Border Poll discussion

Farawayhome wrote: »

Of course, some of the actions of the PIRA were disgusting. They sunk to levels they shouldn't have had. They should have stuck to military targets and waged their war directly against what can only be described as British state terrorists. In fairness, for the most part they did this.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the British side. Their targeting of innocents is really shameful.

The difference now is in imo the GFA makes it harder for the ira to justify terrorist attacks which would probably put the prospect of a UI further away.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Yes I have a few major issues with them. But I also recognise something needed done to make some changes to parading.
My biggest issue is that they do not have to explain their rationale to any decisions. Which is desperately frustrating to people on the wrong side of their decision. They are also very arrogant and at times that arrogance has escalated situations that needed some compromise.
I have great sympathy with communities opposed to parading and with bands wanting to parade. It’s difficult and complex.
An example. I live in a small town which was cleansed of almost all Protestants by the ira, dropping from 40+% to 2%. There is a small community band and small lodge still serviving. I feel it is very wrong that that small unionist community is not allowed to parade in their town one evening per year. I don’t think that is a healthy solution. Parades Commission supports a policy of majorities and bullies win.
I have to admit I don’t see an easy answer when some in the nationalist community will not tolerate diversity in their midst - and they shout loud.

Looking at Parades Commission website, they approved about 4,500 parades in 2018. Thats a lot of parading! There seems to be a fairly comprehensive report from the Commission on the Downpatrick Parade where the local band seem to be able to go the route they want to, but the other non local 31 bands involved in the parade can't and are kept away from The Crescent Area. I also came across this bit of info which could easily be checked out.

In a statement the Down Peace Forum, a community-based pressure group, said that a majority of traders who spoke to the Parades Commission are opposed to any plan that includes the Red Hand Defenders. The Forum accused the loyalist band of wrecking community relations when in 1986 it forced Down District Council to abandon its St Patrick's Day parade when they tried to join it with the intention of causing trouble.

It also said that this band marched with LVF colours and that they have known local connections to the LVF, so maybe not so innocent as you are trying to make out and possibly why the Parades Commission restricts the parade a bit.

Farawayhome wrote: »

Yeah, the collusion with loyalists and murder of innocents was fairly disgusting. We know about the high profile ones like the Dublin and Monahan bombings and so on but it really was rampant. That the British government not only knew about the murderous actions of their forces but encouraged it and covered it up really makes it sickening. I'm sure most British people would be like you and be shamed and embarrassed about it all if they knew the facts.

It is more complex than that and the republican pr machine does a great job on this one. Here are my thoughts. None of which I am surprised happened

Certainly some loyalist paramilitaries joined the British army and in particular the UDR - these represented tiny tiny numbers in the overall picture.
Certainly the army ran agents in both loyalist and republican groups and often these agents were involved in death squads - the press have been conditioned to refer to them differently - when loyalist it is collusion yet when republican they are British agents. A useful spin.
Anyone who thinks there was not agent/collusion rampant in ira is very misinformed. We are about to see some laid bare in stakeknife enquiry. Probably the most senior British agent (the butcher)in ira died fairly recently and took his (open) secret with.
This was a very dirty war and some very shady questionable things happened but I am interested do some people on here think the army should not have ran agents in these organisations??
I feel the guarda would be failing in its duty if it was not currently attempting to rumbagents in the Hutch gang etc, and be assured, if they are, that the agents will be sailing very close to the wind on the legality of their activities.
The ira killed more catholics than anyone else. Had it not been for collusion/agents there is little doubt this number would have been much higher.

RobMc59 wrote: »

The truth is probably somewhere in between-no side is blameless and have done things to be ashamed of-are you ashamed of some of the actions of republican terrorists?

