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Child Item

School patronage

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From today's indo

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/parents-get-vote-to-take-schools-out-of-control-of-the-church-3233287.html

This is interesting. It is hard to assess this initiative based on the information in that article. Of course, personally I would prefer a complete removal of religious influence from state funded schools. However I am not sure that I am happy about this proposed survey. I can see many parents voting not to change purely based on "the devil you know" attitude. I wonder also is potentially divisive to make communities nail their colours to the mast publicly? I suppose it will depend on the detail of the survey.

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ifElseThen

tretorn wrote: »

Many of the “new Irish” are very religious and they choose RC schools in the absence of their own ethos. The Muslims want single sex schools so they choise RC schools too. The Muslims when they are numerous enough will build their own schools and you can whistle if you think white Irish children are going to get a place there.

Yeah religious minority schools are already exempt from the ban on prioritising members of their religion. So much for education opening minds, when pupils find themselves surrounded by kids of only the same faith.

All religious facets of education should be removed. If parents want their children to follow their nonsense, it should not be on the taxpayer's dime.

Secularise all religious schools, including RCC, Muslim & COI. Remove all religious instruction from school, replace with extra STEM.

Peregrinus

tretorn wrote: »

Many of the “new Irish” are very religious and they choose RC schools in the absence of their own ethos. The Muslims want single sex schools so they choise RC schools too. The Muslims when they are numerous enough will build their own schools and you can whistle if you think white Irish children are going to get a place there.

I'm familiar with the Muslim National School in Clonskeagh. There are plenty of "white Irish kids" in it.

tretorn

All our local primary schools are RC and they are great schools. They feed into the best secondary schools which are single sex and RC too, these are non fee paying.

There are a few Church of Ireland schools and they feed into private schools. You wont get a place in the small COI schools if you are Catholic but if there is space in the private school after all Protestant, Presbyterian and Methodist etc children have been accommodated you might get a last minute call.
I would be furious if my RC school divested, this means my children will have to go to a very poor community school for second level, this is a school no one wants.

If the Government wants primary schools to divest then it needs to guarantee parents that the school which divests doesnt lose its feeder status to the local RC secondary school and currently this will prove difficult.The secondary school will prioritise catholic children from the undivested school and the Government cant stop it doing that while the COI secondary school is preserving its ethos.

If you look at league tables its private single sex schools which come out on top along with single sex Gaelcolaistes. They will be followed by single sex RC schools and community non denominational schools lag far behind.

Odhinn

A third school in north county Dublin has sent a letter to parents warning of dire consequences if parents vote to change the ethos of the school in an upcoming ballot.

the WTF part -

St Sylvester’s in Malahide has told parents that a move away from Catholic patronage would mean that the school would no longer be able to celebrate the role of grandparents in children's lives, and it suggests that "safety on tours" may also be compromised.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0403/1040323-school_patronage/

Odhinn

tretorn wrote: »

The liberal anti catholic agenda is being pushed so much by the media that its exaggerating demand for non religious schools.

This is the result when individual schools are identified and then the reality dawns, the link between school, parish and GAA club is gone and thats not what parents want at all, seems the school staff dont want it either, maybe its a cosy set up between school management and the local clergy, who knows what the real opposition is.

I laughed when outraged Mum was interviewed this morning, her girl is making her communion soon and if the school divested she was going to have to tell her six year old son he wouldnt be making his, the drama of it!!!!!!!. He can make his communion any sunday he likes actually, it just wont be happening on school grounds.

There is going to be huge opposition no matter which schools are chosen, parents would have chosen the RC school above the ET and the RC school feeds into probsbly the best secondary school which may be single sex RC too.

Many of the “new Irish” are very religious and they choose RC schools in the absence of their own ethos. The Muslims want single sex schools so they choise RC schools too. The Muslims when they are numerous enough will build their own schools and you can whistle if you think white Irish children are going to get a place there.

Obsessed.

