downcow wrote: » I didn't say it was scary. Can you tell me why it makes you feel a more complete person if i am forced to learn Irish? I genuinely don't understand the need of irish speakers to need others to want to have the same hobby as them
downcow wrote: » OK you are right. I accept i was talking nonsense there. I do understand why some people have irish as a hobby. I was clumsy with how i put that. my real issue was why some irish speakers seem to want everyone else to speak it as well
Matt Barrett wrote: » It was a remark regarding taking on other cultures and the St. Patrick's parade. Just pointing out St. Patrick and his religion were an import. On that bands from the north would be more than welcome. It's all the island of Ireland after all and I believe St. Patrick held seat in Tyrone too. When you think about it St. Patrick's day celebrates Ireland taking on some of the culture of the U.K.
downcow wrote: » catholic band
FrancieBrady wrote: » The only reason Irish is compulsory is to try and promote it and keep it alive as a language. You aren't being indoctrinated. Calm the ham.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Catholic band? Is there such a thing?
downcow wrote: » GAA and orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding -
£200,000 was initially made available, mostly to marching bands, but DFC have confirmed that 68 bands were offered funding through the scheme in 2016/17 at a cost of £298,000.
downcow wrote: » apologies if i misunderstood. I have zero interest in attending a st pats parade. it just feels so alien because everyone is running around wrapped in irish tricolours and gaelic shirts. But honestly its fine with me that it happens. You'll find a town near me with 95% unionist centre and there is a catholic band parade through it every st pats day. Locals just ignore - no interest but also no problem
FrancieBrady wrote: » You really don't know how to research before you trot out myths. Just a quick google below, but it fairly demolishes your counter argument.http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2017/04/10/news/orange-halls-receive-more-than-350-000-in-lottery-cash-991838/content.htmlhttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38513338http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2017/04/10/news/orange-halls-receive-more-than-350-000-in-lottery-cash-991838/content.html And the GAA is rightfully funded too.
downcow wrote: » What should i call them?
downcow wrote: » You seem to struggle with figures. i think your link suggested approx £200,000 given to bands and £350,000 given to orange halls and there are about 600 of each. Thats £600 per hall and about £4 per band member Look at this link for some stark difference https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/190m-spent-on-irish-language-in-just-seven-years-1-8388187 £190 million spent on the irish language in this statethat discriminates against irish . i think that works out at approx 400 times as much spent on irish culture than unionist culture and thats using your links.
Out of the £190.6m spent from 2010 to 2017, £153m was allocated to ‘People’, including funding for Irish-medium schools and staff training. Almost £29m was spent on capital projects and programmes accounted for £8.2m.
downcow wrote: » You seem to struggle with figures.
orange bands are good examples of culture that thrive without funding
FrancieBrady wrote: » Here is what you said: That funding in a single year was for musical instruments = 298,000 That is not 'without funding'.
Nationalist politicians have accused the DUP communities Minister Paul Givan of favouring the unionist and loyalist “side of the community” when awarding £1.9 million in grants for community halls. Mr Givan, who since Christmas has been embroiled in controversy after first revoking and then restoring a La Irish language promotion grant of £50,000, has now been accused of discriminating in favour of organisations from the unionist and Protestant tradition.
The Belfast-based Sunday Life newspaper, however, published a list of beneficiaries of the scheme which showed that more than 30 Orange Order halls and loyalist bands received grants. In contrast, according to the list, just two GAA clubs and two Ancient Order of Hibernian halls benefited.
jm08 wrote: » And here is more funding (bands are included in this funding).https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-minister-accused-of-favouring-one-side-of-community-1.2937899
FrancieBrady wrote: » As I said, perhaps if downcow did the minimal of research (I found evidence of substantial funding within seconds of going on Google) before making mythical claims, his argument might have more credibility. It is quite clear he is living in a bit of a righteous bubble, as it isn't the first time he has made claims were the opposite of what he says turns out to be the reality.
Frank Castle wrote: » Tbh we get plenty of funding. Cash for ash worked out well for a lot of my relations. also half year report for 2012 Both sides get plenty of funding. No point pretending we don't when the internet exists.
downcow wrote: » Still no orange bands in your list if we want to be pedantic like JM08 & Francie. No doubt they are currently searching Google - let’s see if they can find a single example of an orange band receiving funding - if they do I will hold my hands up and apologise
downcow wrote: » Francie and JM08 You are spinning again. You know exactly the point I was making i.e. that massive amounts of funding is going into supporting Irish language in Northern Ireland compared to tiny drops of funding that makes its way to any of the full range of Unionist cultural activities. And i wasn't complaining about that rather i was just pointing out that money invested in a particular culture/hobby does not equate with interest generated I didn’t even start on the millions that are going into GAA, I simply pointed out the millions that are going into Irish language. You can spin it whatever way you wish but the facts are very clear. And as for your attempted pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said (orange bands have received no funding) and then stating that I was wrong - if I take the same pedantic and hair splitting interpretation of what I said, then I was 100% accurate. No orange band did receive any funding - can you clearly demonstrate were one did? Now I am not pedantic and hair splitting and therefore freely admit that mine was a general comment i.e. no funding – meant- practically no funding, and orange bands – meant - the full swathe of loyalist marching bands. But there you are, you choose whichever interpretation you wish, pedantic or general, and I was 100% accurate and correct in my statement. You know debate would get much further and be more productive, if your sole purpose wasn’t to prove others wrong all the time, but if you were actually interested in learning something, and a good start would be learning to humbly accept when you are wrong.
