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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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tuxy

Martynet wrote: »

Well if he was moving faster than 50 km/h, that's just wrong.

All MPVs are limited to the same speed legally which is the speed posted on the side of the road. He's not doing anything that's more illegal than you are.

rubadub

Grassey wrote: »

I was doing 35km/h down the bikelane in Churchtown last week. Was ghosted by a scooter that just appeared to my right in the bicycle lane travelling far in excess of that speed!!!

If I was teleported to a random place in Ireland in front of a scooter or a bike right now, to be struck by either, I would choose to be hit by a bike. This includes ebikes and of course there are a lot of non road legal e-bikes which go well over 25kmh, I am bearing them in mind so there is not point saying "oh oh wait, we are only talking about escooters that I personally approve of". The choice would not be by a huge margin, but from what I see on my commute I would take my chances with the bike.

You can see some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh
https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/

What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters, unicycles and skateboards in Ireland?

Electric vehicles or any other Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (MPV) do not need to be taxed or insured in Ireland as long as they don’t go over 45 mph. All our products travel below 45 mph. However, if any electric vehicles go over 45 mph, then those would need to get tax and insurance like a regular car or motorbike...

For further details please see garda.ie.

ted1

tuxy wrote: »

All MPVs are limited to the same speed legally which is the speed posted on the side of the road. He's not doing anything that's more illegal than you are.

Driving an MPV in a bike lane is illegal.

Grassey

tuxy wrote: »

All MPVs are limited to the same speed legally which is the speed posted on the side of the road. He's not doing anything that's more illegal than you are.

Well considering it was an offroad mandatory cycle lane then the presence there of a non-bicycle is illegal in and off itself.

Martynet

ted1 wrote: »

Driving an MPV in a bike lane is illegal.

That's exactly why the law has to be amended. Classic MPV scooters are heavy, smelly and loud and definitely don't belong to the bike lane. But all the new forms of personal transport, like escooters, skateboards, unicycles etc, are much lighter and should be allowed in cycling lane.

tuxy

Yup and same goes for no insurance on an MPV.
It just sounds like Martynet and the faster scooters he is condemning are breaking the exact same laws.

I do think the law does need to be amended to directly state where small electric vehicles stand though.

Martynet

rubadub wrote: »

If I was teleported to a random place in Ireland in front of a scooter or a bike right now, to be struck by either, I would choose to be hit by a bike. This includes ebikes and of course there are a lot of non road legal e-bikes which go well over 25kmh, I am bearing them in mind so there is not point saying "oh oh wait, we are only talking about escooters that I personally approve of". The choice would not be by a huge margin, but from what I see on my commute I would take my chances with the bike.

You can see some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh
https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/

That gyrowheel faq is all old and all wrong

tuxy

Martynet wrote: »

That gyrowheel faq is all old and all wrong

Yup this is the RSA's current stance

http://rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

Martynet

tuxy wrote: »

Yup and same goes for no insurance on an MPV.
It just sounds like Martynet and the faster scooters he is condemning are breaking the exact same laws.

I do think the law does need to be amended to directly state where small electric vehicles stand though.

We need a brand new category for these. It is the future and everyone will own on of these in couple of years. We need less space for cars and double or triple the width of the lanes for bikes and all these new forms of transport.

You should join us on the next eride and try it for yourself

http://eride.ie

tuxy

Martynet wrote: »

You should join us on the next eride and try it for yourself

http://eride.ie

So I could try that and you could try the Wicklow 200km with me?

Martynet

tuxy wrote: »

So I could try that and you could try the Wicklow 200km with me?

I'd love to but I sold my bike to get money for the scooter. I had the bike for commuting only really. And at the weekends I prefer to do walking/hiking.

beauf

FYI (for anyone else)

That a €2.5k (ish)
Max Speed: 65 Kmh (40 MPH) scooter.

Martynet

beauf wrote: »

FYI (for anyone else)

That a €2.5k (ish)
Max Speed: 65 Kmh (40 MPH) scooter.

