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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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loyatemu

deezell wrote: »

You're correct, the Drayton uses a variation of the 2 zone backplate pins to accommodate 3 zones, CH1, HW and CH2 on pins 1,2 and 3. As your controller was only 2 zone the backplate was ok, though the wiring was not. You were hoping CH1 and 2 were tied together at the plate. Still, not rocket science, and if you were confident to rearrange backplate wires, you could feed the two valve control wires directly in to 1 and 3, scrapping the wire that goes to the old stats and the returns from it.

any thoughts on why there are 2 live and 2 neutral tied together running into the backplate?

There is a separate wiring junction box in the same cupboard as the valves so I'd imagine the Drayton can be wired up in there, but it would be easier to have it go where the existing controller is (I bought it anyway, couldn't resist the £50 off).

deezell

loyatemu wrote: »

any thoughts on why there are 2 live and 2 neutral tied together running into the backplate?

There is a separate wiring junction box in the same cupboard as the valves so I'd imagine the Drayton can be wired up in there, but it would be easier to have it go where the existing controller is (I bought it anyway, couldn't resist the £50 off).

1. It could be taking power to the boiler, to the valve relays, circulation pump. It's important to keep all the associated devices on the same circuit and MCB breaker, particularly as it may be wired off the ELCB, the earth leakage breaker for wall sockets. Devices with steam and water and vapour can nuisance trip an ELCB. Sending a SL sourced from an ELCB circuit to a device off the ELCB circuit will trip the ELCB, as the device neutral is not returned via the SL source ELCB.

2. Great buy, all you need is the live and neutral that feeds the valves, and the three SLs going to the valve actuator motor live in, usually the brown wire into the actuator. For the CH valves just divert this wire straight to Drayton. For the HW, if you have a cylinder stat, you'll have to connect the Drayton HW terminal via the stat, this is the wire that currently runs from your old controller HW terminal. Have you a cylinder stat? Is it easy to run a wire from the valve cupboard to it?

loyatemu

deezell wrote: »

Have you a cylinder stat? Is it easy to run a wire from the valve cupboard to it?

there is a stat on the cylinder - I assume it's wired back to the relevant valve in the cupboard. I'll probably see if I can find a SEAI registered contractor to install and do the grant claim, might add some TRVs also so I can add some individual rooms to the Drayton system in the future.

AstraMonti

In Tado, is there a way to temporarily turn all the rad valves off together in all rooms instead of going one by one? I have 12 so it's a bit annoying.

deezell

AstraMonti wrote: »

In Tado, is there a way to temporarily turn all the rad valves off together in all rooms instead of going one by one? I have 12 so it's a bit annoying.

You can create an IFTTT applet, with a button on your phone, to perform changes to as many zones as you want. You can trigger this with a button Icon or with an "OK Google" command. You can create Smart home routines on Alexa, with a list of all you chosen zones (TRVs), then assign a command I presume," Alexa, turn down /off TRVs" or something like that. No doubt the other smart home gadgets can do the same, including the smart remote control, "harmony elite", which is discussed here a lot.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057677323&page=194

At the Tado level, you can group TRVs in a single zone, and they all follow the same temperature plan. You could group say all the bedrooms together.

AstraMonti

Yes I had a look at IFTTT but it expects a trigger. I don't want this to be automatic, yet, just a button to turn off all rads when I want. Grouping them all together unfortunately defeats the purpose of having each room separate temp (I think).

deezell

AstraMonti wrote: »

Yes I had a look at IFTTT but it expects a trigger. I don't want this to be automatic, yet, just a button to turn off all rads when I want. Grouping them all together unfortunately defeats the purpose of having each room separate temp (I think).

The trigger can be manual, as i said, it can be a widget or button on your phone home screen, or it can be a voice command via google. I have a few, for boosting zones for the duration of the timer set in tado, (20 mins). I've another which just cancels any manual action on any zone and returns it to tado automatic control. The boost is handy as the geolocation doesn't kick in until you're close to home, and if away for a few days, you might want to turn it on while on the way. Using "OK Google" you can do it hands free while driving, say 30-40 mins from home, just enough time to get the house right if it's been in Away mode for a number of days.

