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Fear of drugs

Undividual

Had a couple of conversations recently about drugs and am just curious what it is about drugs that prevent people trying them? I understand fearing a loss of control or full on addiction.

In my own case, the hardest I've tried was ecstasy which was great fun the first time and a living nightmare the third (and last) time. I do occasionally smoke grass (about once a month). I went in and out of using it to cope throughout my teens and early 20s. For my 2 cents, it did the job.

My experience of people on coke scared me away from that. I could never justify spending the kind of money people do on that.

My views over the past few years have changed and I lean more towards legalizing soft drugs, providing the tax gained and social benefits would cover the social costs (as with alcohol). I also don't like the thought of money going towards organized criminals.

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[Deleted User]

Balanadan wrote: »

So if you don't agree with the law, you can can choose not to obey the law

Absolutely

Balanadan wrote: »

absolve yourself of any moral questions, support organised crime and the destruction of the environment?

No, moral absolution would depend on the nature of the law you chose to disobey.
Organised crime and environmental concerns need not come into it if you can secure your own supply - and regardless those concerns only arise as a result of prohibition.
(I'm sure the majority of users would be more than happy to see their drugs taxed and have that go back into the economy rather than to dealers. Government isn't interested in collecting from this huge revenue stream however and seem content with the current futile method of pissing money away on enforcement when 95% of the product will make it to the consumer one way or another)

Smashmouth

....... wrote: »

Just to point out that mushroom picking either for hallucinatory experiences or eating is considered an extreme sport.

Experienced people have died or been left with permanent kidney damage from picking and consuming wild mushrooms.

The only way to be sure, absolutely sure, is to do a spore print and look at it under a microscope.

Thinking you can identify by sight alone is both foolish and dangerous.

Mushroom picking is a lot more common than you'd think. Back when I used to do it, we'd walk into a cow field and the mushrooms would all have popped up well over the grass in a field that generally nothing other than grass grows in. I mean you could fill a grocery bag in a couple of hours with them. Go back the next month and it's just grass. I'm sure forests are a different story.

Definitely wouldn't recommend eating mushrooms to anyone. I did it pretty heavily and I'm certain that it has done lasting damage.

greencap

You can have an underlying neural condition (or other condition) which you don't even know about.

that condition can mean you're not able to handle a 'normal' dose. and don't even know it.

I know someone with a neural condition they knew nothing about, his pills were prescribed after consultations with neurologists and various scans.

Moving his dose from say 10mg to 5mg involves a consultation with a doctor with over a decades study under their belt.

... then we get to modern day ''educated'' drug culture, where its 'this is grand mdma is proven fine' go on bung a couple down.

even if a scientist was experimenting on you with the purest of lab made mdma they'd still run you through a bunch of tests and background checks.
and numerous candidates would flunk.

if the likes of Parkinsons meds or epilepsy meds or other pills have to be so carefully prescribed lest your one and only brain be damaged, then why do people think they can just self medicate other brain altering substances with a margin of error of 'm'eh who knows'.

wakka12

Some stories scare me. Of young people having heart attacks or fatal seizures from a 'bad batch' or whatever, and regardless , just have no interest in trying them really, I dont want to be completely out of my mind and out of control, a bit of drink gets me happy and buzzed and Im happy to just leave it at that

I think it is just messing with your body needlessly. Do you need to be high that badly?

[Deleted User]

greencap wrote: »

You can have an underlying neural condition (or other condition) which you don't even know about.

that condition can mean you're not able to handle a 'normal' dose. and don't even know it.

I know someone with a neural condition they knew nothing about, his pills were prescribed after consultations with neurologists and various scans.

Moving his dose from say 10mg to 5mg involves a consultation with a doctor with over a decades study under their belt.

... then we get to modern day ''educated'' drug culture, where its 'this is grand mdma is proven fine' go on bung a couple down.

if the likes of Parkinsons meds or epilepsy meds or other pills have to be so carefully prescribed lest your one and only brain be damaged, then why do people think they can just self medicate other brain altering substances with a margin of error of 'm'eh who knows'.

