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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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ofcork

That millerd st is very narrow could they even get a crane down there street supposed to be closed for a year.

snotboogie

Couple of interesting tweets over the last few days:
Looks like the 10th Crane is going up next week:
https://twitter.com/corkcranecount/status/1117006628417617920?s=21

WTF tweet in relation to the event centre from FG:
https://twitter.com/vote1oleary/status/1116688555454226433?s=21

Glenveagh applying for 274 apts on the Ursuline Convent site:

http://ursulinegardensshd.ie/

Anteayer

Markcheese wrote: »

A tidal barrier isn't simple, and not without issues, (or advantages either),
All The Quay walls could do with a serious upgrade anyway, but I'm a bit wary of the OPW s, all singing all dancing, multi billion, multi decade project, to stop once in 5 year or 1 in 10 year floods of the city centre, (and I think this only handles tidal flooding not river flooding on the western end of the cities...

Wouldn't it be simple to insist that all buildings in at risk areas need flood barriers on doors, and non return valves on drainage pipes...

The issue is the the OPW plan is too simple too and could potentially be quite ugly if it doesn't work out well.

The quay walls aren't generally in great shape and only a subset of them is very historic. Most of them are in disrepair, but I think they should be restored as sympathetically as possible to the quaysides.

There's a lot could be done by improving river management at both ends and ensuring flood planes are enhanced.

My concern with that project is that it won't future proof the city centre and it only deals with flooding in existing trouble spots while we're are likely to be expanding the city further down the quays into the docklands.

If you're going to prepare for sea level rises we would want to be building tasteful looking dykes right the way down the marina and into the harbour in the areas to be turned into new parts or the city. That can be done by just enhancing what's already there and integration into parkland.

I'm also a bit concerned they the OPW plan doesn't stack up from a hydrological point of view. A lot of the city centre flooding is caused by water penetrating through all sorts of routes other than the walls as the city is basically sitting in a reclaimed marsh or river delta. It's a more more complex, more like a Dutch city in some ways.

How is that being prevented? Its a bit like trying to seal a sponge.

I just think the project is too cheap and isn't looking at how the city would develop over the next 50 to 100 years.

Also I'd be wary about overreacting to the last serious floods which were a bit of a freak incident, in large part due to dam management issues. The tidal flooding isn't anywhere near as big an issue as that.

I'd agree a tidal barrier isn't a solution on its own. It's also over simplistic.

I'd like to see a proper hydrological management office setup for the harbour area

There's also a potential for a significant tidal energy project that could be rolled into a dual propose tidal management system btw.

I just don't think this project is being funded to the extent is needed given how serious a flood risk exists in Cork with rising sea levels nor do I think that it's being approached with a big enough vision. It need to be looked at more like the way NL does things, but Ireland's just not very good at that kind of long term strategic infrastructure planning or willingness to commit serious funds to do that kind of scale of engineering. So it'll be a reactive approach and a bandaid, as usual.

MrDerp

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Not sure would that be best utilised with student accommodation

Looks like everything from the north/south Main Street axis West to carrigrogane will be student accommodation. There’s a new CBD emerging in the east of the city centre, and it was one of the pleas by a group campaigning for a south main st Events centre that the core of the city centre would move from historic Cork (and, more importantly, their existing businesses which stood to benefit).

While there’s a certain loss of character, the area is degenerated beyond any likely major retail investment so footfall is to be welcomed in what’s a dark enough corner of town.

The city is dividing into sectors and modernising, which makes sense for scale, and student accommodation is not typically car intensive so it makes sense for city centre living

Beamishh

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Not sure would that be best utilised with student accommodation

It's meters away from the Beamish and Crawford site so why wouldn't it be appropriate? Would bring some much needed footfall to North main Street

Beamishh

It will forever annoy me that the city council (open to correction) insists on scanning files. Why but just ask for a pdf and let the rest of us see a CGI as intended? Seems like a colossal waste of time to have someone scan hard copies of everything

Roger Hassenforder

snotboogie wrote: »

Reading that Echo article the developers seem to have a long uphill battle on their hands with city hall.