I bought mine here: https://scootera.uk
Great guy to deal with. Based in London.

I didn't buy my scooter for end of commute. I was originally going to and was looking at m365 sccoter, but then I realized that it would be nice to scoot all the way to work and avoid overcrowded luas. m365 and similar are "end of commute" type scooter and I wouldn't use them for trips longer than 5km. And than there is hills. Cheap scooters and hills are not good friends. Especially if youre weight is close to 90 Kg. Which is my case too. And finally it's safety. Double suspension and 10-11" tyres makes big difference and gives you much more stability. Safety first

paruss100

Martynet wrote: »

I bought mine here: https://scootera.uk
Great guy to deal with. Based in London.

I didn't buy my scooter for end of commute. I was originally going to and was looking at m365 sccoter, but then I realized that it would be nice to scoot all the way to work and avoid overcrowded luas. m365 and similar are "end of commute" type scooter and I wouldn't use them for trips longer than 5km. And than there is hills. Cheap scooters and hills are not good friends. Especially if youre weight is close to 90 Kg. Which is my case too. And finally it's safety. Double suspension and 10-11" tyres makes big difference and gives you much more stability. Safety first

Have to say the m365 handles hills very well, was surprised by the ones it goes up. But saying that I am about 70kg. Also takes me 8-9k to work and back no problems.

OmegaRed

tuxy wrote: »

Yup this is the RSA's current stance

http://rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

So this guys was stopped and let off because he proved it needed to be kick started first and the Guards said thats fine so its not a MPV...

rubadub

OmegaRed wrote: »

So this guys was stopped and let off because he proved it needed to be kick started first and the Guards said thats fine so its not a MPV...

I think the gardai misunderstood it. I wondered if you could actually get in trouble for it, hard to prove he did it knowingly but I wonder if it matters. He starts pulling out papers and claiming to have been to the gardai website and says "road safety authority frequently ask questions" meaning a FAQ, but when I first saw the video I thought he was saying he has been pulled over before and "frequently questioned" about it.

Both gardas are saying "its assisted then", which makes me think they might believe it needs continual scooting, similar to a pedelec or the other scooter in a recent video.

As he seems so confident and seemingly has "proof" it is understandable that they would fall for it.

I think the guy in the video (Robi) believes it is not road legal himself and is a chancer, he even has a petition up to legalise them.

https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/escoot

Lately, Electric Scooters and other eRides are being seized by Garda, on a daily basis.

Legally speaking, they currently are Mechanically Propelled Vehicles that require driving license, insurance and motor tax.

They currently can't be registered for motor tax, so they can't be insured either.

ted1 wrote: »

Looks like a staged video. Think the Gardaí have more branding.

I wondered about that too, but checking other images I think it is legit, you would want to be mad faking something like that.

tuxy

If a few guards misinterpret the law and make a mistake(everyone makes mistakes) it does not change the law.

Martynet

ted1 wrote: »

Looks like a staged video. Think the Gardaí have more branding.

It's definitely not staged. I know the guy from our eride group. We all carry this sheet of paper with different quotes from garda.ie, rsa.ie etc... And as you can see, it sometimes helps. Electric scooter with kick to start might not be MPV and lots of gards agree with that. Some of them don't. Like the one on Kevin Street last weeks. Where he seized good amount of scooters last week.

Martynet

Oh nearly forgot, once rubadub shared the link to the petition here, please feel free to sign and share. Let's make erides legal together

Martynet

https://imgur.com/a/97B1kF9

tuxy

Martynet wrote: »

It's definitely not staged. I know the guy from our eride group. We all carry this sheet of paper with different quotes from garda.ie, rsa.ie etc... And as you can see, it sometimes helps. Electric scooter with kick to start might not be MPV and lots of gards agree with that. Some of them don't. Like the one on Kevin Street last weeks. Where he seized good amount of scooters last week.

Would scooting be continued scooting or just one scoot to start?
There must be a reason both the gardi and rsa use the pural.
If you stop pesaling on a legal ebike you lose all asistance. How long does the assistance generally last between scoots?