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

If the Government wants primary schools to divest then it needs to guarantee parents that the school which divests doesnt lose its feeder status to the local RC secondary school and currently this will prove difficult.

That is not difficult at all.

Dept.of Education would just ensure that all the primary schools in the locality are designated as the official feeder schools. The patron will try to change this to "all parish primary schools". But he who pays the piper calls the tune.

This kind of dispute has already been played out, for example here.

ifElseThen

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm familiar with the Muslim National School in Clonskeagh. There are plenty of "white Irish kids" in it.

White, Irish, Muslim no problem. White, Irish non-Muslim will not be admitted.

tretorn

ifElseThen wrote: »

Yeah religious minority schools are already exempt from the ban on prioritising members of their religion. So much for education opening minds, when pupils find themselves surrounded by kids of only the same faith.

All religious facets of education should be removed. If parents want their children to follow their nonsense, it should not be on the taxpayer's dime.

Secularise all religious schools, including RCC, Muslim & COI. Remove all religious instruction from school, replace with extra STEM.

Yes, lets send a few Department officials and the Minister for Education to Beijing, we could get a few ideas from China about how to deal with these religious nuts.

China has a policy of locking Muslims in gulags for "education and training", China doesnt want this ideology taking hold so this is their way of dealing with it.

Is it something like this you have in mind.

uptherebels

tretorn wrote: »

Yes, lets send a few Department officials and the Minister for Education to Beijing, we could get a few ideas from China about how to deal with these religious nuts.

China has a policy of locking Muslims in gulags for "education and training", China doesnt want this ideology taking hold so this is their way of dealing with it.

Is it something like this you have in mind.

How did you go from secularisation of schools to gulags?

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

China has a policy of locking Muslims in gulags for "education and training", China doesnt want this ideology taking hold so this is their way of dealing with it.

Is it something like this you have in mind.

No, he said "not be on the taxpayer's dime".
And I would add to that, we should not allow the likes of Saudi Arabia to fund the building of schools and mosques in this country either.
If there are local muslims, and they want segregated Islamic education, let them pay for it themselves.

tretorn

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm familiar with the Muslim National School in Clonskeagh. There are plenty of "white Irish kids" in it.

If you are saying there are plenty of white Irish children who are not Muslim then you are talking through your hat.

Why would any non muslim Irish parent choose a school where their daughters would be treated like second class citizens. The Muslim schools have also had dire Whole school evaluations and parents have access to these reports.

Its so utterly depressing driving through Clonskeagh and seeing those young Muslim women covered up from head to toe and pushing buggies, seriously, why on earth do we allow this in the twentieth century. Those face coverings should be banned outright in the public space.

Beechwoodspark

From my observations other than a very vocal minority that garner a lot of media coverage, there is little support for divestment of schools in Dublin and even less so in the rest of the country.

This current issue in malahide is a case in point.

Odhinn

tretorn wrote: »

Yes, lets send a few Department officials and the Minister for Education to Beijing, we could get a few ideas from China about how to deal with these religious nuts.

China has a policy of locking Muslims in gulags for "education and training", China doesnt want this ideology taking hold so this is their way of dealing with it.

Is it something like this you have in mind.

Yep, there's nothing like persecuting a relgion and its followers to wipe it out entirely.

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

Its so utterly depressing driving through Clonskeagh and seeing those young Muslim women covered up from head to toe and pushing buggies, seriously, why on earth do we allow this in the twentieth century. Those face coverings should be banned outright in the public space.

We allow it because we subcontract education (as a public service) out to other religions. Therefore we cannot, in fairness, exclude them from exploiting the same rotten system.

tretorn

recedite wrote: »

That is not difficult at all.

Dept.of Education would just ensure that all the primary schools in the locality are designated as the official feeder schools. The patron will try to change this to "all parish primary schools". But he who pays the piper calls the tune.