Of course, some of the actions of the PIRA were disgusting. They sunk to levels they shouldn't have had. They should have stuck to military targets and waged their war directly against what can only be described as British state terrorists. In fairness, for the most part they did this.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the British side. Their targeting of innocents is really shameful.

downcow wrote: »

I guess that question is directed at brits across the water but I am British and here’s my take.
I am very grateful for their sacrifice over past 40 years to keep the two warring factions in NI apart and as safe as possible.
Of course mistakes were made but I was just in a conversation last night where we were reflecting on how there was so few mistakes. Thousands of young British soldiers, armed to the teeth and under constant threat, they were amazingly disciplined. We all had endless stories, in our wilder youth, of sliding into army checkpoints at high speed and soldiers jumping out of the way - not a shot fired - and reversing back to be met by incredibly calm and respectful guys.
I, of course, have nationalist friends with very different stories. But there was a different relationship with many in the nationalist community (and we could argue whether chicken or egg cane first)and I don’t blame young nationalists for that. As for the soldiers, when me or my community were stopped we perceived the soldiers with gratitude, were friendly with them, may give them sweets, and thanked them as we drove off. Nationalist young people may have been unfriendly, avoided answering questions, and maybe told them they wished they’d go home.
It is no wonder we look back on their role with very different analysis

Actually, Nationalists acted the same way as you say unionists acted towards them! They welcomed them and saw them as their saviours from attacks by the unionist community. They made tea for them, gave them food. Then the British armed forces started shooting innocents dead on the street, they started beating up people at checkpoints, for some reason they were only shooting innocent Nationalists.
Maybe that's why the unionist community don't have as negative a view of them. The British armed forces sided with them and made life hell for Nationalists. It's just a pity the unionist community can't admit to this and look for some form of justice for their neighbours.

Farawayhome wrote: »

Yeah, the collusion with loyalists and murder of innocents was fairly disgusting. We know about the high profile ones like the Dublin and Monahan bombings and so on but it really was rampant. That the British government not only knew about the murderous actions of their forces but encouraged it and covered it up really makes it sickening. I'm sure most British people would be like you and be shamed and embarrassed about it all if they knew the facts.

The truth is probably somewhere in between-no side is blameless and have done things to be ashamed of-are you ashamed of some of the actions of republican terrorists?

RobMc59 wrote: »

Personally I think some of the actions of the UK armed forces have been shameful-especially after watching the Miami showband documentary.

Yeah, the collusion with loyalists and murder of innocents was fairly disgusting. We know about the high profile ones like the Dublin and Monahan bombings and so on but it really was rampant. That the British government not only knew about the murderous actions of their forces but encouraged it and covered it up really makes it sickening. I'm sure most British people would be like you and be shamed and embarrassed about it all if they knew the facts.

Farawayhome wrote: »

What's the view of British people in terms of their treatment of Irish people by their government and armed forces in the recent and not so recent past? Shame? Embarrassment? Pride? What's your take on it?

I guess that question is directed at brits across the water but I am British and here’s my take.
I am very grateful for their sacrifice over past 40 years to keep the two warring factions in NI apart and as safe as possible.
Of course mistakes were made but I was just in a conversation last night where we were reflecting on how there was so few mistakes. Thousands of young British soldiers, armed to the teeth and under constant threat, they were amazingly disciplined. We all had endless stories, in our wilder youth, of sliding into army checkpoints at high speed and soldiers jumping out of the way - not a shot fired - and reversing back to be met by incredibly calm and respectful guys.
I, of course, have nationalist friends with very different stories. But there was a different relationship with many in the nationalist community (and we could argue whether chicken or egg cane first)and I don’t blame young nationalists for that. As for the soldiers, when me or my community were stopped we perceived the soldiers with gratitude, were friendly with them, may give them sweets, and thanked them as we drove off. Nationalist young people may have been unfriendly, avoided answering questions, and maybe told them they wished they’d go home.
It is no wonder we look back on their role with very different analysis

Farawayhome wrote: »

What's the view of British people in terms of their treatment of Irish people by their government and armed forces in the recent and not so recent past? Shame? Embarrassment? Pride? What's your take on it?

Personally I think some of the actions of the UK armed forces have been shameful-especially after watching the Miami showband documentary.

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can you criticise someone in regards to remembering events in 1690 when you and others speak of nothing else but the past?

What's the view of British people in terms of their treatment of Irish people by their government and armed forces in the recent and not so recent past? Shame? Embarrassment? Pride? What's your take on it?

McMurphy

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can you criticise someone in regards to remembering events in 1690 when you and others speak of nothing else but the past?

Pointing out irony isn't criticism. They're two different things.

jm08 wrote: »

downcow, do you have an issue with the Parades Commission?

