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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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CatInABox

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Dart every 5 minutes? Where do you see that

I can't find it, sorry. I've definitely read it in a published government document, but I've checked all the available one's that spring to mind.

gooddarts10

CatInABox wrote: »

Ten minute Darts are a key part of BusConnects. It's a legitimate complaint, but unfortunately, it runs up against creating a great network for everyone in Dublin.

Eventually, once they get enough carriages, they plan on running the Dart every five minutes (presumably every Dart will be four carriages).

Dart every 5 minutes? Where do you see that

CatInABox

Ireland trains wrote: »

I also believe that the 10 min dart is unecessary at off peak because they run nearly empty and has made greystones-connolly 1 hour long.

Ten minute Darts are a key part of BusConnects. It's a legitimate complaint, but unfortunately, it runs up against creating a great network for everyone in Dublin.

Eventually, once they get enough carriages, they plan on running the Dart every five minutes (presumably every Dart will be four carriages).

marno21

IMO DART to Drogheda is nuts.

It would be one thing if you split Connolly-Drogheda into 2 sections and ran the southern half as an express service between halfway and the city centre. But this isn't really feasible without adding extra tracks to the Northern Line

Ireland trains

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

Then just operate every 20 mins from Howth to Greystones and every 20 minutes from Balbriggan(Drogheda?) to Bray. If we want to get fancy, build a passing loop near Greystones and operate every 10 minutes Greystones to Drogheda and every 10 minutes from Howth to Howth Junction.

They can't seriously be considering having full DART (i.e. serving all stations) all the way to Balbriggan or further north, are they? I know it gets mentioned in the media but I assume that this is not accurate and taking electrification to mean something it isn't.

With getting DART, the towns further north would be getting a much worse service. The increased frequency means nothing if journey times into the city are almost doubling. Buses or driving down the M1 to the Metrolink P&R would become more attractive options for many. Maintaining a 10 minute frequency would require a lot of additional rolling stock, with lots of capacity wasted running almost empty trains up the coast for much of the day. A short DART extension and limited stop electric commuter services would be better for everyone.

Where have you gotten the notion that journey times would double. Yes there will be more stops as usually the commuter trains go express to mallahide. But eletric trains have much better acceleration and deceleration which would make up time. Also 10 min dart to drogheda should only be at peak times. Off peak should be 15-20min with one of the trains being fast.
Also on the subject of greystones, if irish rail just stable some trains there overnight and run an extra 1-2 diesels there would be sufficent capacity. South of greystones desperately needs more trains as it is normally standing before wicklow.
I also believe that the 10 min dart is unecessary at off peak because they run nearly empty and has made greystones-connolly 1 hour long.
Finally iv been getting the 16:3x rosslarr train from connolly this week and it was an ICR 2 of the days and a 29K train today. Does anyone know what train is supposed to run that service as the 29k have nowhere enough seats for people.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

Then just operate every 20 mins from Howth to Greystones and every 20 minutes from Balbriggan(Drogheda?) to Bray. If we want to get fancy, build a passing loop near Greystones and operate every 10 minutes Greystones to Drogheda and every 10 minutes from Howth to Howth Junction.

They can't seriously be considering having full DART (i.e. serving all stations) all the way to Balbriggan or further north, are they? I know it gets mentioned in the media but I assume that this is not accurate and taking electrification to mean something it isn't.

With getting DART, the towns further north would be getting a much worse service. The increased frequency means nothing if journey times into the city are almost doubling. Buses or driving down the M1 to the Metrolink P&R would become more attractive options for many. Maintaining a 10 minute frequency would require a lot of additional rolling stock, with lots of capacity wasted running almost empty trains up the coast for much of the day. A short DART extension and limited stop electric commuter services would be better for everyone.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

so...feck Greystones, have a DART shuttle to Bray every 10 mins instead.

Realistically without a passing loop the current schedule is as good as you can get.

More than that is suicidal from an operational perspective.

People need to be practical and realistic about what can be done.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

Operating every 20 mins to Greystones would leave the line between there and Bray occupied 100% of the time and leave zero resilience and would result in mayhem.

There is a reason for the current practice of operating every 30 minutes.

so...feck Greystones, have a DART shuttle to Bray every 10 mins instead.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Then just operate every 20 mins from Howth to Greystones and every 20 minutes from Balbriggan(Drogheda?) to Bray. If we want to get fancy, build a passing loop near Greystones and operate every 10 minutes Greystones to Drogheda and every 10 minutes from Howth to Howth Junction.

Operating every 20 mins to Greystones would leave the line between there and Bray occupied 100% of the time and leave zero resilience and would result in mayhem.

There is a reason for the current practice of operating every 30 minutes.

cgcsb

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Ten minute Dart service from Greystones is not possible due to the single line

Then just operate every 20 mins from Howth to Greystones and every 20 minutes from Balbriggan(Drogheda?) to Bray. If we want to get fancy, build a passing loop near Greystones and operate every 10 minutes Greystones to Drogheda and every 10 minutes from Howth to Howth Junction.

gooddarts10

cgcsb wrote: »

How we deal with intercity trains while having a congested commuter network will be challenging.

Terminating Sligo trains at Glasnevin could be an option. Belfast at Docklands, with 3rd track added where possible on the northern line. Heuston-Parkwest should be 4 tracks with DART expansion anyway and Rosslare trains can stop at Grand Canal.

Then have 10 minute DARTS Greystones-Howth/Malahide, Kildare-Grand Canal Dock, Maynooth/M3-Docklands. Make every 3rd DART a long distance hybrid commuter that continues to Dundalk, Longford and Portlaoise respectively.

