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Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

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downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Edit: 1 thing I will say though is that I think everyone should be getting an even split of funding for promotion of their culture, BUT Ulster Scots should never get funding. My uncle and his wife harp on about being fluent in Ulster Scots. Big deal, its a ****ing accent not a language!

Frank. Your comment reminded me of an email I sent to Stephen Nolan almost 2 years ago when the Irish language funding issue seemed unsolvable. To me it seemed simple, of course Nolan never aired, but here it is full. I’d be interested in people’s thoughts on this as a solution. And of course relevant to a united Ireland thread as the idea would work equally on an all Ireland basis.

I have watched this unfold with despair at the inability to come up with a simple fair agreement. There is a very simple solution to this Irish language/culture debacle. Have a read below and tell me how any fair-minded person could have a problem with this solution.

The parties who intend forming an executive (presumably Sinn Fein and DUP) sit down and agree how much money (total) they wish to spend on promoting culture/language.

Let’s make up a figure for them e.g. £10 million per annum

Then it is a very simple matter to achieve fairness. Let the parties decide what they want to do with a percentage based on the percentage support they have i.e. if Sinn Fein have 35% of the MLAs then they will decide where £3.5 million goes, if the DUP have 36% of MLAs then they will decide where £3.6 million go, if Alliance have 10% of the MLAs then they can decide where £1 million goes, and so on.

It would be entirely up to each party to represent their voters and decide what expression of culture they would like to promote and hence provide the funding for that element - of course there would be checks and balances to ensure money did not go to inappropriate activities, but this is common practice in any funding.

Parties could decide whether the resources they are responsible for went entirely to their traditional vote or alternatively they could decide that some of the resources need to go to support minority cultures e.g. Indian, Lithuanian.

So Sinn Fein, if they wish could give their entire £3.5 million to Irish language, but Alliance party may decide that they want their funding for cultural promotion to go to some of the new minority communities.

This would build on our very diverse cultures and provide support for everything from gay pride to the travelling community, Orangefest two St Patrick’s Day, Irish language to Ulster Scots

Now, how could anyone possibly have a problem with such a fair open transparent system. I would challenge anyone to show me how this would be anything other than scrupulously fair. Even the TUV and People for Profit would be able to guide where the small percentage they were responsible would go.

This overall figure would then be decided each year during the programme for government - £10million, £100 million whatever

I would be interested on you floating this idea.

Of course there is one other even simpler way. And that is how the two little boys divided their Apple i.e. one of them cut the apple and then the other one decides which piece they want.

Fairness is not rocket science

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

eh...so you change what you are saying and then blame us for refuting what you said originally?

Brilliant. As I said...living in a bubble of self righteousness.

2 seconds on Google again brings up another list of funding, including Orange bands.

https://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/community-projects/projects-funded-by-the-agency/

Francie. I did not change what I said. I was simply being honest and saying that I did not expect it to be interpreted so pedantically.
I stand by what you are quoting as being incorrect i.e. “orange bands received no funding”.
Now maybe rather than posting a long list of organisations you will just give me the name of one orange band that received funding - that’s not really too difficult for you, is it?
And I stand ready to apologise if you achieve it - but I am telling you in advance I am going to employ the same pedantic interpretation as you do when it suits you

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Edit: 1 thing I will say though is that I think everyone should be getting an even split of funding for promotion of their culture, BUT Ulster Scots should never get funding. My uncle and his wife harp on about being fluent in Ulster Scots. Big deal, its a ****ing accent not a language!

yes I'm with you on that

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Both sides get plenty of funding. No point pretending we don't when the internet exists.

'A CONTROVERSIAL Stormont grant scheme has pledged more than £104,000 to upgrade Orange halls after applications for the cash were made by other organisations.

Details provided by the Department for Communities has revealed that five Orange halls across the north are set to benefit from the ‘community hall’ scheme after grant applications were made by several groups describing themselves as Ulster Scots, cultural, educational and historical.

