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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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Johnboy1951

If they do seize a number of these electric scooter type things, how can the owner be certain they get their own device returned to them?

Do they have individual identifying chassis numbers or such?

antodeco

Im assuming this video is the same double seizure that the story was about a week or 2 ago, and not a different one?

quarryman

So what scooters are people using now, xiaomi 365, Kugoo? What else is out there?

rubadub

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If they do seize a number of these electric scooter type things, how can the owner be certain they get their own device returned to them?

just put a tag/label on

rubadub

cojomo2 wrote: »

The second person he pulls is on an e scooter but its a throttled one that doesn't require a push start, so in both cases they are clear cut MPVs so no surprises here.

The garda did not appear to question if it was push start or not, so if it is legal the surprise is that he did not ask.

I wonder if they could be modified to become push start, if it really is legal.

I thought the monowheel things had to have a user apply force to start it, shifting their weight. Is there some limit on the amount of force required before it becomes legal? Maybe they could be modified so you have to start by rolling down a hill.

KCross

rubadub wrote: »

The garda did not appear to question if it was push start or not, so if it is legal the surprise is that he did not ask.

Seems to me he doesnt think it matters one way or the other and that they will seize any/all of them.

He also said that they plan to do more of it since the law was "recently clarified" so its not like he just decided off his own bat to do it that day. His superiors have obviously given a direction to stop them becoming widespread based on legal advice.

The whole "push start" thing is irrelevant until someone takes a case and makes a judge decide. In the meantime you stand to lose your scooter and pay a release fee.

EDIT: The Garda also asked the guy to produce his licence and insurance within 10 days. As he said, he knows he doesnt have insurance so does that mean he is going to get a conviction and penalty points etc on his licence? Thats going to hurt any car insurance he may have.

beauf

rubadub wrote: »

....Is there some limit on the amount of force required before it becomes legal? Maybe they could be modified so you have to start by rolling down a hill....

You guys are obsessed by how its started. Which makes no sense.

The intent (for bicycles) was if you stop cycling, it stops. Also that its performance is constrained by the limitation of rider.

ongarite

Could we get a seperate thread where we can discuss scooters and what ones are worth buying/mods for them & leave this **** show of a thread for discussion on the endless over and back of MPV/insurance/tax, etc..
It's a massive turn-off for a someone thinking of getting one.

beauf

Most people are interested in both aspects. It would be hard moderators to keep the same issues from cropping up.

Drown it out with lots of scooter bling

https://www.t3.com/features/best-electric-scooters

ED E

ongarite wrote: »

Could we get a seperate thread where we can discuss scooters and what ones are worth buying/mods for them & leave this **** show of a thread for discussion on the endless over and back of MPV/insurance/tax, etc..
It's a massive turn-off for a someone thinking of getting one.

Then somebody sees an active discussion of which is best, thinks oh great we can use them, gets one. Is done. Becomes uninsurable on his/her car too.

The criminal liability of using one of these on road is very significant. That should not be suppressed.

Markcheese

How can you be asked to provide a driving licence for something that no licence category exists? ( I get that they're considered a "non compliant or non legal " mechanically propelled vehicle...)
I also think it's utterly stupid that the Gardaí are being instructed to do this, and not just use their discretion, I dont think é-scooters are causing any major traffic or social problems at the moment,(rather the opposite)

Also a tow truck? For a scooter? Ah come on..

If you're actually scooting an e-scooter is it illegal? (bloody dangerous but maybe not illegal) and if it illegal how would a garda be able to prove it was mechanically propelled rather than mechanically assisted?

Johnboy1951

Markcheese wrote: »

How can you be asked to provide a driving licence for something that no licence category exists? ( I get that they're considered a "non compliant or non legal " mechanically propelled vehicle...)

Yes and when used on the road the 'driver' must produce documents demanded of them by the garda.

The garda is complying with the regulations in asking for them to be produced.

I also think it's utterly stupid that the Gardaí are being instructed to do this, and not just use their discretion, I dont think é-scooters are causing any major traffic or social problems at the moment,(rather the opposite)

Also a tow truck? For a scooter? Ah come on..

If you're actually scooting an e-scooter is it illegal? (bloody dangerous but maybe not illegal) and if it illegal how would a garda be able to prove it was mechanically propelled rather than mechanically assisted?

'think' and 'maybe' do not matter ..... the gardai apply the law as interpreted by their legal advisors, and yes it could be tested in court if someone wishes to go that far.

Markcheese

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes and when used on the road the 'driver' must produce documents demanded of them by the garda.

The garda is complying with the regulations in asking for them to be produced.

'think' and 'maybe' do not matter ..... the gardai apply the law as interpreted by their legal advisors, and yes it could be tested in court if someone wishes to go that far.

Gardaí CAN apply the law as interpreted by their legal advisors, (or more likely as instructed by their senior advisors,
Ireland isn't a zero tolerance state, the gardai turn a blind eye to many things (including the car that was parked in the bike lane half way through the video..), I THINK there'd be a revolution if every minor infraction was chased down and penalised..

