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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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Martynet

Most of the gards are sound about it and if you wear a helmet and highwiz and respect all the traffic rules, you should be ok. There is few gards around Dublin and they'll just seize your eride... But most of them not. My friend who is a gard told me that if your scooter is "kick-to-start", it's not MPV.

beauf

I've a kick to start rocket powered tank. Not an MPV according to above. I think its classed as bicycle.

rubadub

Post from today in the cycling forum.

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Also, a motorcycle Guard had a load of electric scooters piled up on Kevin St. this morning, recovery truck there too to take them all away.

beauf

Maybe hes selling them...

Martynet

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Electric bikes are legal because when you stop pedalling the motor runs down and would stop entirely if you did not start pedalling again."Pedal-assist" The scooter obviously has no pedals and once started it keeps on going. It was discussed on Ray Darcy today.

It doesn't keep going if you don't hold the throttle

beauf

Martynet wrote: »

It doesn't keep going if you don't hold the throttle

Neither does my car.

Markcheese

rubadub wrote: »

Post from today in the cycling forum.

It would be a motorcycle cop wouldn't it... ðŸ˜€
(in fairness they're all traffic Corp and can pull in easier to stop... As a opposed to a regular Garda whose focus has to be broader...

...Ghost...

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry it is 100% crystal clear. For the one millionth time! Myself and others plus the Garda have made it clear.

Oh, well that clears it up then. You and a Garda made it crystal clear. Except not all people and not all Garda agree with you. Many Garda have said the push start scooters are not MPVs. Others have disagreed and have seized them....but I have only seen motorcycle Gardaí doing this so far and I said my part about them already.

If the motor can propel you AT ANY POINT without physical effort it is a MPV. That is the law in Ireland and repeatedly saying "its a grey area" or "there is no definitive answer" is bollox sorry!

Interesting. Most pedelec motors will continue to propel the rider for about 2 seconds after the rider stops pedalling. They must be MPVs then. I haven't seen the law which states what you claimed however.

In simple terms - Its not about how you get them moving. Its about how they move you.

If it was that simple, there would be do discussion regarding the legality of e-scooters which require a push to start each time it stops.

They are illegal under current road traffic laws. End of story!

Are they though? Many people don't agree with you. What most people do agree to, is that the legislation needs to be clarified/amended.

If the legislation truly was clear, there would not be so many talking about the grey area most e-scooters occupy.

rubadub wrote: »

What speed were they doing? some bikes have a walk function which can power the motor without pedalling but only to a slow walking pace. If it was being powered without pedalling at a normal cycling speed then yes, it is likely a MPV.

:eek::eek::eek:

A walk function? Hang on now. You mean they are being propelled without any physical effort from the rider?

ED E

Five seized this morning.

rubadub

...Ghost... wrote: »

A walk function? Hang on now. You mean they are being propelled without any physical effort from the rider?

It does, I testing mine there and it will engage the motor if I am sitting on it and pressing the walk function. I thought it didn't do this, I thought you may have to actively push it or that it woudl somehow detect you are on it. The pedals are turning so you have to stick you legs out if you do not want to move your feet, you are also going at a walking pace and stopped going once I got to a hill.

There may be a lower speed limit they are sticking to, just like the electric wheelchair example.

Or maybe it is indeed illegal to be doing it on the road. Some ebikes had switches to change to be road legal or not. I guess they would have to catch you in the act but could be legal to have the feature on the bike. Just like cars are allowed on the road which are capable of easily breaking the upper speedlimit if they want. Similarly if you have an electric scooter turned off and you are manually scooting along I guess it might be OK.

So if a garda saw me going along at a snails pace with my legs out I might well be done for it.

Mine certainly does not continue giving power for 2 seconds after stopping pedalling, that would be extremely annoying.

beauf

Just wish they would sort it out.

I see more and more on the streets.

We've known about scooters for a long time now and it should have been sorted out.

That said it took years to much of the bike laws changed.

prinzeugen

...Ghost... wrote: »

Oh, well that clears it up then. You and a Garda made it crystal clear. Except not all people and not all Garda agree with you. Many Garda have said the push start scooters are not MPVs. Others have disagreed and have seized them....but I have only seen motorcycle Gardaí doing this so far and I said my part about them already.

If it was that simple, there would be do discussion regarding the legality of e-scooters which require a push to start each time it stops.

Are they though? Many people don't agree with you. What most people do agree to, is that the legislation needs to be clarified/amended.

If the legislation truly was clear, there would not be so many talking about the grey area most e-scooters occupy.

Again.. There is no grey area. How the thing starts does not matter. This thing about "push to start" is bull****e, made up by sellers trying to fool people into buying them.

People are just repeating this "fake news".

Have you any evidence that "many Garda" have said these things are legal? The reason motorcycle Garda have been seizing them is because they are traffic cops. It is their job!

rosmoke

It's also bull**** to get insurance for a kids scooter ... cause that's what it is essentially.
Even insurance companies laugh their ass off when you ask about insuring these scooters.
How come they are grand in so many countries and in here it isn't?
Why stop here, let's have insurance for bicycles because they are heavier, are reaching a higher speed, have a worse weight distribution and are more dangerous.
Even if I want to insure a kids scooter I've nowhere to go, it's just not possible because it can't be powered by power alone.

beauf

rosmoke wrote: »

It's also bull**** to get insurance for a kids scooter ... cause that's what it is essentially.
Even insurance companies laugh their ass off when you ask about insuring these scooters.
How come they are grand in so many countries and in here it isn't?
Why stop here, let's have insurance for bicycles because they are heavier, are reaching a higher speed, have a worse weight distribution and are more dangerous.
Even if I want to insure a kids scooter I've nowhere to go, it's just not possible because it can't be powered by power alone.

