downcow wrote: » That’s fine I am glad we have brought this nonsense to an end. I am am happy I have been proved correct. You can redefine orange band if you wish but bottom line is that neither of those bands are an Orange band. So I trust going forward we won’t get pedantic to win arguments and try and take what each says in the spirit it is meant. I certainly will
downcow wrote: » You see i have always believed strongly that culture is something that communities hold on to if valuable. I don't believe any gov money should support culture. If a community believe something is worth holding on to then they will. Once gov get involved in promoting certain aspects of culture then i get suspicious that they are steering it. GAA and orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding - although GAA is now getting lots but i don't think that will make it stronger. why should govs be allowed to decide what cultures are important?. Now 'compulsory' is the antithesis of 'culture'. If it is compulsory then it is certainly not culture. Culture is something people choose to participate in. If it needs to be compulsory then obviously most don't value it What you think?
droidman123 wrote: » Why would there be discord?liverpool is not occupied by a foreign country
RobMc59 wrote: » We have Protestant and Catholic cathedrals here in Liverpool with traditional strong ties to Ireland-and never have any discord.http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/exhibitions/orange-lodge/
FrancieBrady wrote: » Ducking what? You have already said that you are wrong and that I was 'pedantically' interpreting your statement. What are you defining as an 'Orange Band' by the way, as I define it as a band attached to and using an Orange lodge. And two bands on that list picked at random are that, I haven't time or indeed the inclination to look at more. Tyrone Ditches Pipe Band and Crown Defenders Flute Band
downcow wrote: » Francie you are still ducking it. You said I was wrong but yet you cannot give me one single example of a orange band receiving funding. No more links. Just the name of a band?
jm08 wrote: » It depends on the culture and its requirements. Bands need instruments (which can be handed down) and a place to meet (which could be in a local hall, school etc). Something like rugby/football needs a pitch, changing facilities, equipment, referee etc. Difficult to flourish without facilities.
BonnieSituation wrote: » I appreciate what you are trying to say, but there's shutting down discourse and then pandering to the willfully ignorant. I'm all for talking through things with anyone but the last few pages have been clear lessons in futility to my mind. Our time is better served outlining the possibility and positivity of a UI not arguing about funding for sectarian organisations.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You made a statement - it was proved to be untrue. You accept that what you said was untrue, yet somehow you are still right and correct???
downcow wrote: » I was pointing out that funding was not required for a culture to flourish.
Topgear on Dave wrote: » If people don't want to learn Irish they can't be forced or press ganged into it. This state has for near 100 years run compulsory irish from the day you start school til leaving cert. We're still arguing here day in day out in English. I think barely anybody has ever said a word to me in Irish since I left school.
Frank Castle wrote: » Never shut down discourse. It is a good thing and should not be ignored or censored. You don't have to agree with people, but ignore them is what leads to the situation we have in the north. Communication isn't always easy and can be frustrating, but don't give up on it. It is better to change the focus of the conservation than to walk away from it
downcow wrote: » Francie I am getting tired of this particular discussion, but if it is a genuine question I will explain again. I was pointing out that funding was not required for a culture to flourish. I made the comment that orange bands don’t receive funding. You lept on this particular part of my post and Google searched to find what you thought was a few orange bands receiving tiny crumbs compared to what some cultures receive. You used this to say, here is Downcow at it again telling lies. I pointed out that your interpretation was rather pedantic, accepted that I did not mean orange culture has never got a penny. But I went on to ask you to give me the name of one Orange band that has received funding (and simply explained that I would read it in the same pedantic way you read my post, to ensure its accuracy) you have now spent the last series of posts putting Google links on but you have yet to name one orange band that recieved funding and yet you say there are loads Now I am very happy to drop the topic as I am tired of this approach, and would much rather we read each other’s posts with an intention of learning something. But if you insist on arguing that my statement was inaccurate then you should post the name of an orange band that as received funding - but i will use your pedantic method of interpreting it to check out if i really lied - and if you are correct my apology awaits
downcow wrote: » Francie and JM08 You are spinning again. You know exactly the point I was making i.e. that massive amounts of funding is going into supporting Irish language in Northern Ireland compared to tiny drops of funding that makes its way to any of the full range of Unionist cultural activities. And i wasn't complaining about that rather i was just pointing out that money invested in a particular culture/hobby does not equate with interest generated I didn’t even start on the millions that are going into GAA, I simply pointed out the millions that are going into Irish language. You can spin it whatever way you wish but the facts are very clear. And as for your attempted pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said (orange bands have received no funding) and then stating that I was wrong - if I take the same pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said, then I was 100% accurate. No orange band did receive any funding - can you clearly demonstrate were one did? Now I am not pedantic and hair splitting and therefore freely admit that mine was a general comment i.e. no funding – meant- practically no funding, and orange bands – meant - the full swathe of loyalist marching bands. But there you are, you choose whichever interpretation you wish, pedantic or general, and I was 100% accurate and correct in my statement. You know debate would get much further and be more productive, if your sole purpose wasn’t to prove others wrong all the time, but if you were actually interested in learning something, and a good start would be learning to humbly accept when you are wrong.
In the academic year 2018/19, over 6,000 children are enrolled in Irish-medium education:43 nurseries (Naoileanna) with over 1,000 pupils 35 primary schools (Bunscoileanna) with over 3,000 pupils 2 second level gaelscoileanna (Gaelcholte) with over 800 pupils 3 Irish language streams (Sruith LGhaeilge) The British Council administers a scheme to recruit Irish language assistants for English-medium schools in Northern Ireland.[20] In 2013, there were 309 entries for A-Level examinations in Irish and 2,078 for GCSE.