AstraMonti

deezell wrote: »

The trigger can be manual, as i said, it can be a widget or button on your phone home screen, or it can be a voice command via google. I have a few, for boosting zones for the duration of the timer set in tado, (20 mins). I've another which just cancels any manual action on any zone and returns it to tado automatic control. The boost is handy as the geolocation doesn't kick in until you're close to home, and if away for a few days, you might want to turn it on while on the way. Using "OK Google" you can do it hands free while driving, say 30-40 mins from home, just enough time to get the house right if it's been in Away mode for a number of days.

Ok thanks, I am fairly newbie in IFTTT apart from a couple of small applets. How do you create the manual trigger?

deezell

AstraMonti wrote: »

Ok thanks, I am fairly newbie in IFTTT apart from a couple of small applets. How do you create the manual trigger?

https://www.howtogeek.com/220838/how-to-apply-ifttt-recipes-using-the-do-button-for-ios/

AstraMonti

Additional question, can I use sonoff TH10 with the thermostat for the hot water cylinder and through IFTTT (or something else) to trigger the Tado to turn off the boiler when the temp is above x Celcius?

deezell

AstraMonti wrote: »

Additional question, can I use sonoff TH10 with the thermostat for the hot water cylinder and through IFTTT (or something else) to trigger the Tado to turn off the boiler when the temp is above x Celcius?

If you put a Sonoff on the cylinder, this can be wired to directly call the boiler on demand, you just need to wire a switched live from the Sonoff relay in parallel with the SL coming from the CH valve relay (assuming your tado is not instructing the boiler via OpenTherm digital interface). This is all that happens in a valve zoned system, each valve outputs a SL to the boiler, they are all combined. If you CH is not plumbed via a valve, and the boiler is called directly from a SL from the Tado stat, then any call to the boiler will result in the boiler and circulation pump sending water to the rads, not a problem if they are all fitted with (closed) TRVs. Is your HW heated as a consequence of CH, or can it heat on its own? does it currently have a cylinder stat?

AstraMonti

deezell wrote: »

If you put a Sonoff on the cylinder, this can be wired to directly call the boiler on demand, you just need to wire a switched live from the Sonoff relay in parallel with the SL coming from the CH valve relay (assuming your tado is not instructing the boiler via OpenTherm digital interface). This is all that happens in a valve zoned system, each valve outputs a SL to the boiler, they are all combined. If you CH is not plumbed via a valve, and the boiler is called directly from a SL from the Tado stat, then any call to the boiler will result in the boiler and circulation pump sending water to the rads, not a problem if they are all fitted with (closed) TRVs. Is your HW heated as a consequence of CH, or can it heat on its own? does it currently have a cylinder stat?

Thanks very much again. I don't have a valve to turn the HW separately, it heats up with the rads, and that's why I put the tado trvs on all rads so I can just heat the water. There is a cylinder stat at the moment but i think that's internal for the immersion as far as I know and I can't see anything to setup temperature.
If I wire it directly to the boiler, wouldn't Tado turn it on again if it's "within" schedule?

deezell

AstraMonti wrote: »

Thanks very much again. I don't have a valve to turn the HW separately, it heats up with the rads, and that's why I put the tado trvs on all rads so I can just heat the water. There is a cylinder stat at the moment but i think that's internal for the immersion as far as I know and I can't see anything to setup temperature.
If I wire it directly to the boiler, wouldn't Tado turn it on again if it's "within" schedule?

It's likely that's an immersion stat, check do the cables from it go to the power terminal cover of the immersion. Without a valve, HW will always heat when any TRV calls the boiler. You also need to call the boiler without any TRVs coming on. You'll need to connect a switched live from a sonoff to the same SL coming from the Tado. Either will then call the boiler. If you adjust the boiler temperature close to the setting of the cylinder stat, then the cylinder is unlikly to exceed it's set temperature when a TRV call is in progress, as the circulated heated water will likemy be less than the boiler setting while it's passing through radiators. 65-68 is good for the boiler, with 55-60 For the cylinder stat, depending on how hot you like your hot taps. It's a compromise, you don't want to scald anyone using a hand basin, but you might like fairly hot water for dishes etc.
The settings above will ensure that there is at least 10 degrees difference between boiler and cylinder so heat transfer takes place.

