BE Services to Go-Ahead and Resulting Fleet Changes

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

GAI are only getting 10 buses from BE, initially suggested to be LDs from my contact in the NTA, however he recently indicated this may change to 10 LFs transferring instead. No SCs are to transfer are all services by GAI are to be low floor wheelchair accessible hence either the LDs or LFs.

It's been a while since I saw the publication but the publication did say most definitely they would be getting 2012 SCs from us (this sticks because we like these buses and we were slightly giving out about giving them to Go-Ahead)

And they would be getting some LDs and LFs from us also

I most definitely saw this in an official document, just trying to recall where I saw this. I could've been online but I think for some reason it was in one of the documents issued by the company to staff, a bit like the one above.

Just an update on this, I'm told that it is indeed the LFs which are transferring (13 now instead of 10) to GA with the rest of their fleet being the new build. Surprisingly LF313 and 314 are in the process of transferring to GA despite BE having a fleet shortage and the Kildare routes not due to start until August at least.

KSL will be pleased to hear no SCs are transferring and their will be a few less VDLs on the books.

Have it on good stead the new low entry coach has a 320hp engine.
The B8RLE is a crossover chassis that can be set up for a city bus with normal city bus suspension and tyres, smaller power unit etc or can be produced with coach tyres and beefed up drivetrain to handle intercity coach work.
A lot of these things have been built in left hand drive, been on them on holidays in Italy and Spain along the coastlines.
As far as i know these will be low entry coaches with no standing, all seated and a permanent wheelchair space!!......diffinitely different and sounds like the Plaxton low entry thing Stagecoach have. Not an ounce of luggage space on them tho.

Irish Busman wrote: »

Have it on good stead the new low entry coach has a 320hp engine.
The B8RLE is a crossover chassis that can be set up for a city bus with normal city bus suspension and tyres, smaller power unit etc or can be produced with coach tyres and beefed up drivetrain to handle intercity coach work.
A lot of these things have been built in left hand drive, been on them on holidays in Italy and Spain along the coastlines.
As far as i know these will be low entry coaches with no standing, all seated and a permanent wheelchair space!!......diffinitely different and sounds like the Plaxton low entry thing Stagecoach have. Not an ounce of luggage space on them tho.

Indeed it will be a 320hp engine, I posted the specs in post 52.

Yep, see that now.
The new unit will be 13.5m on 2 axles and will be based on SB3, not SB5. Sunsun haven't produced a LE version of SB5 to date.
Livery expected to be TFI blue for both BE and GA.
AFAIK BE fleet engineers working with NTA on vehicle development project.

Irish Busman wrote: »

Yep, see that now.
The new unit will be 13.5m on 2 axles and will be based on SB3, not SB5. Sunsun haven't produced a LE version of SB5 to date.
Livery expected to be TFI blue for both BE and GA.
AFAIK BE fleet engineers working with NTA on vehicle development project.

It will be interesting to see if BE kick up the same fuss about corporate identity as DB did altough I do believe that the hybrids will be delivered in TFI livery.

Doubt it very much. So far the Waterford Streetlites have the TFI blue livery and the next batch of Streetlites coming in for town services will be in the same blue TFI livery as well.
The Sunsuns will be in blue TFI so the next batch of VWD400's up in Ballymena are likely to be the last time we will ever see a red/white BE livery.
Sad but that's the reality, BE as a brand identity is dead.
It's barely visible on Expressway livery and with this new TFI horror, the only reference to BE will be the 'Operated by' logo on the nearside the same as the Waterford buses.
I don't believe there's any real support in BE management to fight for their traditional livery but it really makes you wonder how a company can survive without an identity.
The funniest thing is how Cork will react when the blue Dublin colour replaces the red and white Cork colours on their buses.....maybe the Rebels will rise and mutiny the NTA lol

Irish Busman wrote: »

Yep, see that now.
The new unit will be 13.5m on 2 axles and will be based on SB3, not SB5. Sunsun haven't produced a LE version of SB5 to date.
Livery expected to be TFI blue for both BE and GA.
AFAIK BE fleet engineers working with NTA on vehicle development project.

They havn't made any version of the SB5 to date because it has not existed LE or otherwise up to now.

