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Have we reach peak LGBT nonsense?

antiskeptic

Haven't read the detail but in essence a rugby players career called a halt to because he said gays and various other sinners will go to hell.

Leaving aside his dodgy theology (if God was in the business of excluding sinners from heaven then nobody would "get there"), is this not a case of LGBT sensitivity gone mad?

You are now not allowed to state your belief?

I can understand that some in A&A might rejoice but surely many can see the deeper ramifications: that at another time and place, their own expression of belief might not be of the moment and be condemned for mere expression.

Thin end of a thick wedge, this one.

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Ave Sodalis

eagle eye wrote:

What about a drunk, adulterer and all the rest of those he said will go to hell?

These are all choices. By bible standards, they can all repent and never do it again.

Deleted User wrote:

nobody thinks that this is about a serious increase in risk of anyone going to hell asca result of his comments

Well, you are in the wrong forum for anyone to think that there is a risk. There have been multiple posts regarding why what he said is wrong. That isn't what was asked.

sydthebeat

recedite wrote: »

Ergo, its about freedom of speech.

Israel folaus "freedom of speech" has not been impacted in any way.

He is as free to say what he wants today as he did last week.

splinter65

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are Catholic people so interested in what consenting people do in private?

If you want to be a Catholic and your gay then you have to be celibate.
They’re not interested in anyone who’s not Catholic.

Ave Sodalis

splinter65 wrote:

If you want to be a Catholic and your gay then you have to be celibate. Theyâ€™re not interested in anyone whoâ€™s not Catholic.

I think we would find from the recent referendum that they are very much worried about all, not just Catholics.

splinter65

King Mob wrote: »

Not really seeing one.
But again splitting hairs and ignoring my other point from the same post.

Maybe you guys can point to some examples of what you think bigoted statements really are.

If you don’t believe in hell or sin then why would you be bothered about someone who does telling you that sinning is what your doing and hell is where your going?
I mean, he might as well be saying that Santa or the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy is not going to come to you because you’re gay either.
A bigoted statement, for example, would be saying that gay people/black people/disabled people/Travellers should be prevented from playing sports with straight people.

splinter65

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I think we would find from the recent referendum that they are very much worried about all, not just Catholics.

Well that’s another thread,and nothing to do with homosexuality, but if Catholics see abortion as murder ( they do) then they will do everything they can to stop the murder, as anyone would.

magicbastarder

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Atheists don't believe in hell. It would be like threatening you with the Bogeyman. However, not every gay person is atheist, and the LGBT community is still very much a vulnerable community. They still are open to hateful acts against them, and being tortured for eternity is a very real threat for some people.

Basically, being threatened with hell isn't going to worry an atheist. It can cause hurt to someone who is gay when there's absolutely nothing they can do about it.

Or else it's because that in most societies in recent history, being atheist wasn't really something you had to worry about having the **** kicked out of you for, etc.

[Deleted User]

splinter65 wrote: »

If you don’t believe in hell or sin then why would you be bothered about someone who does telling you that sinning is what your doing and hell is where your going?
I mean, he might as well be saying that Santa or the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy is not going to come to you because you’re gay either.
A bigoted statement, for example, would be saying that gay people/black people/disabled people/Travellers should be prevented from playing sports with straight people.

Empty threats are still threats.
They are still vile and hateful.

Why in your opinion would someone saying that gay people etc couldn't play with straight people be an issue when there's no fear of any such thing being enforced, least of all by the single person saying it?
Its an empty threat, so by your argument not a big deal, therefore not bigoted.

Would you consider the idea that "being gay leads to harm for the person and society" to be bigoted?

Tell me how

magicbastarder wrote: »

Or else it's because that in most societies in recent history, being atheist wasn't really something you had to worry about having the **** kicked out of you for, etc.

From Washington Post.

The report tracks, among other things, which countries have laws explicitly targeting atheists. There are not many, but the states that forbid non-religiousness – typically as part of "anti-blasphemy" legislation – include seven nations where atheism is punishable by death. All seven establish Islam as the state religion. Though that list includes some dictatorships, the country that appears to most frequently condemn atheists to death for their beliefs is actually a democracy, if a frail one: Pakistan.

recedite

sydthebeat wrote: »

Israel folaus "freedom of speech" has not been impacted in any way.

