, but I most certainly wouldn't get a house the same size as my current (very small 3 bed) for less than €300k.

€150k interest is not something to forget easily. Houses in Ireland, particularly Dublin are way overpriced. Paying €450k over time for what's sold as an already overpriced €300k house is not in my interests, regardless of monthly payments.

You have actually potentially dodged a bullet by renting. Ireland would be one of the very few countries in the OECD where a significant number of people would have found purchasing a house to not be an investment but an actual financial loss.

yagan

cnocbui wrote: »

Just stop. Taxation was the criteria, not 'spending power' or damp houses or other such intangibles. Every individual has to look at the topic of emigration from their own particular circumstances and in terms of their own values and aspirations.

The tax burden on individuals is appreciably lower in NZ than in Ireland.

Just because the historical and general standard of housing in NZ is low, doesn't mean someone who appreciates that fact who moves there has to put up with it.

I lived in Australia for many years before moving to Ireland. How many Irish people even think to compute the cost of heating in a climate where the average annual temperature is only 10°C vs 20°C in, say, Sydney? That for me represents a cost of living burden almost as great as the tax burden difference.

I've lived in Australia too and can cite the money wasted on aircon in homes that could be insulated against heat.

To look at it purely from a tax save point of view then I'd be better just working under half the year in NZ and Aus, claiming back non-resident tax, rinse and repeat every year (as many do) but that's not a life. At some you got to settle somewhere.

What you end up needing to pay for indirectly leaves you worse off in NZ. I really loved NZ, miss the cheap venison, some great scenery and definitely a better sense of humour than aussies, but to go there because of taxation is just a non runner.

super_furry

red petal wrote: »

€300k mortgage is exactly what I'm basing it on. I would want a 20% deposit. Maybe you're not from Dublin, but I most certainly wouldn't get a house the same size as my current (very small 3 bed) for less than €300k.

€150k interest is not something to forget easily. Houses in Ireland, particularly Dublin are way overpriced. Paying €450k over time for what's sold as an already overpriced €300k house is not in my interests, regardless of monthly payments.

You're talking about having €60k for a €300k house, so your mortgage will be €240k, you won't get even close to paying €150k over the lifetime of that in interest.

What kind of interest rates do you think you'll get in Canada. They between 3.15% and 4% here and pretty much the same in Canada https://www.superbrokers.ca/tools/mortgage-rates-comparison/

RayCun

cnocbui wrote: »

Ireland would be one of the very few countries in the OECD where a significant number of people would have found purchasing a house to not be an investment but an actual financial loss.

Over the lifetime of a 20 year mortgage?

[Deleted User]

RayCun wrote: »

But you'd have no problem paying rent for the same period?

yeah - and the rent is only €800 per month - happy days.

Lots of people don't want to get a mortgage. What's wrong with that?
My brother is in his 50's and has lived in Geneva and now Brooklyn NY. He's rented all his life. My daughter is in Vancouver renting for 5 years, my other daughter in London, also renting. All in good jobs too. Buying and getting a mortgage isn't for everyone.

red petal

Deleted User wrote: »

You either have to pay rent or a mortgage. If principal + interest is less than rent then you can afford it.
I'm not from Dublin and would love to be able to rent a decent 3 bed house where I am for €800 a month.

Yes, i know we're very lucky. I don't take that for granted! It is always in the back of my mind that it is not my house though and the situation could change and we have no control of that. At the same time the thoughts of a 25-30yr loan not ideal!

cnocbui

yagan wrote: »

I've lived in Australia too and can cite the money wasted on aircon in homes that could be insulated against heat.

To look at it purely from a tax save point of view then I'd be better just working under half the year in NZ and Aus, claiming back non-resident tax, rinse and repeat every year (as many do) but that's not a life. At some you got to settle somewhere.

What you end up needing to pay for indirectly leaves you worse off in NZ. I really loved NZ, miss the cheap venison, some great scenery and definitely a better sense of humour than aussies, but to go there because of taxation is just a non runner.

As I said, taxation is just one consideration, there is also climate and health care. Airconditioning costs are negligible compared to heating and they are optional - heating isn't. Can you put some actual numbers on these 'indirect costs' I'd like to know what you consider them to be as they obviously must be pretty substantial for you to refer to them.

red petal

super_furry wrote: »

You're talking about having €60k for a €300k house, so your mortgage will be €240k, you won't get even close to paying €150k over the lifetime of that in interest.

What kind of interest rates do you think you'll get in Canada. They between 3.15% and 4% here and pretty much the same in Canada https://www.superbrokers.ca/tools/mortgage-rates-comparison/

Over 30yrs with Ulsterbank at €1100 per month, it's €396k and that's if I'm luck enough to have a €60k deposit.

No intentions of buying in Canada.

cnocbui

RayCun wrote: »

Over the lifetime of a 20 year mortgage?

I haven't worked it out as I haven't had a mortgage for a while, but my own circumstances are that after many years of home ownership, I am probably looking at break even when I sell and more likely a loss, if taking into account inflation.

con___manx1

RasTa wrote: »

Go. Great place. Vancouver the best imo super hot summers and normal winters.

Normal winters but as a result full of homeless crack heads from the rest of the country that dont want to freeze to death in there own city during winter.

RayCun

Deleted User wrote: »

Lots of people don't want to get a mortgage. What's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong at all, and renting should be a more supported option.
It seems a bit contradictory to object to interest but not to rent, is my point.

cnocbui wrote: »

I haven't worked it out as I haven't had a mortgage for a while, but my own circumstances are that after many years of home ownership, I am probably looking at break even when I sell and more likely a loss, if taking into account inflation.

I don't think that's typical.

I guess for both comments, I'm saying you have to compare the cost of renting to "house price + interest + property tax - expected value of property at end of mortgage".
At 800/month, renting could well be better value

cnocbui

My current inclination would be to invest the proceeds from selling my house and to rent.

ArchXStanton

I wouldn't do it op, I've done nearly 2 years in Canada and its a paper chase, first time I ever ended up in debt was there, but that seems to be the way of life. I tried warning a mate of mine who was adamant he was going only for him to come back a year later and tell me everything I told him was right.

[Deleted User]

Everyone should read last Saturday Irish times article on renting I cant link it but you might be able to find it somewhere.

Very big difference between a well off professional renting in a country with a culture of long term renting and middle-aged people with insecure or middling paid jobs in Dublin and renting in Dublin.