I do agree the law is too vague. It's reasonably clear on ebikes but everything else would fit the discription of an mpv inder current laws.
I would hope that laws would be introduced for electric scooters to make it clear. Having ones that give you a slight boost every time you scoot would be best and in line with the laws for ebikes.

RHJ

Another new scooter being launched by xiaomi for anyone that's interested they have even added pedals to try and make it legal in most countries.

https://electrek.co/2019/04/23/xiaomi-himo-t1-electric-moped-bike/amp/

tuxy

RHJ wrote: »

Another new scooter being launched by xiaomi for anyone that's interested they have even added pedals to try and make it legal in most countries.

https://electrek.co/2019/04/23/xiaomi-himo-t1-electric-moped-bike/amp/

If the pedals actually did something it would be classes as an ebike in Ireland and be legal.

Close.......

Martynet

tuxy wrote: »

Would scooting be continued scooting or just one scoot to start?
There must be a reason both the gardi and rsa use the pural.
If you stop pesaling on a legal ebike you lose all asistance. How long does the assistance generally last between scoots?

I do agree the law is too vague. It's reasonably clear on ebikes but everything else would fit the discription of an mpv inder current laws.
I would hope that laws would be introduced for electric scooters to make it clear. Having ones that give you a slight boost every time you scoot would be best and in line with the laws for ebikes.

How long does the assistance generally last between scoots?
Until you stop, at the red light for example.

I don't think that scooter with assisted push would be any use. Maybe in Holland, where everything is flat. But not in Ireland. Not only you would sweat your soul off going up the Sandyford Road for example. Anyway this hole thing with pedalec or not is weird. It shouldn't make any difference. What should be considered is the weight and top speed. Not what the source of power is...legs or electric motor. For example in Czech republic it's plain and simple. Electric gadgets are allowed without any tax or insurance up to 1000W motor and 30 km/h speed. And 6 km/h speed on pavement. And if you want more powerful scooter with 3000W and higher top speed, then you need to register it and get insurance. Done.

DeKing

Martynet wrote:

It's definitely not staged. I know the guy from our eride group. We all carry this sheet of paper with different quotes from garda.ie, rsa.ie etc... And as you can see, it sometimes helps. Electric scooter with kick to start might not be MPV and lots of gards agree with that. Some of them don't. Like the one on Kevin Street last weeks. Where he seized good amount of scooters last week.

Can you send me a copy of this sheet of paper? I'd hate to have my scooter taken off me. Got rid of the car as found I didn't need it, so dependant on the scooter for commuting.

tuxy

DeKing wrote: »

Can you send me a copy of this sheet of paper? I'd hate to have my scooter taken off me. Got rid of the car as found I didn't need it, so dependant on the scooter for commuting.

Just print out these

https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853 (last question on the page)

http://rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

Now I know it does not cover the current scooters that are in use and the RSA one even makes it very clear that these are consider MPVs it seems to be enough to trick some guards.

ED E

If the trick fails its a max fine of five grand...

rubadub

Martynet wrote: »

Not only you would sweat your soul off going up the Sandyford Road for example. Anyway this hole thing with pedalec or not is weird. It shouldn't make any difference. What should be considered is the weight and top speed. Not what the source of power is...legs or electric motor

The very fact you are not sweating could be the part of the problem. It is my understanding that the bike to work scheme was partly to promote fitness (and free up roads which scooters would do). They put lots of money into fitness equipment in parks too. So there could well be objection to them being used on cyclepaths, discouraging potential cyclists from using them if there was a big increase in traffic on them.

tuxy

ED E wrote: »

If the trick fails its a max fine of five grand...

Is it a mandatory court appearance like it would be for anyone caught driving with no insurance?

Martynet

tuxy wrote: »

Just print out these

https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853 (last question on the page)

http://rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

Now I know it does not cover the current scooters that are in use and the RSA one even makes it very clear that these are consider MPVs it seems to be enough to trick some guards.

here you go. I'll try to find better quality later. Forgot my phone today.