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Child Item

School patronage

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From today's indo

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/parents-get-vote-to-take-schools-out-of-control-of-the-church-3233287.html

This is interesting. It is hard to assess this initiative based on the information in that article. Of course, personally I would prefer a complete removal of religious influence from state funded schools. However I am not sure that I am happy about this proposed survey. I can see many parents voting not to change purely based on "the devil you know" attitude. I wonder also is potentially divisive to make communities nail their colours to the mast publicly? I suppose it will depend on the detail of the survey.

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Geuze

tretorn wrote: »

Diarmuid Martin has offered to divest schools but he said there was no great demand for it and he was right.

Yes, it seems that the mgt of the RCC are ok with divesting schools, but the parents are not???

Of course the media will blame the RCC, as usual.

recedite

Geuze wrote: »

Later I taught girls from a convent, what a contrast.

Did they let any traveller children into the convent school?
Did they charge any fees? Maybe just enough to deter any scobes.
Teacher salaries and the main school costs to be borne by the taxpayer.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

The Catholic parents are taxpayers too and the best secondary schools are those which were set up by the Religious orders and they maintain the Catholic ethos today.

These schools are excellent because of the huge fundraising parents organise and they do this to make the education their children get the best possible. Why should these parents who want their local secondary school to be RC in ethos have to hand it over to the Government so it can appease athiests and people who hate the Catholic Church.

For the simple reason that it is not solely their school nor is it being solely funded by their taxes. It is being funded by all tax payers and the argument for divestment is one of proportionality, which even Diarmuid Martin agrees with. As things stand, Educate Together primary schools are considerably more oversubscribed than Catholic ethos schools and we can say that the citizens of this country would like to see more money spent on this type of education. Divestment is merely one mechanism of achieving this.

In terms of fair play, lets take a small example. Say we have a catchment area with 8 national schools, all Catholic ethos with an average of 400 students each, with 20% of the families preferring a non-religious ethos. That amounts to 640 students not getting their preferred choice of ethos, which is double the number affected by divesting a single school.

Personally I'm of the opinion that if the school boards and PTAs look to stonewall divestment, so be it. In this case, admittance numbers (and funds) for new students should be curtailed for these schools and this money should be spent on new schools that proportionately meet community demand. I'm not convinced a Catholic ethos school can be converted to a non-religious ethos without the staff and parents being 100% on board.

Mark Hamill

Geuze wrote: »

But the majority of schools will still be RC, reflecting the make-up of the population.

The majority of people in Ireland are not RC, and this is reflected in the results of the SSM and Abortion referendums.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

Ah, no, they do remember, they go to weddings and funerals in the local church and some of the churches now have parish centres attached and there are lots of evening activities going on.

People still like to buy mass cards too so they go to the parish office for that.

Many people like funerals because they love hymns so nothing beats a funeral on a morning when you have nothing to do.

And many young boys and girls love the big wad of money a communion or confirmation brings. Interesting to note that God and Jesus are absent from the argument, much as they seem to be from that of those who make the occasional foray into a church.

Mark Hamill

tretorn wrote: »

Why should these parents who want their local secondary school to be RC in ethos have to hand it over to the Government so it can appease athiests and people who hate the Catholic Church.

Because the RCC deserve the hate, for their decades (if not centuries) of abuse, rape, selling and murder of children in this country.
Even if the RCC did completely self fund the building and operation of all the schools in this country, they did so to entirely serve their purposes, to indoctrinate kids so that they can keep their power and influence on society. You yourself decried the supposed influence that Muslim groups in Ukraine have on their schools and yet champion the same type of control here, once it's from the RCC? Can you not see the hypocrisy?

What exactly would the problem be with teaching kids about as many religions as possible and letting them make up their own minds as adults?

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

The Uk are havingIn Ireland they have many problems with their schools. In some most areas entire schools are Muslim Catholic now because of white flight. The Educational standards are dire because of the amount of time learning the Koran Bible and within these school walls radicalisation indoctrination is taking place. The girls are treated as second class citizens

FYP. IMHO, Islam in the UK is basically like Catholicism here a few decades back. I'm guessing in a few decades time, it will be very similar to Catholicism in Ireland today.

tretorn

smacl wrote: »

FYP. IMHO, Islam in the UK is basically like Catholicism here a few decades back. I'm guessing in a few decades time, it will be very similar to Catholicism in Ireland today.