In total 90 groups were offered cash through the scheme which had an original budget of £500,000 which has since quadrupled to £1.9m.'

The truth is both cultures need to be supported equally. All this bickering between funding them helps neither culture

When are we going to grow up and start moving forward?

couldn't disagree more. the whole idea of funding culture is quite new.
Yes i agree orange halls have got some crumbs in the last few years. but lets set this whole them and us aside.

My point is that over the years, decades, centuries, the orange culture received, to all intents and purpose, no funding. To the best of my knowledge, up until the last 30 or so years, the GAA received little or no funding.

Both these organisations have flourished and are at the heart of their communities because people value them and value the culture they are continuing.

In contrast lots of attempts have been made to keep Irish language to the fore particularly in ROI, and I accept I may be naïve on this, but it is my impression that it is a minority interest. Undoubtedly huge amounts of funding goes into bilingual signs, government paperwork, etc, etc, but I think it would be fair to say that the GAA and the Orange scene receive much more by-in by the public.
Another example is the huge amounts of money (lots of it coming from the National Lottery in the UK) is poured into art galleries and theatres, and again they do not have anything like the public by-in as things like music festivals, football supporting, etc etc.

my point is not a sectarian or nationalistic one. It is simply that I think culture should be fluid and should follow people’s interests and not be dictated by government money.
And thank goodness no matter how government tries to direct culture it seems unable to do so.
It just remains unfair that millions of pounds are poured into art galleries when it is a tiny minority interest - thankfully the working masses seem to decide what culture is no matter what the government wants to throw at art galleries or Irish language

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie and JM08 You are spinning again.
You know exactly the point I was making i.e. that massive amounts of funding is going into supporting Irish language in Northern Ireland compared to tiny drops of funding that makes its way to any of the full range of Unionist cultural activities. And i wasn't complaining about that rather i was just pointing out that money invested in a particular culture/hobby does not equate with interest generated

I didn’t even start on the millions that are going into GAA, I simply pointed out the millions that are going into Irish language. You can spin it whatever way you wish but the facts are very clear.

And as for your attempted pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said (orange bands have received no funding) and then stating that I was wrong - if I take the same pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said, then I was 100% accurate. No orange band did receive any funding - can you clearly demonstrate were one did?

Now I am not pedantic and hair splitting and therefore freely admit that mine was a general comment i.e. no funding – meant- practically no funding, and orange bands – meant - the full swathe of loyalist marching bands.

But there you are, you choose whichever interpretation you wish, pedantic or general, and I was 100% accurate and correct in my statement.

You know debate would get much further and be more productive, if your sole purpose wasn’t to prove others wrong all the time, but if you were actually interested in learning something, and a good start would be learning to humbly accept when you are wrong.

eh...so you change what you are saying and then blame us for refuting what you said originally?

Brilliant. As I said...living in a bubble of self righteousness.

2 seconds on Google again brings up another list of funding, including Orange bands.

https://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/community-projects/projects-funded-by-the-agency/

Frank Castle

downcow wrote: »

Still no orange bands in your list if we want to be pedantic like JM08 & Francie.

No doubt they are currently searching Google - let’s see if they can find a single example of an orange band receiving funding - if they do I will hold my hands up and apologise

They do as I know for a fact I have relations who's troop got funding just last year. They didn't get much though, a few thousand to go towards instruments and facility upgrades. Didn't help much to be honest.

There is this though:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/northern-ireland-executives-decision-to-give-funding-back-to-marching-bands-is-step-in-right-direction-35126728.html

I think Irish language does receive more funding though. I don't know the details of how that is split out and tbh I have no interest in it.

Edit: 1 thing I will say though is that I think everyone should be getting an even split of funding for promotion of their culture, BUT Ulster Scots should never get funding. My uncle and his wife harp on about being fluent in Ulster Scots. Big deal, its a ****ing accent not a language!