Actually that's pretty much exactly how they decide on dosage - it's an interaction of numerous toxicity indices which will have been established throughout the clinical trial process.
This "standard" dose might then be adjusted by patient based on body weight/composition and any other available knowledge on the status of how they metobolise certain drugs.
Medication for parkinson's or epilepsy is certainly not developed specifically by patient.

You're also making statements referring to certain drugs as if they're applicable to all drugs "Moving his dose from say 10mg to 5mg involves a consultation with a doctor " - that's literally only relevant to whatever drug he is taking and his prescribed dosage. For LSD dosage volumes are quite literally thousands of times less than that of cocaine.

To take the example you've provided, a 5mg variation in MDMA administered to a healthy adult would produce so little a difference in response as to be imperceptible - it is not correct to state that such a small variation in doseage can be the difference between fine and an overdose where this specific drug is concerned.

Balanadan

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Absolutely

No, moral absolution would depend on the nature of the law you chose to disobey.
Organised crime and environmental concerns need not come into it if you can secure your own supply - and regardless those concerns only arise as a result of prohibition.
(I'm sure the majority of users would be more than happy to see their drugs taxed and have that go back into the economy rather than to dealers. Government isn't interested in collecting from this huge revenue stream however and seem content with the current futile method of pissing money away on enforcement when 95% of the product will make it to the consumer one way or another)

You can absolutely choose to disobey laws, but you can’t have any complaint if you are punished for doing so. Let’s be honest here, recreational drugs aren’t a necessity, the issues surrounding them are well known so you can’t really absolve yourself of the implications if you choose to indulge, whether you agree with the law or not.

Are there many people who have secured their own supply of organic homemade eco-friendly cocaine and heroin from someone not involved in organised crime?

It’s no wonder that legalisation arguments are slow to gain traction when they’re put forward so poorly.

[Deleted User]

Balanadan wrote: »

You can absolutely choose to disobey laws, but you can’t have any complaint if you are punished for doing so. Let’s be honest here, recreational drugs aren’t a necessity, the issues surrounding them are well known so you can’t really absolve yourself of the implications if you choose to indulge, whether you agree with the law or not.

Are there many people who have secured their own supply of organic homemade eco-friendly cocaine and heroin from someone not involved in organised crime?

It’s no wonder that legalisation arguments are slow to gain traction when they’re put forward so poorly.

Are we speaking of absolution from the moral or legal question? Again you're conflating the two.

And fair enough man. For what it's worth you've contributed nothing constructive to the discussion bar "It's illegal" - and then you fail to recognise that most of your points against recreational drugs derive directly from their status as illegal.

Legalisation arguments never gain traction because of narrow minded dolts acting as if everything is set in stone, incapable of even imagining how things might change and be different to their entrenched view.

EmmetSpiceland

Everyone should have a healthy fear of drugs. I’ve no problem with people in their late teens/20s experimenting a little but they are illegal for a reason.

There are few things sadder than overweight grown men smoking hash all day in rooms with the curtains closed only playing computer games and watching cartoons or the ones on nights out who yo-yo back and forth from the toilets with red faces, sweating profusely and sniffing constantly.

These are the pitfalls that the casual user can fall into even if they don’t become full blown junkies, never growing up and never doing something with your life. Proper sad cases.

greencap

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Actually that's pretty much exactly how they decide on dosage - it's an interaction of numerous toxicity indices which will have been established throughout the clinical trial process.
This "standard" dose might then be adjusted by patient based on body weight/composition and any other available knowledge on the status of how they metobolise certain drugs.
Medication for parkinson's or epilepsy is certainly not developed specifically by patient.

You're also making statements referring to certain drugs as if they're applicable to all drugs "Moving his dose from say 10mg to 5mg involves a consultation with a doctor " - that's literally only relevant to whatever drug he is taking and his prescribed dosage. For LSD dosage volumes are quite literally thousands of times less than that of cocaine.