FrancieBrady wrote: » What does this mean?
downcow wrote: » Francie, I think we all know why you are ducking and diving such a simple question. You've obviously been searching Google again to come up with these quotes so why not just name one of these mystery "Orange bands" that have received funding And I promise you I will not say funding is not really funding. I will be completely honest in my response to your answer. And I will apologise if that's appropriate . But I warn you again I am going to be as pedantic as you were when I made the original comment
But I warn you again I am going to be as pedantic as you were when I made the original comment
BonnieSituation wrote: » The patience shown despite the many goalposts and intransigence and lies and ignorance is to be commended but let's remember, that's wasted energy. We don't need or want the likes of Downcow's votes or opinions. We don't need to spend energy to compel him or his ilk.
BonnieSituation wrote: » The patience shown despite the many goalposts and intransigence and lies and ignorance is to be commended but let's remember, that's wasted energy. We don't need or want the likes of Downcow's votes or opinions. We don't need to spend energy to compel him or his ilk. I shouldn't have to "sell" a better future to the ignorant or dilute my culture to make sure that loyalists feel the warm fuzzies of being a special people. So do ya know what, I'm not gonna bother. There's a middle ground worth fighting for. They're getting my focus.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You want me to name a band and then you will try to say that 'funding' is not funding really? :rolleyes::D Here is a member of the Orange and Black institutions, William Humphrey DUP, praising the securing of 'funding' for bands he has walked behind. Perhaps the word of an MLA will suffice?
downcow wrote: » I am saying that if I use the same pedantic interpretation as you used to misinterpret me, then no orange bands are receiving funding. If you feel I am wrong then name your band. Simple. At this wrong I will apologise to you
As a member of the Orange and Black institutions — I have been an Orangeman for 30 years this year — I have walked behind bands that have been exemplary in their playing, deportment, discipline and decorum. I pay tribute to those bands. That has been my experience as a North Belfast representative in recent times and as an Orangeman sitting in West Belfast Orange Hall for all those years, as my father, grandfather and great-grandfather did before me. I praise the role of the bands in the community. Other Members touched on that. I pay tribute to the Ulster Scots Community Network for the role that it has played in working with the bands to improve them, secure funding for them, develop them and be a voice for them alongside the Confederation of Ulster Bands. I will return to that organisation in a moment.
Dytalus wrote: » In principal I agree. If the people don't want it, is it even part of the culture anymore? But then you run into the issue of: are people uninterested because it's too difficult, and would it be easier (and therefore more popular) if it got some support? Minority sports are an example (eg, Women's Rugby). There's an argument to be made that women don't want to play rugby, yet I know of many who play tag rugby because there's no similarly sized option for rugby union in a social capacity for them. Is it not reasonable for the government to break that cycle by funding women's rugby clubs so they can expand and improve and offer them the opportunity to become self sustaining? Obviously Women's Rugby (and other similar things) are not the purview of this thread, but it was the first example that sprung to mind to illustrate my point. I think it's important that the government do its best to keep the language alive. The people of Ireland speak English after a concerted effort was made while occupied, by the occupiers, to eradicate Irish culture/language. I think that kind of extenuating circumstances justifies an equally concerted effort to revive that same culture/language. Obviously this becomes a point of contention in NI because the people who identify as British don't want to learn Irish, but I just don't get why it's such a bad idea whe it's already required to learn a foreign language. What difference does it make if it's french or Irish? Surely for people in NI Irish is more relevant and useful?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Are you saying 'Orange bands have received no funding' or that they have?
downcow wrote: » couldn't disagree more. the whole idea of funding culture is quite new. Yes i agree orange halls have got some crumbs in the last few years. but lets set this whole them and us aside. My point is that over the years, decades, centuries, the orange culture received, to all intents and purpose, no funding. To the best of my knowledge, up until the last 30 or so years, the GAA received little or no funding. Both these organisations have flourished and are at the heart of their communities because people value them and value the culture they are continuing. In contrast lots of attempts have been made to keep Irish language to the fore particularly in ROI, and I accept I may be naïve on this, but it is my impression that it is a minority interest. Undoubtedly huge amounts of funding goes into bilingual signs, government paperwork, etc, etc, but I think it would be fair to say that the GAA and the Orange scene receive much more by-in by the public. Another example is the huge amounts of money (lots of it coming from the National Lottery in the UK) is poured into art galleries and theatres, and again they do not have anything like the public by-in as things like music festivals, football supporting, etc etc. my point is not a sectarian or nationalistic one. It is simply that I think culture should be fluid and should follow people’s interests and not be dictated by government money. And thank goodness no matter how government tries to direct culture it seems unable to do so. It just remains unfair that millions of pounds are poured into art galleries when it is a tiny minority interest - thankfully the working masses seem to decide what culture is no matter what the government wants to throw at art galleries or Irish language
downcow wrote: » Francie. I did not change what I said. I was simply being honest and saying that I did not expect it to be interpreted so pedantically. I stand by what you are quoting as being incorrect i.e. “orange bands received no funding”. Now maybe rather than posting a long list of organisations you will just give me the name of one orange band that received funding - that’s not really too difficult for you, is it? And I stand ready to apologise if you achieve it - but I am telling you in advance I am going to employ the same pedantic interpretation as you do when it suits you
downcow wrote: » my point is not a sectarian or nationalistic one. It is simply that I think culture should be fluid and should follow people’s interests and not be dictated by government money. And thank goodness no matter how government tries to direct culture it seems unable to do so. It just remains unfair that millions of pounds are poured into art galleries when it is a tiny minority interest - thankfully the working masses seem to decide what culture is no matter what the government wants to throw at art galleries or Irish language
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