This sort of nonsense is so dangerous.

Islam is the Law in most Muslims countries, there is no separation between church and state so whatever is in the Koran is the rules people live under, hence the reason women are denied their rights and homosexuals can be put to death.

There is no comparison between the Muslim religion and the Catholic one. The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion in Europe, in Ireland alone about thirty per cent of the population will be Muslim in 2050. What do you think this means for your grand daughters and any of your relatives who may be gay.

Have you seen what is going on in the UK regarding the school curriculum, Muslim parents have effectively told the UK Government what is to be taught in State schools and they got their way.

At least here the Catholic Church has agreed there are too many National schools and now its a matter of deciding which schools will divest.

I think you should put the guessing in your pipe and smoke it, some people are actually watching and listening to whats going on and I prefer to heed their advice.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

FYP. IMHO, Islam in the UK is basically like Catholicism here a few decades back. I'm guessing in a few decades time, it will be very similar to Catholicism in Ireland today.

That's a bad mistake.

tretorn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The majority of people in Ireland are not RC, and this is reflected in the results of the SSM and Abortion referendums.

About forty per cent of the voters said No to same sex marriage, this was after months and months of the YES side getting positive coverage.

Over thirty per cent of the electorate said No to abortion, again in spite of months and months of non stop coverage in the media and the emphasis put on Fatal foetal abnormalities.

The HSE cant get family doctors to sign up to provide abortion, less than two hundred have done so so far even though you get twice as much money for providing abortion than you would get for the care of a woman for nine months of pregnancy.

Many, many Catholics voted for same sex marriage and abortion, voting for either of these options did not mean every single voter wasnt a Catholic. Many athiests would have voted against SSM and against abortion, it is too easy to point to these two referenda as proof that Catholicism is on the way out.

expectationlost

not sure about the usefulness of of putting a big question mark over a large number of schools, the gov doesn't want to build another for because of money and space, perhaps they could whittle it down, more first, look at which schools have the best infrastructure, maybe more school might need to be abandoned or merged in the future anyway aside from divestment. They should narrow it down on paper first. This is an overview of the schools in the area, is there a newer more detailed study of the area ? https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Areas-for-Possible-Divesting-of-Patronage-of-Primary-Schools.pdf

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

If you are saying there are plenty of white Irish children who are not Muslim then you are talking through your hat.

Why would any non muslim Irish parent choose a school where their daughters would be treated like second class citizens. The Muslim schools have also had dire Whole school evaluations and parents have access to these reports.

Its so utterly depressing driving through Clonskeagh and seeing those young Muslim women covered up from head to toe and pushing buggies, seriously, why on earth do we allow this in the twentieth century. Those face coverings should be banned outright in the public space.

we allow it because quite rightly, we believe that one has as much right to cover up, as much as they have a right to wear the skimpiest of clothes. yes, i would like muslim women who do not wish to cover up but feel they have to, to be able to get away from the mindset that enforces it. however i also recognise that some women wish to cover up and i support their right to do so. the authorities can ask them to remove their face covering should the authorities require such to happen, and i and i suspect a lot of people are happy with that. other then that, disliking the face covering is an individual person's issue.

Peregrinus

tretorn wrote: »

If you are saying there are plenty of white Irish children who are not Muslim then you are talking through your hat.

No, I'm saying there are plenty of white Irish children, which was a direct resonse to your claim that white Irish children would not be admitted. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty understanding this.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

The Catholic parents are taxpayers too and the best secondary schools are those which were set up by the Religious orders and they maintain the Catholic ethos today.

These schools are excellent because of the huge fundraising parents organise and they do this to make the education their children get the best possible. Why should these parents who want their local secondary school to be RC in ethos have to hand it over to the Government so it can appease athiests and people who hate the Catholic Church.

What has religion got to do about learning maths, science, languages?

I think you'll find the reason for your 'best school' is due to socio economic status than religion.... take a look at the results from ETB's in well to do areas if you wish.

BTW atheist teachers do the same courses as everyone else...and also students from atheist backgrounds or who have gone to Educate Together schools do just as well in the leavin cert when the go to religious secondary schools.

Nothing really has changed in some people's minds than when I went to school. If your parents were middle class/farmers you went to the religious voluntary schools up the road after primary... if they were unemployed or lived in state houses you went to the 'tech' down the road.... oh guess who got the best results? It must have been because of God....lol!