Yes I have a few major issues with them. But I also recognise something needed done to make some changes to parading.
My biggest issue is that they do not have to explain their rationale to any decisions. Which is desperately frustrating to people on the wrong side of their decision. They are also very arrogant and at times that arrogance has escalated situations that needed some compromise.
I have great sympathy with communities opposed to parading and with bands wanting to parade. It’s difficult and complex.
An example. I live in a small town which was cleansed of almost all Protestants by the ira, dropping from 40+% to 2%. There is a small community band and small lodge still serviving. I feel it is very wrong that that small unionist community is not allowed to parade in their town one evening per year. I don’t think that is a healthy solution. Parades Commission supports a policy of majorities and bullies win.
I have to admit I don’t see an easy answer when some in the nationalist community will not tolerate diversity in their midst - and they shout loud.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

There's a certain irony when a poster throws in an 80s remark to try and dismiss concerns raised over a bunch of sectarian bigots who parade to celebrate something that happened in 1690.

I have been having a little bit of a Google there myself this morning Tom, and from what I can see this is Downpatricks loyalist band, Google doesn't bring up anymore, but I stand to be corrected.

"The Red Hand Defenders" now admittedly I don't know anyone remotely connected to the band to make a judgment call on how benign or inoffensive they are, but seriously, the band name isn't projecting a benign and inoffensive persona to me.

This bit is rather pertinent seeing as we are discussing the Downpatrick parade being permitted/not permitted to take place.

How can you criticise someone in regards to remembering events in 1690 when you and others speak of nothing else but the past?

jm08

downcow, do you have an issue with the Parades Commission?

Quote:
Originally Posted by View Post
Quote:
The Red Hand Defenders (RHD) is an Ulster loyalist paramilitary group in Northern Ireland. It was formed in 1998 by loyalists who opposed the Belfast Agreement and the loyalist ceasefires.[1] Its members were drawn mostly from the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF).[1] The name had first been used by Red Hand Commandos dissident Frankie Curry in 1996 and he was the leading figure in what was a somewhat unstructured organization until he was killed in 1999.[2] It is named after the Red Hand of Ulster.
This bit is rather pertinent seeing as we are discussing the Downpatrick parade being permitted/not permitted to take place.
Quote:
The RHD emerged when it claimed responsibility for a blast bomb attack on 7 September 1998 during a loyalist protest in Portadown. Loyalists had been protesting against the decision to ban the Orange Order from marching through the town's mainly Catholic and Irish nationalist quarter (see Drumcree conflict). The attack killed a Catholic Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer.[1] Since then, the RHD has claimed responsibility for killing a further ten people. It has also claimed responsibility for many pipe bomb attacks, mostly on the homes of Catholics.[1] One of the RHD's most notable attacks was the assassination of human rights lawyer Rosemary Nelson on 15 March 1999.[1] She had represented alleged Irish republican paramilitaries, the family of Robert Hamill, and the Garvaghy Road Residents Association. Of the eleven people the RHD claimed to have killed, nine were civilians, one was a former UDA member and one was an RUC officer.

The RHD are a Proscribed Organisation in the United Kingdom under the Terrorism Act 2000.[4]"

Some of the stuff on here is just the poisonous Sinn Fein rewriting of history. I don’t blame you guys for believing it but I do think past experience should teach you to check out any facts that come from Republicans reporting on Northern Ireland.

I forget now were this discussion all came from, but it is quite pertinent to the topic of Unionists accepting a united Ireland, as there needs to be some reconciliation and honest truth telling for Unionists to even enter a discussion on it.

I have just read post after post implying that a very reputable flute band in Downpatrick, which is known for its impeccable behaviour, has been linked to a vicious sectarian group of thugs. Now some have googled it to try and find some shred of evidence to put a story together. I just find it difficult to know how you could Google it without finding the truth - other posters should try it and see how evident truth is and then how the post continued to attempt to link this band to the terror group.

Anyhow here is one link from the BBC for those that don’t have time to Google https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44436968
You will note that the terror group was formed in 1998 and the band has existed since 1981. But do not feel bad about being fooled by Republicans, you will note on the link how they also fooled youtube with their complaints.
This is a well worn tactic by Republicans.
You will hear it regularly repeated how Northern Ireland’s football ground Windsor Park is named after the Royal family - a quick Google will demonstrate that Windsor Park was named before the Royals took on the name Windsor.
You may also have heard many times that the Northern Ireland football fans favourite song (the bouncy) was brought into taunt people about the sectarian killing of a young catholic in Portadown (Robert Hammill you refer to), and that the fans are mimicking jumping on his head - another quick Google would provide footage of the Northern Ireland fans doing the bouncy many years before this killing took place.