This kind of dispute has already been played out, for example here.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-resigns-from-greystones-school-over-admissions-row-1.3573122

The new school in Greystones is entitled to reserve 20% of its places for COI students, its a pretty big school so probably space at the moment for Catholic and athiest childrenn and whatever you are having yourself.

See the link posted to the sectarianism going on in the local national school.

Why should parents in Catholic schools agree to let outsiders take up places in their RC schools while parents of other ethos protect their own interests. Its every parent and child for themselves in a dog eat dog situation.

tretorn

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

From my observations other than a very vocal minority that garner a lot of media coverage, there is little support for divestment of schools in Dublin and even less so in the rest of the country.

This current issue in Malahide is a case in point.

Agree with you.

There is absolutely no desire in my area anyway.

The communion season is in full swing now and very few children will opt out of this ceremony. The ceremony will take place on a Saturday afternoon and the church will be full of extended families. The families will may their way back to the school for a party and the PTA will have put huge organisation into decorating the school and doing catering.

Diarmuid Martin has offered to divest schools but he said there was no great demand for it and he was right.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

If the Government wants primary schools to divest then it needs to guarantee parents that the school which divests doesnt lose its feeder status to the local RC secondary school and currently this will prove difficult.The secondary school will prioritise catholic children from the undivested school and the Government cant stop it doing that while the COI secondary school is preserving its ethos.

So what you're essentially saying here is that we should support religious discrimination at the tax-payers expense in the primary school sector in order to support further religious discrimination at the tax-payers expense in the secondary school sector? :rolleyes:

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

The ceremony will take place on a Saturday afternoon and the church will be full of extended families.

I surprised most of those extended families actually still remember where the church even is, going by current mass attendance rates.

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-resigns-from-greystones-school-over-admissions-row-1.3573122

The new school in Greystones is entitled to reserve 20% of its places for COI students.

No its not entitled to reserve 20% of its places.
My point is they would have liked to make the CoI parish schools (including those in Enniskerry and Newcastle as well as the local ones) the official feeder schools. But they were not allowed to. Only the local schools, and all the local schools, are designated as the feeder schools. Therefore they all have equal priority.

There is a separate issue with religious managed schools prioritising pupils on the basis of their religion, which still needs to be tackled.
AFAIK that was supposed to be outlawed in legislation passed by the Dail around two years ago. But legislation is apparently not "activated" until signed off by the relevant govt. minister. The current Minister of Ed. seems to have a problem with his pen; it seems to have run out of ink.

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

The communion season is in full swing now and very few children will opt out of this ceremony.

The timing of this very public spat is no coincidence.

tretorn

smacl wrote: »

So what you're essentially saying here is that we should support religious discrimination at the tax-payers expense in the primary school sector in order to support further religious discrimination at the tax-payers expense in the secondary school sector? :rolleyes:

The Catholic parents are taxpayers too and the best secondary schools are those which were set up by the Religious orders and they maintain the Catholic ethos today.

These schools are excellent because of the huge fundraising parents organise and they do this to make the education their children get the best possible. Why should these parents who want their local secondary school to be RC in ethos have to hand it over to the Government so it can appease athiests and people who hate the Catholic Church.

tretorn

smacl wrote: »

I surprised most of those extended families actually still remember where the church even is, going by current mass attendance rates.

Ah, no, they do remember, they go to weddings and funerals in the local church and some of the churches now have parish centres attached and there are lots of evening activities going on.

People still like to buy mass cards too so they go to the parish office for that.

Many people like funerals because they love hymns so nothing beats a funeral on a morning when you have nothing to do.

tretorn

ifElseThen wrote: »

Yeah religious minority schools are already exempt from the ban on prioritising members of their religion. So much for education opening minds, when pupils find themselves surrounded by kids of only the same faith.

All religious facets of education should be removed. If parents want their children to follow their nonsense, it should not be on the taxpayer's dime.

Secularise all religious schools, including RCC, Muslim & COI. Remove all religious instruction from school, replace with extra STEM.