There is a bit of uncertainty on both other points, some are suggesting 12.2m including two prominent sources, one of which is Route One who are considered the top when it comes to the industry information, they quoted Volvo Bus UKs Commercial Sales Director:-

Although the first batch of SB5s will be two-axle vehicles, the chassis layout is flexible and we could offer the product in tri-axle layout if a customer wished,” says Commercial Sales Director Phil Owen. “It’s possible to add coach elements to a bus body up to a point, but this is a coach built on a low-entry chassis.”

Even Buses Magazine has picked up on the SB5 comparing to the old Bedfords:-

Plaxton hopes to conclude at least two other orders for this model, its first double deck coach in nearly 30 years.

It also bid to supply the Panter LE on two-axle B8RLEs to Bus Éireann, as did Wrightbus with a modified Eclipse 3 body, but that order for 52 vehicles has gone instead to Sunsundegui with a body it calls the SB5, a designation many Buses readers might associate more readily with a rather basic Bedford of 50 years ago.

One thing is for certain, if it is 13.5m on two axles turning will be a bitch.

But another thing to consider is, this build required a new prototype body, why would a prototype be required for an already existing SB3? BE themselves said there was a prototype developed in association with their engineers and Volvo/Sunsndegui which was based on the SB3, so one assumes this and the two sources quoted above are correct and the SB5 is a new model based on the SB3.

Irish Busman wrote: »

I don't believe there's any real support in BE management to fight for their traditional livery but it really makes you wonder how a company can survive without an identity.

Well in London the bus companies have no problem with a common identity. Why would they need any particular identity to survive? Accepting the new livery may be seen as progress towards a uniformed service, something perhaps DB could learn to understand.

It's interesting to note that BEs livery is not registered (unlike DB) with the exception of Expressway, only their logo is.

Also to note is that thus far the NTA have not registered the TFI liveries either.

ax586

One of the tri-axles was in ballymount this afternoon

Yer Da sells Avon

GM228 wrote: »

Well in London the bus companies have no problem with a common identity. Why would they need any particular identity to survive? Accepting the new livery may be seen as progress towards a uniformed service, something perhaps DB could learn to understand.

Dublin Bus should accept a new livery, but maybe not the current TFI mess. They should work with the NTA (and the other bus companies) to design something more aesthetically pleasing.

The problem I see at this moment in time with DB taking an NTA livery is that as the NTA don't have their own proper website with all DB/GAI services, their own social media page and their own complaints department for dealing with complaints regarding bus services not just saying it's a matter for the operator there would be confusion.

There's no confusion in London at all as everything goes through TFL and not individual bus operators whereas here all queries and information is still provided by the individual bus operators as the NTA still don't have the resources to make everything go through them.

I think it's confusing and unessecary having all buses in the country in the same livery. I think it should at least be the case that regional and city buses should be in different liveries I haven't come across anywhere in the world where regional and city buses are in the same livery.

A simple distinction would be yellow for town/city which would include all DB and GAI services in Dublin, BE city and town services in the likes of Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Navan, Balbriggan and any new towns that the NTA put a tender out for such as Kilkenny and white for regional PSO services such as all other BE PSO services, GAI Kildare routes and stuff like the 139 and the stuff run by the likes of Whartons and M+A coaches.

punisher5112

Most no nothing of the change and to be honest this whole silly game is costing the tax payer more money.

I would be happy to stand corrected but I know it's a mess.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Most no nothing of the change and to be honest this whole silly game is costing the tax payer more money.

I would be happy to stand corrected but I know it's a mess.

To be fair there very little different between that meets the eye of the public. The buses are in a livery that from the front at least looks the same to general public other than that the buses are the exact same other than the fact some are single deckers, some have a different moquette on the seats and the drivers are wearing a different uniform.

The things that passengers actually notice such as fares are all the same. I'd say if you threw 46a on the front of a GAI SG few would bat an eyelid even though that's still a DB route.