There is so much stuff in the last number of posts that I could debunk with facts, but rather than an endlessly long post, I would appreciate that if any of you believe any of the nonsense in the last series of posts identify which it it is you think may have a thread of accuracy and I will debunk it for you.

It is also interesting that post after post I have accepted people’s comments that loyalist paramilitaries were sectarian thugs hellbent on terrorising and killing Catholics. I have yet to see a single poster admit that the IRA were sectarian thugs hellbent on terrorising and killing Protestants.
This is a problem for those hoping to encourage Protestants to consider a united Ireland - we need to start with a united reconciliation and some truth

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear oh dear that is so 1980s

There's a certain irony when a poster throws in an 80s remark to try and dismiss concerns raised over a bunch of sectarian bigots who parade to celebrate something that happened in 1690.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Hold on a second there, I asked you a simple question. I googled 'Downpatrick' and 'Parades Commission' and it threw up this:

UKIP’s Down District Spokesman Alan Lewis has expressed disappointment at the annual Parades Commission restrictions on the Downpatrock Red Hand Defenders annual band parade.

downnews.co.uk/parades-commission

So is this the banned march you're on about or not?

I have been having a little bit of a Google there myself this morning Tom, and from what I can see this is Downpatricks loyalist band, Google doesn't bring up anymore, but I stand to be corrected.

"The Red Hand Defenders" now admittedly I don't know anyone remotely connected to the band to make a judgment call on how benign or inoffensive they are, but seriously, the band name isn't projecting a benign and inoffensive persona to me.

The Red Hand Defenders (RHD) is an Ulster loyalist paramilitary group in Northern Ireland. It was formed in 1998 by loyalists who opposed the Belfast Agreement and the loyalist ceasefires.[1] Its members were drawn mostly from the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF).[1] The name had first been used by Red Hand Commandos dissident Frankie Curry in 1996 and he was the leading figure in what was a somewhat unstructured organization until he was killed in 1999.[2] It is named after the Red Hand of Ulster.

This bit is rather pertinent seeing as we are discussing the Downpatrick parade being permitted/not permitted to take place.

The RHD emerged when it claimed responsibility for a blast bomb attack on 7 September 1998 during a loyalist protest in Portadown. Loyalists had been protesting against the decision to ban the Orange Order from marching through the town's mainly Catholic and Irish nationalist quarter (see Drumcree conflict). The attack killed a Catholic Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer.[1] Since then, the RHD has claimed responsibility for killing a further ten people. It has also claimed responsibility for many pipe bomb attacks, mostly on the homes of Catholics.[1] One of the RHD's most notable attacks was the assassination of human rights lawyer Rosemary Nelson on 15 March 1999.[1] She had represented alleged Irish republican paramilitaries, the family of Robert Hamill, and the Garvaghy Road Residents Association. Of the eleven people the RHD claimed to have killed, nine were civilians, one was a former UDA member and one was an RUC officer.

The RHD are a Proscribed Organisation in the United Kingdom under the Terrorism Act 2000.[4]

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

There's a certain irony when a poster throws in an 80s remark to try and dismiss concerns raised over a bunch of sectarian bigots who parade to celebrate something that happened in 1690.

Oh dear.

The elephant in the room of course is the OO.
It isn't compatible with any modern state until it reforms it's charter and behaviour in places.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

This though is a disgraceful lie. I know a few of the band members and they would be disgusted at such ridiculous accusations.
We are also off thread again.

Hold on a second there, I asked you a simple question. I googled 'Downpatrick' and 'Parades Commission' and it threw up this:

UKIP’s Down District Spokesman Alan Lewis has expressed disappointment at the annual Parades Commission restrictions on the Downpatrock Red Hand Defenders annual band parade.

downnews.co.uk/parades-commission

So is this the banned march you're on about or not?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Imagine a world where the referendum only passed if the four separate countries voted for it.

The talk of the EU being undemocratic wears thin when 27 countries are given a voice, but the UK's union is just about which country has the biggest population.