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

in Ireland alone about thirty per cent of the population will be Muslim in 2050.

Do you have a source for that rather bizarre assertion, because frankly I'd put more weight on the ruminations of Mystic Meg.

What do you think this means for your grand daughters and any of your relatives who may be gay.

What, like in Ireland in the 80s when it was still illegal to be gay? No grand daughters yet, but two teenage daughters, neither of whom distinguish their friends on the basis of race, religion or sexual orientation.

What you seem to be missing here is that most Muslims in the UK and Ireland tend to be moderate, if somewhat conservative. You're painting a picture where the entire Muslim population of the UK are radical fundamentalists, which is not the case by a long shot.

FWIW, I've worked and holidayed in a number of Muslim majority countries which in my experience by and large aren't that different to Christian majority countries.

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Er......

The Malahide survey of pre-school parents shows 26% want non-catholic education, there are 8 RC primary schools in the area so they should really be proposing to divest two, not one.

Problem is that all it needs to maintain the status quo is 51% of parents in each school. This is totally unfair on everyone else. It also takes into account only the views of the existing parents, not the far greater numbers of future parents.

I think this is the reason Diarmuid Martin publicly backs divestment, he knows it is so easy to block and make it look like it's not the church doing it.

majority rules is generally how such matters are handled.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The majority of people in Ireland are not RC, and this is reflected in the results of the SSM and Abortion referendums.

the problem is, many of the same people put catholic down on the census form. so while the result of those referendums should reflect what we actually know to be the case, they aren't really going to because not everyone votes whereas the census is compulsory, and the statistics of the census are the main stats used when it comes to planning of services and other government activities. whereas a referendum is only used to bring in a specific change.
while people who are not catholic continue to put catholic down on the census form, then they will continue to get catholic lead services. they can complain about it all they like but it is ultimately in their hands as to whether the catholic church continue to be involved in service provision.
i personally believe in secularism of schools and all else, however if enough people do not wish for this to happen then there is little that i can do, only hope that people see sense and stop claiming to be part of a religion they aren't part of, and stop using that religion when it suits them. so no communions or confirmations when you don't bother turning up to the church at any other time.

tretorn

smacl wrote: »

Do you have a source for that rather bizarre assertion, because frankly I'd put more weight on the ruminations of Mystic Meg.

What, like in Ireland in the 80s when it was still illegal to be gay? No grand daughters yet, but two teenage daughters, neither of whom distinguish their friends on the basis of race, religion or sexual orientation.

What you seem to be missing here is that most Muslims in the UK and Ireland tend to be moderate, if somewhat conservative. You're painting a picture where the entire Muslim population of the UK are radical fundamentalists, which is not the case by a long shot.

FWIW, I've worked and holidayed in a number of Muslim majority countries which in my experience by and large aren't that different to Christian majority countries.

I can take it that you are male so.

Thank You, next...........

The parents of the Danish and Norwegian girls who were beheaded in Morocco probably said their daughters were Pollyanna like too.

I prefer to think forewarned is forearmed so dont go holidaying without male company in majority Muslim countries unless you cover yourself head to toe the way the local women do.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

I can take it that you are male so.

Thank You, next...........

I am, though my wife has holidayed with me in a number of Muslim majority countries, rich and less well off, and got on very well with the locals on all occasions. I'm guessing your first hand experience is somewhat more limited.

So what about a source that assertion of yours about Ireland being 30% by 2050?

Mark Hamill

tretorn wrote: »

About forty per cent of the voters said No to same sex marriage, this was after months and months of the YES side getting positive coverage.

Over thirty per cent of the electorate said No to abortion, again in spite of months and months of non stop coverage in the media and the emphasis put on Fatal foetal abnormalities.

As 40% and 30% are less than the majority, my point stands and yours fall apart.

tretorn wrote: »

Many, many Catholics voted for same sex marriage and abortion, voting for either of these options did not mean every single voter wasnt a Catholic. Many athiests would have voted against SSM and against abortion, it is too easy to point to these two referenda as proof that Catholicism is on the way out.

Abortion and homosexuality are fundamental no-nos in Catholicism. If a person disagrees with the church position on those, to the point of voting against the teachings of the church in a referendum, then they are't Catholic in any meaningful way.

tretorn

Check it out yourself, I cant remember where I read it but we are already at 12% of the population being non national and thats only the ones here legally, we were probably 3% in 2000 so thats a 20% increase in less than twenty years. Most of the immigrants are Muslim and if Brexit goes through the numbers coming here will explode.