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Tbh we get plenty of funding. Cash for ash worked out well for a lot of my relations.

also half year report for 2012

Both sides get plenty of funding. No point pretending we don't when the internet exists.

Still no orange bands in your list if we want to be pedantic like JM08 & Francie.

No doubt they are currently searching Google - let’s see if they can find a single example of an orange band receiving funding - if they do I will hold my hands up and apologise

Frank Castle

Tbh we get plenty of funding. Cash for ash worked out well for a lot of my relations.

also half year report for 2012

Both sides get plenty of funding. No point pretending we don't when the internet exists.

'A CONTROVERSIAL Stormont grant scheme has pledged more than £104,000 to upgrade Orange halls after applications for the cash were made by other organisations.

Details provided by the Department for Communities has revealed that five Orange halls across the north are set to benefit from the ‘community hall’ scheme after grant applications were made by several groups describing themselves as Ulster Scots, cultural, educational and historical.

In total 90 groups were offered cash through the scheme which had an original budget of £500,000 which has since quadrupled to £1.9m.'

The truth is both cultures need to be supported equally. All this bickering between funding them helps neither culture

When are we going to grow up and start moving forward?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As I said, perhaps if downcow did the minimal of research (I found evidence of substantial funding within seconds of going on Google) before making mythical claims, his argument might have more credibility. It is quite clear he is living in a bit of a righteous bubble, as it isn't the first time he has made claims were the opposite of what he says turns out to be the reality.

Francie and JM08 You are spinning again.
You know exactly the point I was making i.e. that massive amounts of funding is going into supporting Irish language in Northern Ireland compared to tiny drops of funding that makes its way to any of the full range of Unionist cultural activities. And i wasn't complaining about that rather i was just pointing out that money invested in a particular culture/hobby does not equate with interest generated

I didn’t even start on the millions that are going into GAA, I simply pointed out the millions that are going into Irish language. You can spin it whatever way you wish but the facts are very clear.

And as for your attempted pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said (orange bands have received no funding) and then stating that I was wrong - if I take the same pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said, then I was 100% accurate. No orange band did receive any funding - can you clearly demonstrate were one did?

Now I am not pedantic and hair splitting and therefore freely admit that mine was a general comment i.e. no funding – meant- practically no funding, and orange bands – meant - the full swathe of loyalist marching bands.

But there you are, you choose whichever interpretation you wish, pedantic or general, and I was 100% accurate and correct in my statement.

You know debate would get much further and be more productive, if your sole purpose wasn’t to prove others wrong all the time, but if you were actually interested in learning something, and a good start would be learning to humbly accept when you are wrong.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

And here is more funding (bands are included in this funding).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-minister-accused-of-favouring-one-side-of-community-1.2937899

As I said, perhaps if downcow did the minimal of research (I found evidence of substantial funding within seconds of going on Google) before making mythical claims, his argument might have more credibility. It is quite clear he is living in a bit of a righteous bubble, as it isn't the first time he has made claims were the opposite of what he says turns out to be the reality.

jm08

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here is what you said:

That funding in a single year was for musical instruments = 298,000

That is not 'without funding'.

And here is more funding (bands are included in this funding).

Nationalist politicians have accused the DUP communities Minister Paul Givan of favouring the unionist and loyalist “side of the community” when awarding £1.9 million in grants for community halls.

Mr Givan, who since Christmas has been embroiled in controversy after first revoking and then restoring a La Irish language promotion grant of £50,000, has now been accused of discriminating in favour of organisations from the unionist and Protestant tradition.

The Belfast-based Sunday Life newspaper, however, published a list of beneficiaries of the scheme which showed that more than 30 Orange Order halls and loyalist bands received grants. In contrast, according to the list, just two GAA clubs and two Ancient Order of Hibernian halls benefited.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-minister-accused-of-favouring-one-side-of-community-1.2937899

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You seem to struggle with figures.