Superb point. And so much for "the wishes of the majority of the population of Northern Ireland" being constitutionally protected when Brexit is overthrowing the clearly expressed wishes of the majority in NI to stay in the EU and instead imposing the wishes of the majority in England. If/when the majority in England vote to get rid of NI, will that also happen? After this precedent, if not, why not?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Would that be the 'Red Hand Defenders band' who commemorate an illegal Protestant/Unionist murder gang with a history of killing innocent Catholics?

Folks a number of you are just throwing unsubstantiated nonsense and unrelated stuff.
This though is a disgraceful lie. I know a few of the band members and they would be disgusted at such ridiculous accusations.
We are also off thread again.

The bit of your post that may be relevant to the UI thread is your reference to “illegal Protestant/Unionist murder gangs with a history of killing innocent Catholics” You see I have no problem whatsoever accepting these existed and this happened and I wish it hadn’t and there was no excuse for it. I am not so sure though that you would admit that the republican groups eg ira were illegal Catholic/nationalist murder gangs with a history of killing innocent Protestants And until republicans stop living in denial and accept what they done was also very wrong and can’t be excused then reconciliation will be very difficult and a UI impossible

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Downpatrick. The parade route wishes to skirt the edge of town on a main road to get access to the towns only loyalist estate.

Would that be the 'Red Hand Defenders band' who commemorate an illegal Protestant/Unionist murder gang with a history of killing innocent Catholics?

zapitastas

votecounts wrote: »

The worst violence came in 1996, when the RUC agreed to the banned parade going ahead as leading loyalist Billy Wright, since assassinated, threatened to drive a digger filled with drums of petrol at police lines, and set them alight. His then fledgling group, the Loyalist Volunteer Force, also murdered a Catholic taxi-driver, Michael McGoldrick, 31.

There was mayhem in 1998, with crowds of 25,000 gathering nightly in the first week after the Orangemen were stopped, and 30 police officers injured in bomb attacks, four seriously. Violence spread throughout Northern Ireland, as it had done two years earlier.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jul/01/northernireland.jamiewilson
Peaceful Bunch, 25000 gathering nightly would have you blocked in your home too

Not to mention the murder of three young boys in Ballymoney in 1998. Possibly one of the most shameful events of the troubles, it was carried out by the UVF at the height of the protests about drumcree

downcow wrote: »

I have to be squeaky clean so I won’t be commenting further on parading as it’s off thread. Mind you maybe there is a place for a parading thread as there is some serious misunderstanding of the issues

You aren't even reading the reports, preferring to believe some old hookum that the parade is banned because an SDLP man said he didn't want a prod about the place back in the 80's.
And you say we have 'serious misunderstandings'?

votecounts

The worst violence came in 1996, when the RUC agreed to the banned parade going ahead as leading loyalist Billy Wright, since assassinated, threatened to drive a digger filled with drums of petrol at police lines, and set them alight. His then fledgling group, the Loyalist Volunteer Force, also murdered a Catholic taxi-driver, Michael McGoldrick, 31.

There was mayhem in 1998, with crowds of 25,000 gathering nightly in the first week after the Orangemen were stopped, and 30 police officers injured in bomb attacks, four seriously. Violence spread throughout Northern Ireland, as it had done two years earlier.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jul/01/northernireland.jamiewilson
Peaceful Bunch, 25000 gathering nightly would have you blocked in your home too

I have to be squeaky clean so I won’t be commenting further on parading as it’s off thread. Mind you maybe there is a place for a parading thread as there is some serious misunderstanding of the issues

votecounts wrote: »

Do you not remember Drumcee?
Ignorance is bliss

Go on to google arial maps of drumcree Portadown. And note that the paraders were prevented from leaving drumcree church. Note where that is in in relation to the residents of drumcree and then come back on here and tell us why they would be locked in their homes.

downcow wrote: »

Yes, if I was of your opinion then I would congratulate them as well

There is still plenty to do, but I think they have taken a lot of heat out of some of these parades. And they have successfully challenged the nonsense that there is some inalienable right to march where you are not wanted.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Commission is to be congratulated imo.

Yes, if I was of your opinion then I would congratulate them as well

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

What planet are you on. People locked in their homes for days???

Do you not remember Drumcee?
Ignorance is bliss