AstraMonti

deezell wrote: »

It's likely that's an immersion stat, check do the cables from it go to the power terminal cover of the immersion. Without a valve, HW will always heat when any TRV calls the boiler. You also need to call the boiler without any TRVs coming on. You'll need to connect a switched live from a sonoff to the same SL coming from the Tado. Either will then call the boiler. If you adjust the boiler temperature close to the setting of the cylinder stat, then the cylinder is unlikly to exceed it's set temperature when a TRV call is in progress, as the circulated heated water will likemy be less than the boiler setting while it's passing through radiators. 65-68 is good for the boiler, with 55-60 For the cylinder stat, depending on how hot you like your hot taps. It's a compromise, you don't want to scald anyone using a hand basin, but you might like fairly hot water for dishes etc.
The settings above will ensure that there is at least 10 degrees difference between boiler and cylinder so heat transfer takes place.

Thank you again. On a more practical example, let's say 6 with 7 I have the boiler to kick off. I have all the trvs off and let's say sonoff reads 50 at 6:30 and turns the boiler off. Wouldn't tado turn it back on since it still has 30 minutes left on its schedule?

Waesfjord

deezell wrote: »

So basically you have a 2 zone CH system with standard controls, HW control is not required. Nothing unusual about this, systems with combi boilers and on demand HW require no intervention from the CH stats and timer controller, smart or otherwise. At most, some systems may have HW priority built in, which will delay CH until HW demand is met. From the viewpoint of the stats, it calls for heat, then monitors room temperature, calling off the boiler when set temperature is reached or in the case of smart stats, approached.
Drayton may mistakenly assume you want it's kit to control HW, which you wouldn't, or perhaps it might not match well with the response profile of Heat pump souced hot flow, though this sounds unlikely.
The Drayton controller just substitutes for conventional controllers using a standard baseplate with wiring variations for 1 zone CH, two zone CH + HW, and three zone, 2 CH + HW. I think the confusion arises because standard 2 zone controllers come in two flavours, CH + HW and two CH. You would have the latter, though there is little difference between them technically except perhaps the CH + HW type might have a gravity mode switch, but in normal mode it can be used for two CH. Drayton rightly will advise that their CH plus HW controller can't be used for 2 CH zones, as it only supports one wireless stat. There's nothing to stop you using their kit 3 though, 2 CH plus HW, you simply ignore the HW facility, by leaving it timed permanently off on the app, and by not connecting anything to its HW SL terminal 2 on the the backplate. I can see no reason why this won't work

Thanks deezell. That's what I suspected, couldn't understand why one thermostat would work, other wouldn't as essentially all are providing the same functionality, i.e. signal to receiver when to switch on/off the boiler, wiring from receiver is same as per existing (non-smart) timer.

deezell

AstraMonti wrote: »

Thank you again. On a more practical example, let's say 6 with 7 I have the boiler to kick off. I have all the trvs off and let's say sonoff reads 50 at 6:30 and turns the boiler off. Wouldn't tado turn it back on since it still has 30 minutes left on its schedule?

I think you're misunderstanding how tado works, as you state you have the boiler set to come on 6-7 but the TRVs off. The Tado timing does not control calls to the boiler, the stat schedule does, and a call to the boiler is conditional on there being at least one stat/TRV below its scheduled temperature at that time. The timer of any schedule is only used to make changes to the temperature for a given period.
Typical schedule living zone
24.00 to 07.30, 16°
07.30 to 09.00, 21° (breakfast)
09.00 to 16.00. 18° ( less if empty house(
16.00 to 21.00 21° (kids home, dinner, tv. etc)
21.00 to 23.00 20°
Now these times of themselves don't trigger the boiler, it only fires if the zone is cooler than the scheduled temperature at that time. To schedule the equivalent of 'Off' just set the temperature right down.
In your example you've set a time block from 6 to 7, but to make sure all TRVs are off you'll have to turn them right down, or set them to Off. In this case the boiler wont be called for CH at all, as no TRV has a demand during this time. If the sonoff has called the boiler to heat HW, and at 6.30 the HW reaches target temperature of 50°, the boiler will turn off, UNLESS at least one TRV us not OFF and is below scheduled temperature. Should the boiler fire at the behest of a TRV, heating of HW will resume, though the sonoff is at target. Either the Tado stat or the Sonoff can call the boiler, and there is no interdependence, other than the fact that in your installation, HW always heats regardless of which stat calls the boiler.
Think this through, it's a bit Father Ted tbh, (this one's small, that one's far away), but you'll get it eventually!