Okay, hopefully below will clear a few things up -

Sunsundegui run three models:
SC7 (BE's VE) is a 3.7m height high end touring coach
SC5 is a 3.5m height mid range general use coach
SB3 is their inter-urban bus

If you google Sunsundegui SB3, the first two pics that show up (ones green, tothers white) are the same as the bus NTA are protoyping with BE.
AFAIK the prototyping element is to do with access for a wheelchair through the entrance door which means they're unlikely to have those big centre doors you can see in the white bus on google.
As its a low entry I'm told the NTA want ramp entry and a permanent wheelchair space but the longer 13.5m length is needed to retain some decent level of capacity. These things are likely going to replace existing coaches so imagine BE are keen to retain something close to the same capacity. Can only imagine the difficulty in having a split level floor and a large space for a wheelchair brings, in trying to hold capacity at an acceptable level. Can't see a 12.2m length cutting the mustard on capacity in that kind of arrangement. Assume the prototype is to sort any build issues out ahead of the main clatter. Makes sense and not uncommon with a new concept vehicle.
On the turning with a 13.5m length, it's not so much about the length but the steering lock and wheelbase. If the wheelbase is short and the steering lock at full it will turn on a sixpence but will clear everything out of its way with the tailswing and front overhang.
Likewise if the wheelbase is massive with a foot long of overhang front and rear, it probably wouldn't meet the regulatory turning circle requirements. So we can only assume between Volvo, Sunsundegui, NTA, BE/GAI engineers they will have something that will turn within regs and with a reasonably acceptable tailswing. Time will tell I guess.

On the London livery, the red London bus is an iconic symbol that took decades back in the last century to become synonymous with London. You don't just paint a few buses the same colour and create a globally recognizable brand image overnight. And when I see numerous versions of Transport for Ireland branding appearing on Irish buses over the last number of years, that's hardly conducive to developing a single recognizable brand.
In all the years the old CIE tried to have a single livery I don't think they ever achieved it. I recall as a kid there were buses roaming around in blue and cream, rusty orange and the dual green of the Bombardiers all operating together at the one time, even though they were from different eras of the company, when they attempted to try to create that single identity. What the NTA seem to keep doing is making changes to their design whihc is the worst thing you can do.

Yer Da Sells Avon (hilarious tag) - agree totally, not sure how much of our hard earned cash the NTA paid to get that livery designed but surely they could have come up with something a bit more modern, creative and eyecatching. I do remember they got some very fancy booklets printed up asking the public to pick one of a selection......and then none of them were chosen. From memory I think they were all pretty horrendous anyway!
There are some really modern liveries in the UK and Europe that NTA could take a lesson or two from. One I particularly like is the bright red/ dark grey R-Net Connexion livery in Holland. Instantly recognizable because they have applied the same principle arrangement across their fleet, whether single or double decks. Everyone has a personal taste in colours of course, so ye'll never be able to satisfy everyone.

On the single livery or operator livery, personally I think the regulator should be the regulator and let individual operators retain their identities. There are plenty of examples across Europe of where a section of the vehicle is branded with the relevant local/regional/national transport authorities identity but the remainder of the bus or coach retains the general livery of the operating company.

Have to agree with punisher in terms of what it has cost and must be costing the state to do this rebranding exercise across the bus fleet. Surely, being the small state we are, we'd be better off putting more buses on the road to get people from A to B. I just don't get the need for such a massive rebranding cost at this time. And I apply that to both An Post and Aer Lingus as well who have recently spent a sack load of cash on rebranding - I could understand it if it was like Stena Line taking over Sealink - gradual changes to branding and overall livery as the ownership changed over the years - Sealink became Sealink British Ferries - then became Sealink Stena Line - then became Stena Sealing Line - then they dropped the Sealink name altogether. Why did they go through that - because ultimately Stena Line wanted to bring their UK fleet into line with their European brand and dispense with the Sealink brand. But the Sealink name was iconic in UK and a huge risk to just drop it overnight. Sealink was a fine example of iconic branding - descriptive to the point, simple plain bold text and vivid white on navy. Shame it was ultimately buried at sea forever!

One curiosity that Stephen refers to on the TFI livery is that while they might be instantly recognisable from the front, being blue and yellow there's not one TFI or operator brand on the front of the bus as it approaches the bus stop. Well except for the Wrights logo!!
I also noticed in passing recently that Citylinks colours are also blue....and yellow. Aircoach, also blue, are urgently in need of a splash of yellow somewhere on their coaches or no one will be able to see them coming down the road......ahem ahem!! lol

First new Volvo low floor coaches for BE (VB class) and GAI side by side.