ED E

Markcheese wrote: »

Also a tow truck? For a scooter? Ah come on..

AFAIK the Gardai don't run the pound, its outsourced to a towing firm. Their business is towing vehicles so they probably don't have a small van on duty when beckoned.

quarryman

ED E wrote: »

Then somebody sees an active discussion of which is best, thinks oh great we can use them, gets one. Is done. Becomes uninsurable on his/her car too.

ED E wrote: »

The criminal liability of using one of these on road is very significant. That should not be suppressed.

You're like a broken record. Do you honestly think users will "see an active discussion" and treat as the letter of the law to get one.

You've made your point repeatedly - can you just go away now?

Eire Go Brach

ongarite wrote: »

Could we get a seperate thread where we can discuss scooters and what ones are worth buying/mods for them & leave this **** show of a thread for discussion on the endless over and back of MPV/insurance/tax, etc..
It's a massive turn-off for a someone thinking of getting one.

I agree. Maybe a separate thread for the legality. Like the title says this thread is for commuting not legality.
MODS CAN YOU PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS.

Martynet

hey guys, I'm Martin from eride community and Electric Scooter Ireland FB group. You can join us on Whatsapp and Discord, if you want. We are sharing any updates related to law, gardai, seized scooters etc. cheers
Martin
http://eride.ie
http://discord.eride.ie

Martynet

antodeco wrote: »

You can get insurance for one of these elsewhere in Europe, and any insurance offered in Europe is fully valid here. So i can sort that out if needed. If I knew the licence also covered it, then that's another bit that's "legal". Would just be the tax.

Hi, I would be interested in that. Which insurance company would you recommend?

Markcheese

https://youtu.be/CVK3mfOO5hQ

This just popped up on my you tube,
If I've put up the wrong link it's going to be very confusing...
And I just realised I never checked when this was made

beauf

Markcheese wrote: »

https://youtu.be/CVK3mfOO5hQ

This just popped up on my you tube,
If I've put up the wrong link it's going to be very confusing...
And I just realised I never checked when this was made

I'm not sure the point of these videos. If you were stopped for speeding and got off would you infer that its ok?

Markcheese

beauf wrote: »

I'm not sure the point of these videos. If you were stopped for speeding and got off would you infer that its ok?

Well depends,
If I was stopped for doing 60kph in a 50 zone,
And I said oh, I thought it was a 60 zone, followed by I'll just check - yes you're right, sorry to trouble sir....
I'd infer that was okay, (well that time at least)

It shows the garda in a good light, he was interested open and polite...
(as was the Garda when I was last (rightly) pulled over for a traffic offence)..

Martynet

Markcheese wrote: »

https://youtu.be/CVK3mfOO5hQ

This just popped up on my you tube,
If I've put up the wrong link it's going to be very confusing...
And I just realised I never checked when this was made

That's Robbie from eride group. He's riding xiaomi m365 with a seat. Not all gards are like this and some sccoters were siezed and owners had to pay €125.

beauf

Markcheese wrote: »

...
If I was stopped for doing 60kph in a 50 zone,
...
I'd infer that was okay, (well that time at least)....

Really...:rolleyes:

Markcheese

beauf wrote: »

Really...:rolleyes:

Talk about selective quoting,..
But off you go boy... ðŸ˜€

Markcheese

Does anyone remember the old fashioned mopeds that you actually needed to pedal to get started... https://images.app.goo.gl/ypNaauaUU9fWENfJ6

I think they were always classed as 50 cc motorbikes here, other European countries
Classed them as not needing licence tax and insurance, I assume that we're in same territory with push start scooters...

beauf

Well it depends...

ED E

Markcheese wrote: »

Does anyone remember the old fashioned mopeds that you actually needed to pedal to get started... https://images.app.goo.gl/ypNaauaUU9fWENfJ6

I think they were always classed as 50 cc motorbikes here, other European countries
Classed them as not needing licence tax and insurance, I assume that we're in same territory with push start scooters...

An old class of "Low powered cycle" used to exist, 50cc and 24Mph limit.

...Ghost...

Markcheese wrote: »

Does anyone remember the old fashioned mopeds that you actually needed to pedal to get started... https://images.app.goo.gl/ypNaauaUU9fWENfJ6

I think they were always classed as 50 cc motorbikes here, other European countries
Classed them as not needing licence tax and insurance, I assume that we're in same territory with push start scooters...

The main difference between those old "pedal start" mopeds and the likes of the M365, is the M365 requires a push start each time it comes to a stop. The old mopeds once started, could stop and go again under mechanical power alone.

The push start from stop is what the focus is on and there will be no consensus on this, not even after legislation is passed. At least most of us agree that e-scooters should be here to stay, whether we think they are an MPV or not.

beauf

What different does push to start one and push to start every time make.

What is the point (objective) of requiring human assistance.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

What different does push to start one and push to start every time make.

What is the point (objective) of requiring human assistance.