Here is what you said:

orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding

That funding in a single year was for musical instruments = 298,000

That is not 'without funding'.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You seem to struggle with figures.
i think your link suggested approx £200,000 given to bands and £350,000 given to orange halls and there are about 600 of each. Thats £600 per hall and about £4 per band member
Look at this link for some stark difference https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/190m-spent-on-irish-language-in-just-seven-years-1-8388187 £190 million spent on the irish language in this statethat discriminates against irish .
i think that works out at approx 400 times as much spent on irish culture than unionist culture and thats using your links.

£150m of that goes to Irish-medium schools!

The schools have to be provided for anyway

edit: breakdown over 7 years:

Out of the £190.6m spent from 2010 to 2017, £153m was allocated to ‘People’, including funding for Irish-medium schools and staff training. Almost £29m was spent on capital projects and programmes accounted for £8.2m.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

What should i call them?

I'm not sure to be honest.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You really don't know how to research before you trot out myths.
Just a quick google below, but it fairly demolishes your counter argument.

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2017/04/10/news/orange-halls-receive-more-than-350-000-in-lottery-cash-991838/content.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38513338

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2017/04/10/news/orange-halls-receive-more-than-350-000-in-lottery-cash-991838/content.html

And the GAA is rightfully funded too.

You seem to struggle with figures.
i think your link suggested approx £200,000 given to bands and £350,000 given to orange halls and there are about 600 of each. Thats £600 per hall and about £4 per band member
Look at this link for some stark difference https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/190m-spent-on-irish-language-in-just-seven-years-1-8388187 £190 million spent on the irish language in this statethat discriminates against irish .
i think that works out at approx 400 times as much spent on irish culture than unionist culture and thats using your links.
That might shock your southern friends!
But as i was pointing out, orange culture continues to florish with next to zero finacial support and we are told irish is struggling with hundreds of millions thrown at it to keep the shinners from complaining.
The one positive thing about a UI is that this will need to flip and the orange scene will need to get hundreds of millions to protect the minority culture

jm08

downcow wrote: »

apologies if i misunderstood.
I have zero interest in attending a st pats parade. it just feels so alien because everyone is running around wrapped in irish tricolours and gaelic shirts. But honestly its fine with me that it happens. You'll find a town near me with 95% unionist centre and there is a catholic band parade through it every st pats day. Locals just ignore - no interest but also no problem

I think you will find that down this way, the main parades are a bit more sophisticated than a few people running around in gaelic jerseys. It might be worth your while investing as certainly the Dublin parade attracts 1000s of tourists which is a great boast to the city that early in the season.

The Dublin Parade is usually themed - this year it was about climate change and some really fantastic floats. Last year the theme was space.

You might see the odd American in a leprechaun hat, but thats about it. If you ever visited this neck of the woods, you probably realise that flags are not such a big deal here.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

GAA and orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding -

You really don't know how to research before you trot out myths.
Just a quick google below, but it fairly demolishes your counter argument.

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2017/04/10/news/orange-halls-receive-more-than-350-000-in-lottery-cash-991838/content.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38513338

£200,000 was initially made available, mostly to marching bands, but DFC have confirmed that 68 bands were offered funding through the scheme in 2016/17 at a cost of £298,000.

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2017/04/10/news/orange-halls-receive-more-than-350-000-in-lottery-cash-991838/content.html

And the GAA is rightfully funded too.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Catholic band? Is there such a thing?

I suppose same lazy language as protestant band - apologies
I am not sure what they are but it AOH parade and some are small girls with pom poms and somne are men with pipes and some are in IRA parimilitary dress. Quite a mix, but all also take part in easter lilly parades. What should i call them?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only reason Irish is compulsory is to try and promote it and keep it alive as a language. You aren't being indoctrinated. Calm the ham.