10734891_b95abde6c3cad86146051f1d10f0a7ae.jpg?Expires=1562692782&Signature=iV0jEm8uHNs8GefUdYpkuqUHbFsE1z4Bd9ibxri-y~6Pq-XtdrWxZOdGmyBMwJ-bLOz8OCpF0fa-bYoBi8Y-s2T3mrAX4ajXrwtjtOOoeF-46uDAMKffXzLOm5gfwtwcBpDZnBTP38MguI~5SCbIZkE6j2WlkmDYcAcDjya~gA-i7bfSdnl6PJa-dMcwM~nCfdxjZNQ~m9MmJUStOomujyTcur-JRvptPG5DFdDmy0GMW~IR7AOMSAdwCZSztEAwMtunl6ZfdLNPW8MFtv~ehcziCesUoz5zXTLSnFlUgR-o7yF2HkBKAOH5Rj2ACB7nKxgR3COqQadBhUtcwQCUmQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

Turns out they are indeed SB3.

Tomrota

Just noticed this thread. So does anyone know for sure what buses they’ll be using for the 126 route once go-ahead takes over? Will they still all be gigantic coaches with unnecessarily large cargo holds with no wheelchair access and a stairs or will they be buses?

Tomrota

Tomrota wrote: »

Just noticed this thread. So does anyone know for sure what buses they’ll be using for the 126 route once go-ahead takes over? Will they still all be gigantic coaches with unnecessarily large cargo holds with no wheelchair access and a stairs or will they be buses?

Judging by the allocations they've made to their Dublin routes wouldn't surprise me if it was a mixture of the two.

devnull

Talk of it happening September / October now.

devnull wrote: »

Talk of it happening September / October now.

Really have they found the drivers yet. Is the Naas depot complete or nearing completion.

Tomrota, the hint is in the picture......these new buses are for both Go-Ahead and Bus Eireann, so you can expect some of these on the Kildare routes that Go-Ahead are taking over.
On the double deck coaches, some of the Bus Eireann LF's are soon to be transferred over to GoAhead for Kildare routes. They are being repainted into the same colour as the ones in the picture above. If you're passing by Daf on the N7 you can see some of them inside the gates in blue NTA paint scheme. Much prefer the BE livery.
So definitely a mixture of the two on GAI's Kildare services whenever they take over.
Not sure why you think they have no wheelchair access! All BE fleet they've bought since around 2007 are wheelchair accessible. On the LF, the wheelchair space is inside the centre door. They have to remove four seats and the plinth they are sitting on to uncover the wheelchair space so it's a prebooked service.
I think BE leave the seats and plinth out on some of them working routes where they have regular wheelchair passengers.

Irish Busman wrote: »

All BE fleet they've bought since around 2007 are wheelchair accessible. On the LF, the wheelchair space is inside the centre door. They have to remove four seats and the plinth they are sitting on to uncover the wheelchair space so it's a prebooked service.
I think BE leave the seats and plinth out on some of them working routes where they have regular wheelchair passengers.

I think the OP may gap have been referring to the new buses are fully wheelchair accessible on a turn up and go basis just like DB as with the current coaches used have to be booked 24 hours in advance just like with Irish Rail. While you're technically not incorrect wheelchair users can use these service but it's not exactly convenient for them is it?

I understand these ones won't quite be as straightforward as DB or BE citybuses because of their speed and certification, so likely the wheelchair will have to be restrained in any event. Be interesting for the passengers waiting on the bus while the driver sorts all that out at the bus stop.....tick tock....:)

Irish Busman wrote: »

I understand these ones won't quite be as straightforward as DB or BE citybuses because of their speed and certification, so likely the wheelchair will have to be restrained in any event. Be interesting for the passengers waiting on the bus while the driver sorts all that out at the bus stop.....tick tock....:)

Not sure but perhaps the wheelchair user themselves may be able to strap themselves in provided they have use of their upper body. Even if the driver has to strap them in it will be a significant improvement compared to the current situation where a lift has to be used.

devnull

Having seen the inside of these vehicles I am very disappointed in them. I was worried from day one when it was reported they are going to build the vehicles on a bus chassis, but it literally looks like a fairly old fashioned bus that has had luggage racks added to it. It looks nothing like a coach from the inside the colour scheme inside is awful and the interior style is similar to a vehicle from the late 90s.