To take the example you've provided, a 5mg variation in MDMA administered to a healthy adult would produce so little a difference in response as to be imperceptible - it is not correct to state that such a small variation in doseage can be the difference between fine and an overdose where this specific drug is concerned.

we know that self prescription is a dangerous and stupid thing to do for legal drugs, yet for party drugs that logic disappears for some reason.

why is that?

i would take some mdma right now if there were some doctors and pharmacists giving me the okay.

would you take some commercially produced medications for alzheimers, parkinsons, or a heart condition in the absence of professional advice, if they had a reputation for a great buzz.

basically, any psychoactive substance going into my body must be preceded by trained professionals being involved.
i dont really discriminate on the substance, or consider any prior debate or public disagreement.

for me, every pill is a mystery, and im not trained in pharmacy so ill look to the professionals.

why others would have the perspective that a few mgs here or there doesn't really matter in relation to the brain, is beyond me.

tayto lover

They should just legalize everything and let them at it.
I really couldn’t care anymore as it’s been talked to death.
Just dont expect me as a taxpayer to contribute to getting them cured if they become addicted.

Balanadan

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Are we speaking of absolution from the moral or legal question? Again you're conflating the two.

And fair enough man. For what it's worth you've contributed nothing constructive to the discussion bar "It's illegal" - and then you fail to recognise that most of your points against recreational drugs derive directly from their status as illegal.

Legalisation arguments never gain traction because of narrow minded dolts acting as if everything is set in stone, incapable of even imagining how things might change and be different to their entrenched view.

Legality and morality are not the same thing, for the second time.

Come back to me when you have some valid points to discuss or can address any of the points I’ve made x

gctest50

greencap wrote: »

we know that self prescription is a dangerous and stupid thing to do for legal drugs, yet for party drugs that logic disappears for some reason.

why is that?

i would take some mdma right now if there were some doctors and pharmacists giving me the okay.

would you take some commercially produced medications for alzheimers or parkinsons, in the absence of professional advice, if they had a reputation for a great buzz.

basically, any psychoactive substance going into my body must be preceded by trained professionals being involved.
i dont really discriminate on the substance, or consider any prior debate or public disagreement.

for me, every pill is a mystery, and im not trained in pharmacy so ill look to the professionals.

why others would have the perspective that a few mgs here or there doesn't really matter in relation to the brain, is beyond me.

greencap wrote: »

basically, any psychoactive substance going into my body must be preceded by trained professionals being involved.

have no fear :

Cocaine was pumped out by Merck

Heroin production was refined by Bayer

[Deleted User]

greencap wrote: »

we know that self prescription is a dangerous and stupid thing to do for legal drugs, yet for party drugs that logic disappears for some reason.

why is that?

i would take some mdma right now if there were some doctors and pharmacists giving me the okay.

would you take some commercially produced medications for alzheimers, parkinsons, or a heart condition in the absence of professional advice, if they had a reputation for a great buzz.

basically, any psychoactive substance going into my body must be preceded by trained professionals being involved.
i dont really discriminate on the substance, or consider any prior debate or public disagreement.

for me, every pill is a mystery, and im not trained in pharmacy so ill look to the professionals.

why others would have the perspective that a few mgs here or there doesn't really matter in relation to the brain, is beyond me.

That's fair enough and you're dead right to exercise a healthy caution over anything going into your body.
My point mainly addresses the fact that a lot of people only avoid drugs because "sure you'd have no idea what's in it" - this is only a scenario that directly results from prohibition. Furthermore there are test kits available that allow you to test powders etc so you know what they are.

greencap

gctest50 wrote: »

have no fear :

Cocaine was pumped out by Merck

Heroin production was refined by Bayer

And that was in 1901 or something. what a completely sht, off point argument.

There really are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Hobosan

There's a good song on Barney the Dinosaur about struggling with fear. The general idea is that once you take the drugs, you realise it isn't as scary as your imagination let's on.