The difference is how people interpret what is and what is not an MPV. One person will say that the requirement to push off from a stand-still makes an e-scooter an assisted device. Another person will argue that non-continuous human effort makes the same e-scooter an MPV.

The confusion is not just among the general public, but with the Gardaí too.

Warning...lots of text below

Slightly off-topic, but relevant personal observation because of the video I see posted above. In my personal experience, I have found Gardaí on motorcycles to be a bit pig-headed and unwilling to listen to anyone they stop. It's like they have had a bad day and have made up their minds before talking to whoever they pull over.

I have been pulled in, or stopped at check-points dozens of times in my motoring life. Three times I was pulled over by a Garda on a bike and the many other times were check-points, or Gardaí in cars. I recall four occasions out of all the times I was stopped, or pulled over where I can say the Garda acted like a complete d1ck. Three of those times were motorcycle Gardaí and each time I was not at fault, or had made a very minor error which received a disproportional response. For anyone interested, I have given my experience below:

1) Driving 50cc moped on primary road. I was aged 17.
Almost no traffic on road. Good weather.
Driving near kerb for cars to overtake.
Pulled over by Garda on bike.
Told to tun off engine. I did.
I removed helmet to be polite. He started to get thick with me then.
Asked if I knew what speed I was doing. I said about 45.
He says I was going over 60.
Told him that I couldn't have been doing more than 48.
He tells me i'ma liar and I was doing at least 60 in a 40 zone. (the road was actually a 50 zone, but I didn't want to say anything to irritate him more).
I told him the bike can't do more than 48 and usually maxes at 45, because it's a moped and I pointed to the engine where a 49cc stamp was. I drove a Gilera DNA which doesn't look like a 50cc, but looking fast does not equal fast.
And where's your tax and insurance then?
Suffice to say he was an absolute bollix and nothing ever came of it, despite him telling me that he would have my licence revoked.

2) Driving a car, stuck behind about 20 cars near a round-about, just before the road gets wider to accommodate cars taking the third exit (which I wanted to do). Behind me, there traffic is building and I see a motorcycle Garda a few cars behind.
Taxi driver behind me aggressively pulls out, crossing over a marked island and onto the other side of the road, proceeding to the roundabout. The driver behind him does the same. To stop myself getting stuck where I was, I pulled out and crossed onto the marked island, but not the other side of the road. After clearing the roundabout, I get pulled in by the motorcycle Garda. Starts spitting abuse at me for reckless endangerment and mostly stuff I couldn't understand thanks to his very strong Kerry accent. Again, nothing happened.

3) I was waved through a checkpoint in company car. Everything was in order. Stopped about a mile after the checkpoint by motorcycle Garda. He said I was being done for failing to stop when instructed to do so. :eek: Asked for my details. I tried to explain that I was waved through....he was having none of it. He wanted me to produce tax and insurance and license. The tax disc was in the window, but he wanted the paper it came on. The car was insured by my employer, so they had a group policy, but he insisted on the paper work. He noted I produced my licence and gave me 10 days to produce the rest and to expect to hear from him again. I returned to the checkpoint and spoke to the Garda who waved me through...who confirmed he waved me through. He told me that a letter from my employer with the fleet policy number would be enough and to show my tax disc at the station. I did this the following evening.

I got a summons a few weeks later for failing to produce tax, insurance or a valid license. I went back to the station to ask about the summons and was told it would be sorted on the day, but I had to attend even though I produced what I was asked to. I had to take a day off work and was totally stressed. A Garda from the station had attended in place of the bollix on a bike. He said that the charge would be thrown out. The Gard explained to the judge that there was a miscommunication. I didn't have to say a word, but the judge chewed into the Gard for wasting court time and dragging citizens before him with no regard for their time. I genuinely felt sorry for the Gard, because he was just a messenger and the muppet responsible didn't have the balls to face the judge himself.

4) Driving my car. Had brother and brother-in-law in car. Ran into traffic and saw the delay was a check-point. I took a left turn into a commercial area to bypass the check-point and get home more quickly. A Garda car lay waiting around the corner and pulled us over. Will never forget the look ion his face when he stopped me. Cat that got the cream. Well, he asked where I was heading...home (input street address). Where was I coming from (cinema)....what film did I see (input movie and time). Why did I not continue straight to (input home address)....I told him because the check-point was causing a tail-back and taking the detour was quicker.
He wasn't impressed and then started asking stupid questions and inferring I was hiding something. He asked for license and insurance. I happened to have my insurance papers in the car because I needed them for proof of address a few days prior and I had my license of course. He said I had to produce my insurance within 10 days....even though I had shown him the papers. It was like he was annoyed because he couldn't do me for anything. I was polite the whole time and after about 5 minutes of his ridiculous sergeant slaughter line of questioning, his colleague had to stop him and have him return to the car.

At all other times, I would have no complaints about any Gardaí who were doing their job properly on our busy streets and roads. That icludes the time I was done for going above the speed limit by 2km/h. Harsh...but that's life.