Frank Castle wrote: » Both sides get plenty of funding. No point pretending we don't when the internet exists. 'A CONTROVERSIAL Stormont grant scheme has pledged more than £104,000 to upgrade Orange halls after applications for the cash were made by other organisations. Details provided by the Department for Communities has revealed that five Orange halls across the north are set to benefit from the ‘community hall’ scheme after grant applications were made by several groups describing themselves as Ulster Scots, cultural, educational and historical. In total 90 groups were offered cash through the scheme which had an original budget of £500,000 which has since quadrupled to £1.9m.' The truth is both cultures need to be supported equally. All this bickering between funding them helps neither culture When are we going to grow up and start moving forward?
Frank Castle wrote: » Edit: 1 thing I will say though is that I think everyone should be getting an even split of funding for promotion of their culture, BUT Ulster Scots should never get funding. My uncle and his wife harp on about being fluent in Ulster Scots. Big deal, its a ****ing accent not a language!
FrancieBrady wrote: » eh...so you change what you are saying and then blame us for refuting what you said originally? Brilliant. As I said...living in a bubble of self righteousness. 2 seconds on Google again brings up another list of funding, including Orange bands.https://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/community-projects/projects-funded-by-the-agency/
downcow wrote: » my point is not a sectarian or nationalistic one. It is simply that I think culture should be fluid and should follow people’s interests and not be dictated by government money. And thank goodness no matter how government tries to direct culture it seems unable to do so. It just remains unfair that millions of pounds are poured into art galleries when it is a tiny minority interest - thankfully the working masses seem to decide what culture is no matter what the government wants to throw at art galleries or Irish language
downcow wrote: » Francie. I did not change what I said. I was simply being honest and saying that I did not expect it to be interpreted so pedantically. I stand by what you are quoting as being incorrect i.e. “orange bands received no funding”. Now maybe rather than posting a long list of organisations you will just give me the name of one orange band that received funding - that’s not really too difficult for you, is it? And I stand ready to apologise if you achieve it - but I am telling you in advance I am going to employ the same pedantic interpretation as you do when it suits you
downcow wrote: » couldn't disagree more. the whole idea of funding culture is quite new. Yes i agree orange halls have got some crumbs in the last few years. but lets set this whole them and us aside. My point is that over the years, decades, centuries, the orange culture received, to all intents and purpose, no funding. To the best of my knowledge, up until the last 30 or so years, the GAA received little or no funding. Both these organisations have flourished and are at the heart of their communities because people value them and value the culture they are continuing. In contrast lots of attempts have been made to keep Irish language to the fore particularly in ROI, and I accept I may be naïve on this, but it is my impression that it is a minority interest. Undoubtedly huge amounts of funding goes into bilingual signs, government paperwork, etc, etc, but I think it would be fair to say that the GAA and the Orange scene receive much more by-in by the public. Another example is the huge amounts of money (lots of it coming from the National Lottery in the UK) is poured into art galleries and theatres, and again they do not have anything like the public by-in as things like music festivals, football supporting, etc etc. my point is not a sectarian or nationalistic one. It is simply that I think culture should be fluid and should follow people’s interests and not be dictated by government money. And thank goodness no matter how government tries to direct culture it seems unable to do so. It just remains unfair that millions of pounds are poured into art galleries when it is a tiny minority interest - thankfully the working masses seem to decide what culture is no matter what the government wants to throw at art galleries or Irish language
FrancieBrady wrote: » Are you saying 'Orange bands have received no funding' or that they have?
Dytalus wrote: » In principal I agree. If the people don't want it, is it even part of the culture anymore? But then you run into the issue of: are people uninterested because it's too difficult, and would it be easier (and therefore more popular) if it got some support? Minority sports are an example (eg, Women's Rugby). There's an argument to be made that women don't want to play rugby, yet I know of many who play tag rugby because there's no similarly sized option for rugby union in a social capacity for them. Is it not reasonable for the government to break that cycle by funding women's rugby clubs so they can expand and improve and offer them the opportunity to become self sustaining? Obviously Women's Rugby (and other similar things) are not the purview of this thread, but it was the first example that sprung to mind to illustrate my point. I think it's important that the government do its best to keep the language alive. The people of Ireland speak English after a concerted effort was made while occupied, by the occupiers, to eradicate Irish culture/language. I think that kind of extenuating circumstances justifies an equally concerted effort to revive that same culture/language. Obviously this becomes a point of contention in NI because the people who identify as British don't want to learn Irish, but I just don't get why it's such a bad idea whe it's already required to learn a foreign language. What difference does it make if it's french or Irish? Surely for people in NI Irish is more relevant and useful?
downcow wrote: » I am saying that if I use the same pedantic interpretation as you used to misinterpret me, then no orange bands are receiving funding. If you feel I am wrong then name your band. Simple. At this wrong I will apologise to you
As a member of the Orange and Black institutions — I have been an Orangeman for 30 years this year — I have walked behind bands that have been exemplary in their playing, deportment, discipline and decorum. I pay tribute to those bands. That has been my experience as a North Belfast representative in recent times and as an Orangeman sitting in West Belfast Orange Hall for all those years, as my father, grandfather and great-grandfather did before me. I praise the role of the bands in the community. Other Members touched on that. I pay tribute to the Ulster Scots Community Network for the role that it has played in working with the bands to improve them, secure funding for them, develop them and be a voice for them alongside the Confederation of Ulster Bands. I will return to that organisation in a moment.