Though on Barney the song applied to things like the dentist and spiders, the idea of the song definitely applies to people in fear of drugs too.

My fear of drugs is non-existent.

chicorytip

Clark Uninterested Stretcher wrote:

But you won't die from a dab of mdma. You'll have a great time.

Undividual wrote:

It seems sad to me that people go through their whole lives without experiencing some form of transcendant state. I know there are dangers (depending on the individual and the drug) but in my experience the clichÃ©s about expanding your mind are true.

Cliches about expanding your mind with drug use hold no truth whatsoever but what is beyond doubt is the damage that all types of drugs - both legal and illegal - can cause to the body's vital organs even when consumed in small quantities. If you want to expand your mind get an education, experience fine literature, art, music, theatre, film. Experience foreign travel, different cultures. Eat a healthy diet and take regular exercise maaaaaannnnn!!

greencap

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

That's fair enough and you're dead right to exercise a healthy caution over anything going into your body.
My point mainly addresses the fact that a lot of people only avoid drugs because "sure you'd have no idea what's in it" - this is only a scenario that directly results from prohibition. Furthermore there are test kits available that allow you to test powders etc so you know what they are.

Its not just about quality though.

Its about quantity.

There is no ''standard'' person. So a ''standard'' ecstasy pill is pointless, and dangerous.

Pharmacists/doctors differentiate patient doses, you dont just go into the pharmacy and ask for 'substance X'.
You ask for 'substance X at a very specific dosage'.

A multitude of factors will have been considered. Age, weight, gender, blood pressure, other medications, medical history, and more.

Because to not measure the dose carefully could be very dangerous.

This of course isn't the case with ecstasy. You just get a bunch of somewhat standardized pills measured out arbitrarily. To ingest.

You don't know if you have an underlying condition that reacts to one of the ingredients, you don't know if medication you're on interacts with the ingredients, you don't know the potency of any given pill.

And thats a reason to fear drugs.

[Deleted User]

Balanadan wrote: »

Legality and morality are not the same thing, for the second time.

Come back to me when you have some valid points to discuss or can address any of the points I’ve made x

Nice one, deliberately misconstruing what I've said - I don't believe you're interested in having an intellectually honest discussion here but I actually have some manners so I'll persist and see can I engage with what you're purportedly saying.

As I said initially, legality and morality are not the same thing.

NO one cannot absolve oneselve of the legal implications of drug use if they are caught with illegal drugs.

YES they can absolve themselves from the moral question - there is nothing inherently morally reprehensible in consuming one substance to another, yes even if it is illegal. It's circular reasoning to cite drug dealers profiting etc as examples of why drugs are morally bad as these reasons derive directly from their designation as illegal.

Finally, I have addressed points you've made "The law is the law" and other such hardhitting gems, it's right there in the thread look for yourself.

Now, have you actually anything substantive to add to the discussion? (maybe we shouldn't be having this discussion at all though, as you pointed out drugs are illegal, so even talking about them is probably wrong) .

[Deleted User]

greencap wrote: »

Its not just about quality though.

Its about quantity.

There is no ''standard'' person. So a ''standard'' ecstasy pill is pointless, and dangerous.

Pharmacists/doctors differentiate patient doses, you dont just go into the pharmacy and ask for 'substance X'.
You ask for 'substance X at a very specific dosage'.

A multitude of factors will have been considered. Age, weight, gender, blood pressure, other medications, medical history, and more.

Because to not measure the dose carefully could be very dangerous.

This of course isn't the case with ecstasy. You just get a bunch of somewhat standardized pills measured out arbitrarily. To ingest.

You don't know if you have an underlying condition that reacts to one of the ingredients, you don't know if medication you're on interacts with the ingredients, you don't know the potency of any given pill.

And thats a reason to fear drugs.

I actually have a degree in pharmacology, thank you for the refresher though!