The ultimate in built to a price vehicles, it literally looks like they've ripped a body off a highline B8R coach chassis and put it on a B8RLE bus chassis with as little change as possible and it simply doesn't work. I mean, the lugagge racks are so much of an afterthought, that they are not above the windows, they are actually in line with the top 1/4 of the windows or so! It feels like a bus that has had them retrofitted but was not designed for them.

The only good thing is that there is better wheelchair access and the NTA livery doesn't look that bad on them, but everything inside just screams built to a price and makes the much criticsed LC look like a modern vehicle!

Devnull, when you say the luggage racks are not over the window but in line with the top 1/4 of it, i take it you mean the overhead parcel shelf on a coach?
if they were up above the windows would they not be practically impossible to reach on a low entry platform? I remember seeing inside Stagecoaches 14.6m Plaxton low entry triaxle where they left two overhead lockers over the wheelarches, but you'd need to bring a step ladder or stand on the seats to get anywhere near them. Assume they only use them for electrics or something.
One thing you do lose with a low entry platform is all of the traditional underfloor coach luggage bays, so can only assume they've had to use as much internal space as possible to restore some space for luggage or bags et al. Sounds like substance over style but then again they are buses for regional or commuter public transport and not luxury coaches for touring.
Ironically both the Stagecoach 14.6m and this Sunsun are based on bodies designed for B8R and reengineered to fit on the B8RLE chassis. The rear end is identical in both cases. The front end is the LE axle unit to allow wheelchair ramp access, which is what NTA are trying to achieve.
Apart from Class I citybuses where accessibility is relatively easy with rear facing, free standing wheelchair in an operation at low speeds, it's a different ball game when it comes to higher speed outer urban Class II and worse for all seated Class III bus and coaches. With the restraint system for the wheelchair and the belting system for the wheelchair passenger, for safety at higher operating speeds, it will never be as simple or easy as roll on roll off citybuses unless some genius designs a fully automated retention system. There is one that clamps the wheelchair under pressure but its only certified for Class I buses.
I hope the interior doesn't have the star spangly seattrim of the Streetlites, cut the eyes out of you. I believe they NTA take a different line on seat trims than the BE traditional leather and moquette combo. AFAIK the NTA's take is similar to Ryanair.....no frills, no fancies, its a public transport bus to get you from A-B. In many ways, thats probably what most people want rather than wasting public money on a full blooded coach for commuter work.
To me these units will be no more than a modern day VR or SR with a low entry platform. Neither designed to have the wow factor becuase they were buses with basic coach styling. Like the VR/SR these will be hammered within a few years compared to a proper coach. But then there are no proper coaches built in low entry and that just doesn't tick the box for NTA.
Devnull any pictures of them inside when you saw them? Are they on the ground here yet?

There are pictures here

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/irishtransport/viewtopic.php?p=105285#p105285

devnull

Irish Busman wrote: »

Devnull, when you say the luggage racks are not over the window but in line with the top 1/4 of it, i take it you mean the overhead parcel shelf on a coach?

Yeah, that's what I am talking about - they look absolutely dreadful from the photos I've seen of them from my source, whilst the way that Plaxton do it has it's flaws as you've stated, they've at least tried hard to make it look modern and like it isn't a body that has been took from a high line coach chassis onto a low line bus chassis. The way these have been done is truly shocking.

Ironically both the Stagecoach 14.6m and this Sunsun are based on bodies designed for B8R and reengineered to fit on the B8RLE chassis. The rear end is identical in both cases. The front end is the LE axle unit to allow wheelchair ramp access, which is what NTA are trying to achieve.

I've seen an SB3 elsewhere in the world and they're not great vehicles, but on a high line chassis they look fine, nothing special and a basic coach, but the lower floor version is appalling. It looks like one of the cheapest conversions of a body from one chassis to another that I've ever seen, no effort went into them at all it seems.

Devnull any pictures of them inside when you saw them? Are they on the ground here yet?

Just saw some other ones on another forum:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/irishtransport/fleet-allocation-list-from-10th-may-2019-t12475-s570.html#p105285

LE for Comparison:
https://www.alexander-dennis.com/products/plaxton-coaches/panther-le/

LE isn't perfect but it looks like Plaxton have made more of an effort to make it look nice, a bit airy and not claustrophobic.