He is as free to say what he wants today as he did last week.

Its a bull$hit argument, in fairness. Freedom is about having choices. Its never absolute, but the more choices that are chipped away, then the less genuine that freedom is.
Its like saying to an 18th century slave on a Virginia cotton plantation "But you are free - if you don't like this life you can always top yourself."
Yes, there are always some choices.

[Deleted User]

recedite wrote: »

Ergo, its about freedom of speech.

away with your ergo

if you cant help conflating free speech with consequence-free speech you wont make much of a mark in life or in online debates im afraid

Ave Sodalis

splinter65 wrote:

Well thatâ€™s another thread,and nothing to do with homosexuality, but if Catholics see abortion as murder ( they do) then they will do everything they can to stop the murder, as anyone would.

I meant the marriage referendum

Mark Hamill

antiskeptic wrote: »

Did he say they deserve it. Or did he say they would go to hell if they didn't repent.

I'm sure you can appreciate there's a difference?

You can be sent to hell even if you don't deserve it?

eagle eye

King Mob wrote:

Instead of asking "what about...?", could you perhaps detail the point you are trying to make?

I'm saying he didn't single out gay people, basically everybody that he deems a sinner.
I understand your point about gay people being different but this has nothing to do with hate speech. He is asking all sinners to repent.
In his Bible it's wrong to commit sexual acts with another man.
It's not just the Bible that has this stuff in it, it's in the Koran and the Tanakh too.

King Mob wrote:

Why do you think people are making a big deal about these comnents? Do you believe they are wrong to do so?

I think people are confusing religious waffle with hate speech. The man is clearly a devout religious person, I'd call that a religious nut. He'll probably end up a preacher when he retires from sport.
He is begging sinners to repent. That's all this is, he doesn't say anything about gay people being put down or being physically hurt. He doesn't specify anymore than just saying that all these people are sinners.
I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion, I believe everybody is entitled to air their views so long as it's in a peaceful way.
I'm not religious but I accept that others are, I'm not gay but have no issue with gay people and have some gay friends. I drink very little but understand that there is a huge drinking culture in this country, I'd argue that we have major problems with alcohol in Ireland. I have zero tolerance for adulterers as in those going behind the backs of their partners and cheating on them.
So I have views and some differ from other people but I'm peaceful about them and I find it hard to comprehend how everybody can't just get along and talk about things and not get angry because when people shout other people get angry.

[Deleted User]

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You can be sent to hell even if you don't deserve it?

They only deserve it if they dont apologise beg for forgiveness for being gay.

cgcsb

splinter65 wrote: »

If you don’t believe in hell or sin then why would you be bothered about someone who does telling you that sinning is what your doing and hell is where your going?
I mean, he might as well be saying that Santa or the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy is not going to come to you because you’re gay either.
A bigoted statement, for example, would be saying that gay people/black people/disabled people/Travellers should be prevented from playing sports with straight people.

It's the intetion behind it, he believes it's a nasty thing to say

eagle eye

cgcsb wrote:

It's the intetion behind it, he believes it's a nasty thing to say

Which does? Folau? He is a religious nut, it's nothing to do with nasty. He believes that all the different categories of people he mentioned are sinners and he is asking them to repent.

[Deleted User]

eagle eye wrote: »

Which does? Folau? He is a religious nut, it's nothing to do with nasty. He believes that all the different categories of people he mentioned are sinners and he is asking them to repent.

And that if they dont they'll be tortured forever because what they are doing is evil and harmful to themselves and others.

Being gay is not evil or harmful.

recedite

King Mob wrote: »

And that if they dont they'll be tortured forever..

At least they won't have to sit around on a cloud plucking harp strings and eating philadelphia cheese. And they'll have the drunks for company.

joe40

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are Catholic people so interested in what consenting people do in private?

In fairness to virtually every practising catholic that I know, they aren't in the slightest interested in what consenting people do in private. They form their own opinion in relation to sex and morality independent of official church teaching.

Obviously there are more hardline cases, but in my experience the average Irish catholic are moderate in their views.
Some might describe this as a la carte catholics, but I personally think it is a positive outlook.