You're entirely correct regarding the importance of doseage when predicting individual drug responses - I mentioned it in a reply to one of your earlier posts in the thread, maybe you didn't see it

(I'll quote it below)

In response to your general point though, these are attributes of drugs to be feared which arise directly from their status as illegal. Standardised production procedures and dosage regimens would almost entirely negate any of the currently observed adverse effects of MDMA/ectasy (which is actually most commonly PMA/PMMA sold as MDMA).

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

Actually that's pretty much exactly how they decide on dosage - it's an interaction of numerous toxicity indices which will have been established throughout the clinical trial process.
This "standard" dose might then be adjusted by patient based on body weight/composition and any other available knowledge on the status of how they metobolise certain drugs.
Medication for parkinson's or epilepsy is certainly not developed specifically by patient.

You're also making statements referring to certain drugs as if they're applicable to all drugs "Moving his dose from say 10mg to 5mg involves a consultation with a doctor " - that's literally only relevant to whatever drug he is taking and his prescribed dosage. For LSD dosage volumes are quite literally thousands of times less than that of cocaine.

To take the example you've provided, a 5mg variation in MDMA administered to a healthy adult would produce so little a difference in response as to be imperceptible - it is not correct to state that such a small variation in doseage can be the difference between fine and an overdose where this specific drug is concerned.

gctest50

greencap wrote: »

Because to not measure the dose carefully could be very dangerous.

..........

So a "standard" pill from a trusted, reliable supplier is safer and better then ?

but then you say it isn't :

greencap wrote: »

So a ''standard'' ecstasy pill is pointless, and dangerous.

hmmmm

greencap

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

I actually have a degree in pharmacology

And if you have a degree in physics will it mean that cliff edges are no longer dangerous.

thank you for the refresher though!

starting to sound like you needed it

You're entirely correct regarding the importance of doseage when predicting individual drug responses

of course i am, its common sense, you don't need a qualification.

- I mentioned it in a reply to one of your earlier posts in the thread, maybe you didn't see it (I'll quote it below)

yes in your rambling digressive, obfuscating, mealy mouthed waffle fest.

Standardised production procedures and dosage regimens would almost entirely negate any of the currently observed adverse effects of MDMA/ectasy (which is actually most commonly PMA/PMMA sold as MDMA).

and do we have fuking standardized procedures and dosage regimens for street drugs.

no. we don't. genius.

so my initial point stands.

dartboardio

theteal wrote: »

Just not a lifestyle choice I'd want to make. Not my scene in the slightest. Huddled up in a toilet cubicle sniffing sh!t off the cistern sounds like a failed life to me.

It's clear as day how rampant coke is of late. My ITU nurse wife is bewildered at how people don't realise what they're doing to their bodies.

Funny you say that.. Drugs aren't only for the bottom of the barrel in life. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if your nurse wife has colleagues possibly on drugs

I've dabbled in ecstasy, mdma, coke over the years and occasionally get some coke.

The guy who sells it tells me an awful lot of stories about people in high professions buying lots from him. Solicitors.. Doctors.. Etc.

He actually told me a story about a solicitor who waived the charges in return for a decent amount of coke. Obviously i disagree completely with the moral of the story but there you go.

Today if you dabble in drugs it doesn't mean you're a scumbag etc. Its just so normal.

My next door neighbour.. From the outside looks like a hard working decent man from a respectful family with kids.

I bumped into him on a night out at a busy techno event a few months ago and the first thing he said to me having barely had a conversation before was 'would you like some coke' most likely just because I'm young.

As far as ecstasy goes. I truly don't believe there are 'bad batches' of pills. People die because they take too much in one go and don't know how to handle it or react. Over the years I like many others have taken ecstasy hundreds of times and never had a bad or dangerous experience.

Tester kits are the way to go i suppose

greencap

gctest50 wrote: »

So a "standard" pill from a trusted, reliable supplier is safer and better then ?

but then you say it isn't :

hmmmm

are you really arguing that street ecstasy from a random dealer is comparable to carefully timed, well reasoned doses from a phd who regularly undergoes government run professional assessment.

you might have a 'standard' 2mg, 5mg, 10mg, commercially produced medication/pill.

remind me again, what are the standard weights of yokes. you know, the ones that travelled to ireland in a serbians arse, and were made in wherever.

ffs.