Its perfectly reasonable to plan for at least 30% of the population being Muslim in thirty years, France is a huge country in relation to us and the Muslim population there is at least 25%, there are whole areas in Paris and other big cities that are no go if you arent muslim.

The Muslim population is huge in the Uk too, any ethnic group that marries girls off very young will increase very quickly, it stands to reason, start having your family at seventeen and your could have grandchildren by thirty five. Start your family at thirty five and you are most likely into expensive fertility treatment and maybe lucky to have one child.

Anyway, lets get back to divesting all our schools of religion and then we will just have one big bland educational choice, just a race to the bottom.

tretorn

Mark Hamill wrote: »

As 40% and 30% are less than the majority, my point stands and yours fall apart.

Abortion and homosexuality are fundamental no-nos in Catholicism. If a person disagrees with the church position on those, to the point of voting against the teachings of the church in a referendum, then they are't Catholic in any meaningful way.

Why are you forcing your opinion of what it means to be Catholic on practicing Catholics.

Is that not a form of brainwashing.

Who gives you the right to decide if a persons religious beliefs are meaningful or not.

Hotblack Desiato

tretorn wrote: »

Islam is the Law in most Muslims countries

And catholicism used to be the law of the land here. Still has a large influence on our constitution, and laws around education e.g. a teacher who deconverts from catholicism can legally be sacked, even though it is a public sector role. We impose religious tests for public sector employment as a teacher in 96% of primary schools.

Our education system violates the human rights of parents, pupils and teachers on a daily basis.

there is no separation between church and state

In Ireland we are yet to achieve a separation between church and state.

in Ireland alone about thirty per cent of the population will be Muslim in 2050.

Which orifice did you pull that stat out of...?

Have you seen what is going on in the UK regarding the school curriculum, Muslim parents have effectively told the UK Government what is to be taught in State schools and they got their way.

Whereas here in Ireland, the RC church dictates what is to be taught and how.

Even in the Community National Schools, which are built by the State on State-owned land and supposedly not under church patronage, the RCC wrote the religious education syllabus, and religious indoctrination and segregation on religious grounds are part of the normal school day.

At least here the Catholic Church has agreed there are too many National schools and now its a matter of deciding which schools will divest.

If you really believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

tretorn wrote: »

Check it out yourself, I cant remember where I read it

how convenient for you.

but we are already at 12% of the population being non national

12% not born in Ireland. Most of whom were born in Britain (often of Irish descent), and most of the rest were born in the EU.

Most of the immigrants are Muslim

Most immigrants are not muslim.

Anyway, lets get back to divesting all our schools of religion and then we will just have one big bland educational choice, just a race to the bottom.

Have you ever actually been in an ET school or spoken with the teachers there?

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

Check it out yourself, I cant remember where I read it but we are already at 12% of the population being non national and thats only the ones here legally, we were probably 3% in 2000 so thats a 20% increase in less than twenty years. Most of the immigrants are Muslim and if Brexit goes through the numbers coming here will explode.

Its perfectly reasonable to plan for at least 30% of the population being Muslim in thirty years, France is a huge country in relation to us and the Muslim population there is at least 25%, there are whole areas in Paris and other big cities that are no go if you arent muslim.

The Muslim population is huge in the Uk too, any ethnic group that marries girls off very young will increase very quickly, it stands to reason, start having your family at seventeen and your could have grandchildren by thirty five. Start your family at thirty five and you are most likely into expensive fertility treatment and maybe lucky to have one child.

Anyway, lets get back to divesting all our schools of religion and then we will just have one big bland educational choice, just a race to the bottom.

In the absence of any source, I'll assume you just made the figure up so, and that it is utter nonsense. In case you weren't aware, both Britain and France were large colonial powers at one point which invaded a number of predominantly Muslim countries. These colonies were their source of immigrants, and also the reason that those immigrants were historically treated like second class citizens. The same was true for many emigrating from here to the UK, as characterized by the sentiment 'No Irish, no Blacks, no dogs'. It beggars belief that we'd echo these prejudices.

So yeah, lets get back to divesting schools and less of that nonsense.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

Anyway, lets get back to divesting all our schools of religion and then we will just have one big bland educational choice, just a race to the bottom.