Bannasidhe

recedite wrote: »

At least they won't have to sit around on a cloud plucking harp strings and eating philadelphia cheese. And they'll have the drunks for company.

The drunks have the option of getting sober...

smacl

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are Catholic people so interested in what consenting people do in private?

As per the previous post, I don't think most Irish Catholics are any more. It is the hierarchy of priests, bishops etc... along with a few hard-line fundies that are totally obsessed with fornication, masturbation, homosexual intercourse and of course grindr for the younger generation in training. Committing to a lifetime of celibacy will do that to you I guess.

Guy:Incognito

eagle eye wrote: »

What about a drunk, adulterer and all the rest of those he said will go to hell?

This is just going around and around.

Those things are choices. People can choose to start and stop them. That's not the same as being gay.

People dont wake up in the morning and go " i dont want to go to hell, think I'll just be straight. That's that sorted so"

Guy:Incognito

splinter65 wrote: »

No, there’s no hypocrisy. They live very rigid lives. That’s their choice though. It’s not for me or you to tell them what to do.
Google Mennonites there for a bit of background to this type of thing.

Israel Folau doesn't conform 100% to every word in the bible, as has been shown. I doubt there are many that do . Ergo , hypocrites.

eagle eye

Guy:Incognito wrote:

This is just going around and around.

Those things are choices. People can choose to start and stop them. That's not the same as being gay.

I understand that. Religion sees homosexual activity between men as sin.
Whether you or I like it that is their opinion.

Guy:Incognito wrote:

People dont wake up in the morning and go " i dont want to go to hell, think I'll just be straight. That's that sorted so"

Who are you preaching to here? I don't disagree with you.
Our disagreement is over my belief that people are entitled to their opinion and entitled to air their opinions in public.
I don't agree that what Folau is hate speech either. It's his belief that gay people along with many others are committing sin and he is askingb all those people to repent.
I don't see hate speech there.
If he was saying that gay people should be put down, or separated from heterosexual people then that would be hate speech but he didn't say anything like that. All he did was make a religious plea to all those he considers to be sinners.
I don't agree with him but I don't see any issue with what he did either.

splinter65

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You can be sent to hell even if you don't deserve it?

You’ll go to hell if you die in sin.

[Deleted User]

eagle eye wrote: »

I understand that. Religion sees homosexual activity between men as sin.
Whether you or I like it that is their opinion.

Good news for lesbians then.

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't agree that what Folau is hate speech either. It's his belief that gay people along with many others are committing sin and he is askingb all those people to repent.
I don't see hate speech there.

It's hate speech because he is saying that being gay is wrong and sinful
Not homosexual acts, being gay.

eagle eye wrote: »

If he was saying that gay people should be put down, or separated from heterosexual people then that would be hate speech but he didn't say anything like that.

Again, would saying that being gay is harmful to a person count as hate speech?

splinter65

King Mob wrote: »

Good news for lesbians then.

It's hate speech because he is saying that being gay is wrong and sinful
Not homosexual acts, being gay.

Again, would saying that being gay is harmful to a person count as hate speech?

What is hate speech though? Who gets to decide what is hate speech and what is just an opinion?
That’s the big problem for people who cry “hate speech” every time somebody else says something they disagree with.
Who exactly gets to decide what is hate speech?
What do you think about this yourself?

splinter65

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Israel Folau doesn't conform 100% to every word in the bible, as has been shown. I doubt there are many that do . Ergo , hypocrites.

What he’d say to that is that he’s TRYING to, but he too is a sinner, but trying not to be. He’s only a man, prone to failure.
To him, gay men going to gay nightclubs to look for other gay men to “fornicate” with are not even trying not to sin. So they’re going to Hell.
It’s not the same, really, as hypocrisy.

[Deleted User]

splinter65 wrote: »

What is hate speech though? Who gets to decide what is hate speech and what is just an opinion?
That’s the big problem for people who cry “hate speech” every time somebody else says something they disagree with.
Who exactly gets to decide what is hate speech?

None of this actually addresses my question or my point.
Kinda seems like deflection.

splinter65 wrote: »

What do you think about this yourself?

I think that it is an example of hate speech.

What do you think it is?

Again, would saying that being gay is harmful to a person count as hate speech?