AstraMonti

All make sense, thanks very much for the help!

Fwarder

Hi all,

I have one small question regarding Nests and Google home. Can you control the HW through Google home? I know that you can say "Set the temp downstairs to 20C" etc. but I get "I'm sorry, I don't understand" when I ask for HW

Maybe I should ask for "boost on" or something

L1011

As far as I know it doesn't expose the HW mode to any automation. This is probably a sort-of oversight as it is only offered in Europe (and only really used UK/Ireland at that - instant heat combis are the norm on the continent). Non-European model Nests don't support HW at all.

deezell

Fwarder wrote: »

Hi all,

I have one small question regarding Nests and Google home. Can you control the HW through Google home? I know that you can say "Set the temp downstairs to 20C" etc. but I get "I'm sorry, I don't understand" when I ask for HW

Maybe I should ask for "boost on" or something

From what I read there is no 'skill' or API access from alexa or Home for nest HW control, as HW control is only a (little used) feature of the nests sold in UK and Ireland, where we have a lot HW cylinders, not on demand HW. It is possible to access the nest HW control via IFTTT. This Guy has created a webspace Class (whatever that is I hear people say) which is populated with a script from Github to access the Nest HW control via its API. He then creates an IFTTT app to call this class, and then goes on to create an Alexa call to the IFTTT app. You could do something Similar for Home no doubt.
https://github.com/rdiver/nest-php-api-hot-water
http://www.aimlesswandering.uk/web/2017/11/nest-thermostat-hot-water-controlled-by-alexa/

legend99

deezell wrote: »

Typical schedule living zone
24.00 to 07.30, 16°
07.30 to 09.00, 21° (breakfast)
09.00 to 16.00. 18° ( less if empty house(
16.00 to 21.00 21° (kids home, dinner, tv. etc)
21.00 to 23.00 20°

Deezal,
Finally bit the bullet and got around to installing the 3 Stats - including Ground Floor wired for now. I think I will switch the Ground Floor to be wireless (note: this may be a function of forgetting I needed to return the Ext Kit to Amazon and it's too late now!); I will order the Sonoff for the cylinder - if for nothing else I would like to see when it is calling for heat etc as the Tado won't be able to tell me; and I will look to install Tado TRVs in the summer as I don't currently have dumb TRVs and will to drain and shut down system to first do the plumbing side.

Anyway. Aside from install I was wondering what your experience has taught you re zone temps and time slots? We're in a pretty well insulated house - beads pumped in the wall cavities etc and typical living pattern of adults working and kids at school. Just wondering what type of temps and tine slots you have now after experience of using this stuff?

Thanks!!

deezell

This kind of evolved over time.

legend99

deezell wrote: »

This kind of evolved over time.

Is that the living space zone out of curiosity? I must install a screen shot app and I'll post mine then. Bed zones both very similar to each other but living zone obviously different. By definition I assume you have to remember to change if on day off - Bank Holiday tomorrow for example. I must suggest to them that they add something like that - a day off schedule that you can just request to switch to, kind of like asking Monday to re replaced by Sunday on a one off basis - rather than having to edit the entire weekday schedule and then try to remember what it was.