Would you prefer if you had the same choice when you go to an A&E ?
....Catholic A&E
Muslim A&E
Atheist A&E
What's the big schwing about choice anyway?

Same for education...Why does there need to be choice? The subjects are all the same for the leaving cert, teachers all trained the same. What does a belief in a god bestow unto children?

Peregrinus

tretorn wrote: »

Check it out yourself, I cant remember where I read it but we are already at 12% of the population being non national and thats only the ones here legally, we were probably 3% in 2000 so thats a 20% increase in less than twenty years. Most of the immigrants are Muslim and if Brexit goes through the numbers coming here will explode.

Oh, for crying out loud. Your figure are pure fiction. Did you make them up yourself, or are you parroting nonsense that somebody saw you were stupid enough to accept unthinkingly?

In 2016, 17.2% of the population had been born outside the Republic of Ireland. The claim that "most of the immigrants are Muslim" is absurd; only 1.3% of the population were Muslims, and some of those had been born in Ireland. Of the 17.3% born outside the Republic, the largest number came from Poland, followed by the UK, Lithuania, Romania, Latvia, Brazil, Spain, Italy, France, Germany, India and the US, in that order.

tretorn

If you treat your women folk like second class citizens then spare me the whinging about being treated like second class citizens in Europe.

If you prefer to live in a ghetto so you can abide by your version of sharia law then its your fault that your children and grandchildren dont get a good education and dont integrate with the country they are living in. Lets forget about the historical conquest and the boring No Irish, no blacks, no dogs etc, this has nothing to do with where we are at now and where we are at is this tiny country on the edge of the atlantic absorbing enormous numbers of people whose ideology is completely different to ours.

The Muslims have built their own primary schools and are probably imparting an education which is at odds with the ideals of the society we live in, ie gender equality and rights for LGBT people. They are in the process of building their own secondary schools too so there are a lot of them here and they have a lot of money.

So we are going to divest our schools of religion and the culture that goes along with that and the Muslims are going to grow in numbers and build their schools to cater for their ethos free from the control of the Department of Education. And this is a good move for us, yeah, ok.

ETA, it doesnt matter how many fellow Europeans come into the country, they integrate and assimilate with us and are compatible with us. They also for the most part are happy with out education system and our hospital system. they arent demanding we remove crosses and cribs from our schools and hospitals. Also many of us like to work and travel in Europe so its reciprocal, who really wants to work and travel in Muslim countries, I mean who wants to risk going on holidays to Tunisia or Turkey and end up being machine gunned to death lying on a beach or worse going to Morocco and literally losing your head.

Mark Hamill

tretorn wrote: »

Why are you forcing your opinion of what it means to be Catholic on practicing Catholics.

Is that not a form of brainwashing.

Who gives you the right to decide if a persons religious beliefs are meaningful or not.

I'm not forcing anything, I'm only reiterating the Roman Catholic Church's stance on abortion and homosexuality. They get to make the rules, it being their club and all. If someone calls them self a Catholic, but doesn't actually follow the RCCs fundamental positions, then what makes them a Catholic? What does being a Catholic mean if it means nothing about what you believe?

smacl

evolving_doors wrote: »

Would you prefer if you had the same choice when you go to an A&E ?
....Catholic A&E
Muslim A&E
Atheist A&E
What's the big schwing about choice anyway?

Same for education...Why does there need to be choice? The subjects are all the same for the leaving cert, teachers all trained the same. What does a belief in a god bestow unto children?

I tend to agree but... All co-ed? Uniforms or not? Rigid prohibition of religion, as per French Laïcité, or a softer celebration of multiple traditions as per Educate together?

Geuze

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The majority of people in Ireland are not RC, and this is reflected in the results of the SSM and Abortion referendums.

https://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/pressreleases/2017pressreleases/pressstatementcensus2016resultsprofile8-irishtravellersethnicityandreligion/

Catholics are 78.3% of the pop.

Yes, many Catholics did vote for SSM and abortion, which in one sense is odd, but I like the way Irish Catholics are flexible in that way..............

Geuze

smacl wrote: »

What, like in Ireland in the 80s when it was still illegal to be gay?

It was never illegal to be gay.

Homosexual acts were illegal.

You could walk arm in arm with your gay partner up Grafton street, and that was not illegal.

If you think about it, you can't make being something illegal, but you can make doing something illegal.