....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBcLcQbP78

rosmoke

beauf wrote: »

....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBcLcQbP78

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoUmgMhn2iY

We're talking about scooters that go with 25km/h max speed with a skinny person and no backpack, 15km/h on a slight hill and they even stop on a serious incline.
If you think this is dangerous then you shouldn't leave your house.

beauf

The bicycle in your video is perfectly legal on the be road. Unless there's some law I'm unaware of that makes homemade bicycles illegal.

Your eScooter isn't. There no law that covers it, or any speed limit. It's nothing to do with being dangerous. It's simply has no legal classification.

Maybe you'll explain why you mention speed limits at all, or danger. You've done it twice now.

prinzeugen

rosmoke wrote: »

It's also bull**** to get insurance for a kids scooter ... cause that's what it is essentially.
Even insurance companies laugh their ass off when you ask about insuring these scooters.
How come they are grand in so many countries and in here it isn't?
Why stop here, let's have insurance for bicycles because they are heavier, are reaching a higher speed, have a worse weight distribution and are more dangerous.
Even if I want to insure a kids scooter I've nowhere to go, it's just not possible because it can't be powered by power alone.

If you are old enough, you may remember the "fad" around 2007 was for mini motorbikes. There was a electric kids version. Seized by the Garda? Why?

They were MPVs. Not registered, taxed etc. Kid on one? Not legal anyway. A person under 16 cannot hold a motorbike licence so were breaking the law by using them in a public place.

So calling them kids toys is rubbish. And there was a case before the courts before (in Co Tipp IIRC).

The insurance companies laugh like feck because these things will never be road legal and thus cannot be insured under a regular RTA policy.

rosmoke

@beauf

Electric scooters are legal, in here and many other countries.
You posted an illegal scooter that can reach a high speed, I posted a link with a legal bike that can go faster, I was talking about how they're less dangerous than bikes and you're going on about your understanding of laws.

I'll live it like that, you're right.

rosmoke

prinzeugen wrote: »

If you are old enough, you may remember the "fad" around 2007 was for mini motorbikes. There was a electric kids version. Seized by the Garda? Why?

They were MPVs. Not registered, taxed etc. Kid on one? Not legal anyway. A person under 16 cannot hold a motorbike licence so were breaking the law by using them in a public place.

So calling them kids toys is rubbish. And there was a case before the courts before (in Co Tipp IIRC).

The insurance companies laugh like feck because these things will never be road legal and thus cannot be insured under a regular RTA policy.

Those were MPVs, very dangerous, powerful and illegal.
Electric scooters are nothing like them, they are less powerful, way safer, have a quite low maximum speed and can't go on their own without being pushed.

Have you ever tried an electric scooter?

rosmoke

Garda's website https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853

The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.

beauf

rosmoke wrote: »

@beauf

Electric scooters are legal, in here and many other countries.
You posted an illegal scooter that can reach a high speed, I posted a link with a legal bike that can go faster, I was talking about how they're less dangerous than bikes and you're going on about your understanding of laws.

I'll live it like that, you're right.

All the scooters are legal on private ground. They are not illegal themselves. They just aren't allowed on the road, or the path of you're an adult. That's why they are being seized.

Why do you think the one in the video is illegal. There is no specific limit for scooters. You seem to be confusing the assistance cut off for ebicycles. It doesn't say you can't pedal eBikes faster if you can.

Maybe you could post some stats about how bikes are more dangerous.

The funny think about going fast is more dangerous. But in fact it's inappropriate speed that's dangerous. Motorways are generally a lot safer than other roads for example.

Most people can't cycle very fast for very long anyway. So it's self limiting.

prinzeugen

rosmoke wrote: »

Those were MPVs, very dangerous, powerful and illegal.
Electric scooters are nothing like them, they are less powerful, way safer, have a quite low maximum speed and can't go on their own without being pushed.

Have you ever tried an electric scooter?

They are the same. Just a different market. They were illegal then and they still are now!

And I hold Full clean cat A licence. So no I do not want to ride one.

rosmoke

Just wasting my time here.

beauf

Incidentally here is a scooter with no throttle.

It only has an assisted mode.

https://youtu.be/0QvtcLe4vGc

prinzeugen

beauf wrote: »

Incidentally here is a scooter with no throttle.

It only has an assisted mode.

https://youtu.be/0QvtcLe4vGc

MPV. Booster/flywheel or other, read the law.

And was the English voice that sold it?

tuxy

beauf wrote: »

Incidentally here is a scooter with no throttle.

It only has an assisted mode.

https://youtu.be/0QvtcLe4vGc

Looked good until it showed you could be propelled forward using a hip motion and there was no need to put your foot on the ground. That's hardly consider scooting is it?

beauf

prinzeugen wrote: »

MPV. Booster/flywheel or other, read the law.

And was the English voice that sold it?

Did anyone claim otherwise?

beauf

tuxy wrote: »

Looked good until it showed you could be propelled forward using a hip motion and there was no need to put your foot on the ground. That's hardly consider scooting is it?

Why would that matter?

prinzeugen

tuxy wrote: »

Looked good until it showed you could be propelled forward using a hip motion and there was no need to put your foot on the ground. That's hardly consider scooting is it?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnBURvKW4I

Is this a MPV? Push to start! No go otherwise!

tuxy

beauf wrote: »

Why would that matter?

Because until the law is made clearer the Garda's current stance is probably the best info to go on.