SEPT 23 1989

Acid was the only one I could never really feel control fine coming up though

The rest of them easy total control

Alcohol is the one that will put you in a cell

dartboardio

Smoked weed for years and weed made me way more nervous and anxious and paranoid

Than any coke or mdma ever did.

gctest50

greencap wrote: »

are you really arguing that street ecstasy from a random dealer is comparable to carefully timed, well reasoned doses from a phd who regularly undergoes government run professional assessment.

you might have a 'standard' 2mg, 5mg, 10mg, commercially produced medication/pill.

remind me again, what are the standard weights of yokes. you know, the ones that travelled to ireland in a serbians arse, and were made in wherever.

ffs.

Nice and simple for you :

Would a "standard" pill, ( produced and packed to the same standards as something bought in your local pharmacy) be better ?

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

[Deleted User]

I've done more than my fair share but stopped everything including drinking last year. Yeah there's confirmation bias and yes there's a risk of coming across as holier-than-thou but seeing it completely from the outside really does give a different perspective. People who have to drink every weekend to have something to look forward to, people spending a few grand a year to be "level" on weed, it's all ****ty but until there are serious, obvious repercussions people won't accept there's an issue.

greencap

gctest50 wrote: »

Nice and simple for you :

Would a "standard" pill, ( produced and packed to the same standards as something bought in your local pharmacy) be better ?

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

A standard pill of what?

A standardized pill of ecstasy produced to govt guidelines would be a better ecstasy pill, yes.

And if this standardized pill was prescribed after examination by a medical professional then you'd have no reason to fear.

but since that has almost never happened in mankinds history there is still reason to fear drugs.

the drug may be fine for 85% of the public. you may be in 'reacts badly' category. you don't know.

greencap

The WitchKing of Angmar wrote: »

And why don't we have standardised procedures or dosage regimen for these drugs genius?

who cares.

this is how it is.

if you have an issue with why things are how they are, then go tell it to someone who cares.

Bigmac1euro

Hash- actually lovely not too intense lovely stone.

Weed - way too intense but I had some fun times, gladly don’t smoke either anymore as I think I may have over done it and my brain now says no.

Cocaine - Good, too expensive and really damaging to the organs, I feel mentally though it didn’t play any games with me. Very moreish all the same too addictive. Best off staying away.

Ecstasy - well, depending on the time or year it could have been a number of different things ingredients, my experience from one pill to the next has varied wildly. Deffo some good and some not so good buzzes.

MDMA crystals - tastes rank. But it is a good buzz much cleaner but then again I have done some lovely pills which beat mdma any day.

Ketamine- absolutely hilarious craic, can become intense though depending on the dosage. Dosage is important.

Heroin - no thanks

Mushrooms - would love to try.

Acid - lasts too long.

2cb - fun fun fun never laughed so much in my life, bit of a mouldy come down though.

Alcohol- my favourite but has gotten me in the most trouble of all the above. Another thing, alcohol come downs for me are sometimes the most mentally crushing things I’ve ever had to bare so I really feel alcohol can be seriously damaging mentally and maybe more so than coke (coke addicts not included).

Bath salts - vomit.

I’ve tried and tested a good bit. Dosage is the main thing. Be careful.
Try and know where the drugs you are getting are coming from and Who’s along the network they come from.
Tester kits!!!!!

And no my brain is not mush. The last few years I’ve actually felt sharper than ever and mentally exceptionally clear but maybe due to less alcohol and less of any of the above.

I had a bout of depression and extreme anxiety in my younger years for about a year but this was at the time I lost my mother and a massive change in my life happened.

Rarely do anything anymore. Getting a bit older now. Gladly still alive and relatively healthy. I like a drink at the weekend. But sometimes I won’t drink for weeks at a time depending on how I feel or how busy I am with work or whatever. Alcohol has a major negative effect on sleep.