Ten minute Dart service from Greystones is not possible due to the single line

Ireland trains

What really annoys me is out of service transfers eg bray-Connolly morning commuter services, heuston-Grand canal dock transfers and connolly-drogheda transfers. Why cant they just run them as an express service and allow passengers on as it would not cost IE anything and can only add revenue. Heuston-GCD would be a very good train to have as a transfer as right now heuston is not linked directly by heavy rail to the connolly lines

cgcsb

How we deal with intercity trains while having a congested commuter network will be challenging.

Terminating Sligo trains at Glasnevin could be an option. Belfast at Docklands, with 3rd track added where possible on the northern line. Heuston-Parkwest should be 4 tracks with DART expansion anyway and Rosslare trains can stop at Grand Canal.

Then have 10 minute DARTS Greystones-Howth/Malahide, Kildare-Grand Canal Dock, Maynooth/M3-Docklands. Make every 3rd DART a long distance hybrid commuter that continues to Dundalk, Longford and Portlaoise respectively.

LXFlyer

Zebra3 wrote: »

Said it before and I’ll say it again, trains (non-DARTs) from beyond Bray should terminate at the old platforms 1/2 in Pearse to ease some of the pressure on the loop line.

Given that the trains get serviced at Connolly & Drogheda and then also operate services on other routes out of Connolly, with one continuing to Dundalk as a through service, that’s not very practical. The sets don’t stick to the Rosslare route but are interworked with other routes.

They’re not exactly putting the loop line under pressure let’s be honest - we are talking only about 5 trains a day.

L1011

Zebra3 wrote: »

Said it before and I’ll say it again, trains (non-DARTs) from beyond Bray should terminate at the old platforms 1/2 in Pearse to ease some of the pressure on the loop line.

The platforms that don't exist anymore and I believe have lift shafts through them? Think that horse has completely bolted.

cgcsb wrote: »

I would contend that metrolink will add lots of cross-liffey capacity. The Glasnevin interchange will attract lots of pax onto metro that would otherwise have crossed the loop line.

From one of the three major approaches - it'll help but not enough.

Zebra3

Said it before and I’ll say it again, trains (non-DARTs) from beyond Bray should terminate at the old platforms 1/2 in Pearse to ease some of the pressure on the loop line.

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

And require demolishing the roof of Pearse Station.

DART Underground is the only way more cross-Liffey capacity is being added.

I would contend that metrolink will add lots of cross-liffey capacity. The Glasnevin interchange will attract lots of pax onto metro that would otherwise have crossed the loop line.

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

An extra 2 tracks could go above the existing two between Clontarf road and Sandymount but they would be architecturally unsightly, which is the most important consideration

And require demolishing the roof of Pearse Station.

DART Underground is the only way more cross-Liffey capacity is being added.

thomasjad

Work has commenced on the car park at Kishoge train station after many long years. Expected completion 6 months according to on site builder.

cgcsb

An extra 2 tracks could go above the existing two between Clontarf road and Sandymount but they would be architecturally unsightly, which is the most important consideration

prunudo

Ireland trains wrote: »

I wonder if irish rail will ever add a 3rd track from connolly to grand canal dock/Lansdowne and what would be the estimated cost. They are running trains very close together now and they are having to wait at connolly a lot.
I assume the new platform 8 at connolly will be a suburban platform on the far left looking north.
Also the rosslare service now takes an hour to cover around 30 kilometres to greystones where as it should really take at the most 40

Its a shame there isnt more room along the Dart line for adding extra rails, even if they were just passing loops. Bar the section near Shankill and between Bray Head and Greystones theres very little options to increase track capacity.

1huge1

I really don't see where the space is for a 3rd track, especially with the loop line bridge.

I believe one of the main aims of Dart Underground was to take rail traffic away from this particular bottleneck.

Ireland trains

I wonder if irish rail will ever add a 3rd track from connolly to grand canal dock/Lansdowne and what would be the estimated cost. They are running trains very close together now and they are having to wait at connolly a lot.
I assume the new platform 8 at connolly will be a suburban platform on the far left looking north.
Also the rosslare service now takes an hour to cover around 30 kilometres to greystones where as it should really take at the most 40

Ireland trains

marno21

Kilcock would be nice to have DART, but it's important to remember that there isn't 1km of electrified line on the Maynooth line, so we do have to start somewhere, and this project does include 40km of electrification. (The remainder includes 20km on the Heuston line (+ 4 tracking from Parkwest to Heuston) and 37km on the Northern Line)

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I assume that there is no mention of Pelletstown station as part of the Maynooth DARTification? It should be a no brainer to do it as part of the project, I assume all the nearby housing developments have had to pay development levies towards it.

It's being advanced separately, tender out at present.

Pete_Cavan

I assume that there is no mention of Pelletstown station as part of the Maynooth DARTification? It should be a no brainer to do it as part of the project, I assume all the nearby housing developments have had to pay development levies towards it.

highdef

Kilcock train station has room for a second platform so a turnback/passing loop there would be relatively easy to install.

Hopefully a phase 2 to Kilcock (and perhaps beyond) is completed before the population there increases. The M4 is already over capacity most days and with so many houses being built west of Dublin and into Kildare, a frequent and fast commuter rail service needs to come online pronto.

Pete_Cavan

L1011 wrote: »

Its not in scope of current works and adding it would delay them significantly - this capacity has been needed for 4-5 years already so further delays can't be countenanced.

Perfectly sound idea for a future phase.

No it won't be done as part of the initial electrification but it is something that should be considered for an immediate phase 2. It would also allow for the provision of turnback platforms which are important to get proper use out of the infrastructure.

L1011

Its not in scope of current works and adding it would delay them significantly - this capacity has been needed for 4-5 years already so further delays can't be countenanced.

Perfectly sound idea for a future phase.