Not sure would that be best utilised with student accommodation

Treehelpplease

marno21 wrote: »

Echo article on the new Penrose Quay development

Any pictures?

snotboogie

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/300-student-bed-spaces-planned-for-derelict-North-Main-Street-site--96cadfc6-aad9-4d04-99a3-768548ed1645-ds

Reading that Echo article the developers seem to have a long uphill battle on their hands with city hall.

marno21

Echo article on the new Penrose Quay development

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/New-office-development-proposed-for-Penrose-Quay-c2a9cc57-923f-420b-a450-5abc8823f142-ds

marno21

mire wrote: »

Interesting to see another planning application submitted for the site immediately to the west of Penrose dock. Two buildings, one 6 and one 7 storey facing Penrose quay and one facing Alfred street. Including a cafe on the ground floor facing Alfred street. And two basement levels. As far as I know, this is not JCD

https://planning.corkcity.ie/AppFileRefDetails/1938338/0

Looks to be 7 and 8 stories. Great stuff - ideally located close to the bus and train station

mire

Interesting to see another planning application submitted for the site immediately to the west of Penrose dock. Two buildings, one 6 and one 7 storey facing Penrose quay and one facing Alfred street. Including a cafe on the ground floor facing Alfred street. And two basement levels. As far as I know, this is not JCD

marno21

high horse wrote: »

Any word on the M28? I believe that the judicial review was to be concluded on the 5th of April

Decision in 4-6 weeks as per the NIMBYs.

high horse

Any word on the M28? I believe that the judicial review was to be concluded on the 5th of April

Apogee

Echo wrote:

UP to 300 student bed spaces could be delivered under proposals for an apartment building on a derelict site on North Main Street. The property at 96 North Main Street was bought by City Hall in May of last year. It has been derelict for almost two decades and is considered one of the worst eyesores in the city centre. The council has been approached by developers, Panterlee Ltd, who own the adjoining properties at 92-95 North Main Street with a view to developing the entire site. A report by City Hall chief executive Ann Doherty states that Panterlee Ltd has requested that the council disposes of number 96 to allow the apartments to be built.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/300-student-bed-spaces-planned-for-derelict-North-Main-Street-site--96cadfc6-aad9-4d04-99a3-768548ed1645-ds

[Deleted User]

who_me wrote: »

"Hey, you should move to Cork! Don't bring/buy a car, as we hope to have light rail in 15-20 years' time."

What the recruitment firms will script in a batch emails to highly saught after candidates.

adding

Yours Sincerely

Jonny Recruitment Guy

at the end.

who_me

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland has a problem with not planning to build something until it is already needed, rather than planning/building ahead.
As such no comany wants to be in Cork/Limerick/Waterford and risk stagnation of infrastructural projects

Yeah, considering the lead-times with infrastructural projects in comparison with private housing/office developments, they really do need to pre-empt future needs.

You can't tell someone "Hey, you should move to Cork! Don't bring/buy a car, as we hope to have light rail in 15-20 years' time."

snotboogie

who_me wrote: »

It's surely going to make future policy more and more awkward, with Dublin and its environs overheating, leading to housing shortages, ever-worsening traffic, overcrowding on public transport, spiralling cost of living.

And in much of the rest of the country, you have relative stagnation.

To some extent what they can do is limited, given it's private investment that's needed. And the bigger Dublin becomes, the more attractive it is as a target for recruitment and investment, making it even bigger and more attractive.. But they certainly could look to push on with transport and infrastructural improvements. And at some point the cost-of-living differences between Dublin and other cities should help push some to move to reduce costs.

In fairness, despite my frustrations with the many stalled projects, Cork is not doing terribly. I followed this debate on twitter and it was mentioned that if Cork was in the US it would make the top 20 cities in terms of the crane count, beating out cities like Phoenix. I had a quick look myself and if you compare us to New Zealand, probably our closest comparison as a nation (and they are also experiencing a construction boom), Cork isn't doing that badly for a city with 210k:

Auckland 90 pop 1.6 million
Christchurch 22 pop 400k
Queenstown 10 pop 15k
Wellington 8 pop 420k
Tauranga 6 pop 140k
Dunedin 2 pop 120k
Hamilton 2 pop 240k

My frustration lies with how much better we could be doing rather than how badly we are doing.

[Deleted User]

who_me wrote: »

It's surely going to make future policy more and more awkward, with Dublin and its environs overheating, leading to housing shortages, ever-worsening traffic, overcrowding on public transport, spiralling cost of living.

And in much of the rest of the country, you have relative stagnation.