You see i have always believed strongly that culture is something that communities hold on to if valuable.
I don't believe any gov money should support culture. If a community believe something is worth holding on to then they will.
Once gov get involved in promoting certain aspects of culture then i get suspicious that they are steering it.
GAA and orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding - although GAA is now getting lots but i don't think that will make it stronger.

why should govs be allowed to decide what cultures are important?.

Now 'compulsory' is the antithesis of 'culture'. If it is compulsory then it is certainly not culture. Culture is something people choose to participate in. If it needs to be compulsory then obviously most don't value it

What you think?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

catholic band

Catholic band? Is there such a thing?

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It was a remark regarding taking on other cultures and the St. Patrick's parade. Just pointing out St. Patrick and his religion were an import.
On that bands from the north would be more than welcome. It's all the island of Ireland after all and I believe St. Patrick held seat in Tyrone too.
When you think about it St. Patrick's day celebrates Ireland taking on some of the culture of the U.K.

apologies if i misunderstood.
I have zero interest in attending a st pats parade. it just feels so alien because everyone is running around wrapped in irish tricolours and gaelic shirts. But honestly its fine with me that it happens. You'll find a town near me with 95% unionist centre and there is a catholic band parade through it every st pats day. Locals just ignore - no interest but also no problem

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

OK you are right. I accept i was talking nonsense there. I do understand why some people have irish as a hobby. I was clumsy with how i put that. my real issue was why some irish speakers seem to want everyone else to speak it as well

It's a cultural thing. They want to promote the language. It's not a North south thing for these people. There are various groups you can join for free etc.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I didn't say it was scary.
Can you tell me why it makes you feel a more complete person if i am forced to learn Irish? I genuinely don't understand the need of irish speakers to need others to want to have the same hobby as them

The only reason Irish is compulsory is to try and promote it and keep it alive as a language. You aren't being indoctrinated. Calm the ham.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I find it baffling that a self described unionist, given that they seem to put so much emphasis on culture, can't understand why some Irish people have an interest in their cultural heritage, and it's ancient language to be completely honest with you.

OK you are right. I accept i was talking nonsense there. I do understand why some people have irish as a hobby. I was clumsy with how i put that. my real issue was why some irish speakers seem to want everyone else to speak it as well

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Explain to me what's so scary about "mandatory" Irish?

I mean, are you ever curious about why Down is so-called? Or Carrickfergus? Or Belfast?

Solid English placenames they are.

I didn't say it was scary.
Can you tell me why it makes you feel a more complete person if i am forced to learn Irish? I genuinely don't understand the need of irish speakers to need others to want to have the same hobby as them

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I find it baffling that a self described unionist, given that they seem to put so much emphasis on culture, can't understand why some Irish people have an interest in their cultural heritage, and it's ancient language to be completely honest with you.

Tbh I would compromise on the language thing as well. Never heard such nonsense about it. Those who instinctively hate it, deserve to miss out on it's beauty.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Does the capital C suggest you are referring to the Ronan Catholic Church or are you talking about the Christian church?

It was a remark regarding taking on other cultures and the St. Patrick's parade. Just pointing out St. Patrick and his religion were an import.
On that bands from the north would be more than welcome. It's all the island of Ireland after all and I believe St. Patrick held seat in Tyrone too.
When you think about it St. Patrick's day celebrates Ireland taking on some of the culture of the U.K.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Are you smoking something? What you mean Patrick embraced his catholic culture?

You read it wrong.

downcow wrote: »

So what else would you make mandatory in this new ‘free’ Ireland?

TBF it seems some will grudgingly accept a united Ireland, but only if all the trappings of Irishness are lost. Should we change the name Ulster to something less Irishy?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Protestants are 'Catholics' too. The correct definition for the main faith on the island is 'Roman' Catholics.

https://www.ireland.anglican.org/our-faith/what-we-believe

You beat me to it francie.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We embraced his Catholic culture. We being the island of Ireland, who are a largely Catholic nation.

Does the capital C suggest you are referring to the Ronan Catholic Church or are you talking about the Christian church?