Must order the Sonoff now as well while I remember

deezell

I don't worry too much about it, it seems to ensure comfort around the clock, house is not empty midweek but the drop after morning is there as you don't need "sitting down" temperatures if you're active in or outside, so 19-20 does fine. If everyone is gone, the away schedule takes over. You could probably set just 2 temperatures for 24 hours, sleep and awake, and let away drop it when you're at work.
I've a TRV for the kitchen, which is a cooler corner room, it drops down about 6.30 pm to 18°, then lower after supper, stays like that till before rising. Master bed TRV is suspended at the mo due to the noise at night, I'll put it elsewhere when I change rad valves to TRV type. I dont change schedule in summer, in warm weather, like today, stats don't fall below target except maybe in the waking hour, so very little boiler activity.
Tip, most mobiles take a screenshot by pressing the On and Home buttons together.

legend99

deezell wrote: »

I don't worry too much about it, it seems to ensure comfort around the clock, house is not empty midweek but the drop after morning is there as you don't need "sitting down" temperatures if you're active in or outside, so 19-20 does fine. If everyone is gone, the away schedule takes over. You could probably set just 2 temperatures for 24 hours, sleep and awake, and let away drop it when you're at work.
I've a TRV for the kitchen, which is a cooler corner room, it drops down about 6.30 pm to 18°, then lower after supper, stays like that till before rising. Master bed TRV is suspended at the mo due to the noise at night, I'll put it elsewhere when I change rad valves to TRV type. I dont change schedule in summer, in warm weather, like today, stats don't fall below target except maybe in the waking hour, so very little boiler activity.
Tip, most mobiles take a screenshot by pressing the On and Home buttons together.

Important question so - and a bit late lol! - but do you think it's saving you money?

deezell

legend99 wrote: »

Important question so - and a bit late lol! - but do you think it's saving you money?

My main aim was to have steady round the clock comfort, no extremes and no waste. To that end I'm using the same oil now for vastly superior steady comfort. I burn a good bit of timber in a stove boiler from my own mini forest, so I'm not a slave to OPEC.
Previously it was constant tweaking of timer notches, too cold, too warm etc. When I changed the ageing 64% efficiency boiler for a 93% efficiency condensor, it made sense to go for better control of temperature, so to that end I'm happy to burn the same amount but have the entire house always comfortable.
No doubt I could fully zone with TRVs and ruthlessly cull rooms and time slots in order to pare back oil usage, but I prefer to keep them all comfortable. Prevents damp too.
I have insulation/draught issues that need tweaking, and I need to add solar to the unused third coil of the HW cylinder. It's all DIY, so slowly slowly catchee monkey!

s7ryf3925pivug

Is ember good? Can it be used with alexa? Any better options?

deezell

Penny Huge Clock wrote: »

Is ember good? Can it be used with alexa? Any better options?

In a word, No. Just a remote version of standard EPG controller. Read up on Drayton. Tado, Nest, Hive, Netatmo.

s7ryf3925pivug

deezell wrote: »

In a word, No. Just a remote version of standard EPG controller. Read up on Drayton. Tado, Nest, Hive, Netatmo.

Any summary available of the extra features in those ones?

deezell

Penny Huge Clock wrote: »

Any summary available of the extra features in those ones?

Smart predictive control, infinitely variable time and temperature schedules, geo-location, Smart TRV integration, Open window sensing, OpenTherm connectivity for OT equipped boilers, daily graphical reports, Home and Away mode, HW control, Manual mode with choice of termination method. Echo, Home, google Assistant, Apple Homekit, Smartthings, IFTTT integration.

Different models have some or all of these features, Drayton wiser, Tado and Netatmo have integrated TRV capability, but with third party control (Echo, etc), it's possible to operate different systems with a stored list of commands to the different devices, so say a NEST owner via an Alexa call could turn on Tado TRVs, and instruct the main Nest stat to fire the boiler in order to supply the Heat. Similar has been done by posters here and elsewhere, often using IFTTT and the now obsolete Stringify.
If you have two distinct heating zones and HW, separated by motorised valves, (I suspect you may have a standard EPG style zone controller and are attracted to the plug in Ember as a result?), then the Draton Wiser is currently the best value out there for it's KIT 3 two thermostat plus HW control system.