To some extent what they can do is limited, given it's private investment that's needed. And the bigger Dublin becomes, the more attractive it is as a target for recruitment and investment, making it even bigger and more attractive.. But they certainly could look to push on with transport and infrastructural improvements. And at some point the cost-of-living differences between Dublin and other cities should help push some to move to reduce costs.

Ireland has a problem with not planning to build something until it is already needed, rather than planning/building ahead.
As such no comany wants to be in Cork/Limerick/Waterford and risk stagnation of infrastructural projects

who_me

Rhys Essien wrote: »

A very sad reminder of the serious imbalance in the country. This can't be a good thing for the country going forward. I'd like to know why no politicians are highlighting this in the Dail or Seanad.

It's surely going to make future policy more and more awkward, with Dublin and its environs overheating, leading to housing shortages, ever-worsening traffic, overcrowding on public transport, spiralling cost of living.

And in much of the rest of the country, you have relative stagnation.

To some extent what they can do is limited, given it's private investment that's needed. And the bigger Dublin becomes, the more attractive it is as a target for recruitment and investment, making it even bigger and more attractive.. But they certainly could look to push on with transport and infrastructural improvements. And at some point the cost-of-living differences between Dublin and other cities should help push some to move to reduce costs.

cgcsb

In Ireland, or rather in Irish journalism, there's a really weird nomenclature around the words 'rural' and 'urban', that doesn't exist in the rest of the english speaking world. Recently in the papers there were a few articles about 'rural towns', an Italian colleague of mine asked me to explain what this means, and to be honest I could not. I'm not confident that the people who write these things understand them either. It's one of those cases of undefined informal and non specific language making it's way into formal settings such as newspaper articles. Irish politicians also claim to represent 'Rural Ireland', despite their constituencies being home to quite large urban areas.

Perhaps if we look at other countries that are effectively city-states, e.g. Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Finland, the Baltics, Czechia etc and see how they define these things, but unfortunately I've no knowledge of these languages.

kub

snotboogie wrote: »

If anybody has an account for the Sunday Business Post I’d love to know how they count the “rural” cranes

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/cranewatch-highlights-dublin-rural-divide-441101

Did the writer actually say the words rural cranes ?

If so that is some guy or girl who has only traveled as far as Kildare and thinks the rest of this country is rolling countryside.

Isn't that so innocent ?

snotboogie

Shedite27 wrote: »

What's the count?

They gave 123 for Dublin, 7 for Cork and 2 for Limerick and Galway each. They got the Cork count wrong, there are 9 in the city and 1 in the county that I know of. I think there are a few other cranes dotted around the country too.

Shedite27

Rhys Essien wrote: »

A very sad reminder of the serious imbalance in the country. This can't be a good thing for the country going forward. I'd like to know why no politicians are highlighting this in the Dail or Seanad.

What's the count?

Rhys Essien

snotboogie wrote: »

If anybody has an account for the Sunday Business Post I’d love to know how they count the “rural” cranes

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/cranewatch-highlights-dublin-rural-divide-441101

A very sad reminder of the serious imbalance in the country. This can't be a good thing for the country going forward. I'd like to know why no politicians are highlighting this in the Dail or Seanad.

[Deleted User]

ofcork wrote: »

I see Dublin have got planning for the tallest building in the country maybe we might get our one now!

What they have is more An Taisce wankfoolary

ofcork

I see Dublin have got planning for the tallest building in the country maybe we might get our one now!

cantalach

snotboogie wrote: »

If anybody has an account for the Sunday Business Post I’d love to know how they count the “rural” cranes

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/cranewatch-highlights-dublin-rural-divide-441101

Maybe they mean these guys.

snotboogie

If anybody has an account for the Sunday Business Post I’d love to know how they count the “rural” cranes

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/cranewatch-highlights-dublin-rural-divide-441101

Markcheese

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Tidal barrier is an absolute no brainier.

If the tidal barrier has the ability to keep water levels at even mid tide, then it is basically impossible for cork city to flood given that the tide affects all areas in the city centre.

The walls scheme is madness.

A tidal barrier isn't simple, and not without issues, (or advantages either),
All The Quay walls could do with a serious upgrade anyway, but I'm a bit wary of the OPW s, all singing all dancing, multi billion, multi decade project, to stop once in 5 year or 1 in 10 year floods of the city centre, (and I think this only handles tidal flooding not river flooding on the western end of the cities...

Wouldn't it be simple to insist that all buildings in at risk areas need flood barriers on doors, and non return valves on drainage pipes...