And this sort of post will make parents who dont want to divest dig their heels in even more.

And after we finish with the schools do we then start purging all the hospitals too. Do we just acquire the hospitals owned by the religious orders even though they are very well run and bring in the HSE to take over every single hospital building in the State. Do we remove all the St Vincents etc from the hospital title and just call St Vincents Ballsbridge hospital. What about the private St Vincents, can we just tell the consultants we are changing the name of their hospital too.

Hotblack Desiato

tretorn wrote: »

seriously, why on earth do we allow this in the twentieth century.

Er......

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

From my observations other than a very vocal minority that garner a lot of media coverage, there is little support for divestment of schools in Dublin and even less so in the rest of the country.

This current issue in malahide is a case in point.

The Malahide survey of pre-school parents shows 26% want non-catholic education, there are 8 RC primary schools in the area so they should really be proposing to divest two, not one.

Problem is that all it needs to maintain the status quo is 51% of parents in each school. This is totally unfair on everyone else. It also takes into account only the views of the existing parents, not the far greater numbers of future parents.

I think this is the reason Diarmuid Martin publicly backs divestment, he knows it is so easy to block and make it look like it's not the church doing it.

Mark Hamill

tretorn wrote: »

And after we finish with the schools do we then start purging all the hospitals too.

Yes. And while we are at, we can purge the constitution of the rest of its religious nonsense too.

gaius c

tretorn wrote: »

Many of the “new Irish” are very religious and they choose RC schools in the absence of their own ethos. The Muslims want single sex schools so they choise RC schools too. The Muslims when they are numerous enough will build their own schools and you can whistle if you think white Irish children are going to get a place there.

I was going to query the source for the "many" and the generalisations about ALL Muslims but then I realised who I was responding to.

Geuze

tretorn wrote: »

I would be furious if my RC school divested, this means my children will have to go to a very poor community school for second level, this is a school no one wants.

Yes, at second-level there already are State-owned schools, i.e. ETB schools.

People calling for all schools to be State owned seem to want all schools to be ETB schools.

I don't see a huge demand for the local ETB school in my area.

Indeed, I have heard reports of thuggish behaviour by the children in one ETB school, e.g. throwing chairs at the teachers.

I taught some ETB students once, you could sense the apathy off them. Later I taught girls from a convent, what a contrast.

And this is what some people want more of???

I hope for a Jesuit education for my children. (although it's unlikely to happen)

tretorn

Respond away or dont if you dont want to, who cares.

We need to hold firm on the demands of Muslims in relation to our schools, as in dont give an inch.

The Uk are having many problems with their schools. In some areas entire schools are Muslim now because of white flight. The Educational standards are dire because of the amount of time learning the Koran and within these school walls radicalisation is taking place. The girls are treated as second class citizens, they get breaks and lunch when the boys have finished and the schools are totally segregated with access to music and dance etc banned.

When we succeed in removing the RC religion from our schools then the danger is what fills the vaccuum.

Geuze

tretorn wrote: »

And this sort of post will make parents who dont want to divest dig their heels in even more.

And after we finish with the schools do we then start purging all the hospitals too. Do we just acquire the hospitals owned by the religious orders even though they are very well run and bring in the HSE to take over every single hospital building in the State. Do we remove all the St Vincents etc from the hospital title and just call St Vincents Ballsbridge hospital. What about the private St Vincents, can we just tell the consultants we are changing the name of their hospital too.

Nuns built the Mater, St. Vincents, and many more hospitals.

I can tell you they didn't have hundred million euro cost overruns!!!

Why not let the nuns develop the NCH???

Geuze

tretorn wrote: »

The liberal anti catholic agenda is being pushed so much by the media that its exaggerating demand for non religious schools.

Correct.

Real people in real towns accept the need for more diversity in patronage.

But the majority of schools will still be RC, reflecting the make-up of the population.