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Why do people self-segregate a lot by gender in Ireland?

noubliezjamais

Something that I've noticed confirmed by two friend from France and Canada. They say that they find it peculiar that in general, Irish men and women in school/workplace tend to group themselves by their gender morseo than other western nations.

I have to agree with them. Even though we are friendly, there's still can be a barrier between men and women who are friends that you don't see in other nations. Is it the Catholicism?

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meeeeh

I have no empirical data but yeah my feeling would be that groups of friends where I grew up would be more mixed than here. All my groups of friends in primary school, secondary school, university and later were mixed.

Anteayer

corminators wrote: »

I actually don't think men and women can work closely together on teams in the workplace. This is from experience of several places.

I've worked with very mixed gender teams all through my career and extremely closely with both male and female colleagues and that's absolutely never even crossed my mind. Brilliant team mates both male and female and some of my best friends were made at work too and are both genders and both are great craic to work with.

The only time I ever had an issue was with a team that was entirely women and I was the only guy and they made it very clear that I was the "outsider". In this case it was a marketing department that had been just seen as "the girls" by management in a very old company.

I could see that being tough for women breaking into industries that were extremely male dominated historically too.
It's not even necessarily a gender thing but more so that you're different thus not part of the gang.

I do think you get issues where you've bunkers of one gender only though and you can get that within some very traditional or old business where you'll find "the girls" are all in administration and "the lads" are all in warehouse stacking" or something like that and then you basically end up with a clash of two gangs based on gender because they don't socialise and interact other than in a very narrow way.

You get odd cultures in some work places like that.

Generally I find people are people - you'll get asshats of both genders.

is_that_so

Is this something else we're all doing wrong? Strikes me as more of an angsty teenager question. You spend time with people you like or feel comfortable with.

IAMAMORON

I find my lack of interest in female fashion, cosmetics and hairdressing a distinct disadvantage when it comes to generating and nurturing friendships with females in Ireland. It has always been difficult to spark up much in common with them. I also can't stand flower arranging and have zero interest in dogs which are smaller than your average domestic cat. I cannot stand phrases such as, " you go girl" or " wow, your shoes are gorge ! ". I found 50 shades of grey boring and a very lame sexual fantasy. This is definitely a barrier to friendship I find.

Maybe men in other countries are interested in the lifestyles of Irish women, we just cannot be sure. Time will tell.

When I get close to a women, even if we start out as platonic friends ( ahem, yeah right ), I always end up with the complete and utterly undefeatable desire to have sex with them. Now I cannot speak for every Irish male in this instance, but it definitely happens to a lot of us.

Please don't change, women of Ireland, I love you all.

Anteayer

I do think educating kids separated by gender is a total anachronism and way out of line with what's been going on in almost every other developed country. It's just down to an Irish obsession with a version of 19th century English style education that was absorbed by the church and never modernised.

Irish conservatism tends to be a weird mix of a very British Victorian almost puritanical ideology in some kind of odd hybrid with a very conservative type of Catholicism.

[Deleted User]

Any thread on gender here just seems to attracts the weirdest people

is_that_so

Anteayer wrote: »

I do think educating kids separated by gender is a total anachronism and way out of line with what's been going on in almost every other developed country. It's just down to an Irish obsession with a version of 19th century English style education that was absorbed by the church and never modernised.

Irish conservatism tends to be a weird mix of a very British Victorian almost puritanical ideology in some kind of odd hybrid with a very conservative type of Catholicism.

Some people choose that option for post-primary on the grounds of quality or the perceived educational benefit.

Anteayer

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I find my lack of interest in female fashion, cosmetics and hairdressing a distinct disadvantage when it comes to generating and nurturing friendships with females in Ireland. It has always been difficult to spark up much in common with them. I also can't stand flower arranging and have zero interest in dogs which are smaller than your average domestic cat. I cannot stand phrases such as, " you go girl" or " wow, your shoes are gorge ! ". I found 50 shades of grey boring and a very lame sexual fantasy. This is definitely a barrier to friendship I find.

Maybe men in other countries are interested in the lifestyles of Irish women, we just cannot be sure. Time will tell.

When I get close to a women, even if we start out as platonic friends ( ahem, yeah right ), I always end up with the complete and utterly undefeatable desire to have sex with them. Now I cannot speak for every Irish male in this instance, but it definitely happens to a lot of us.

Please don't change, women of Ireland, I love you all.

Are you sure you actually know any women?!?
Unless you're hanging around with 97 year olds at the church hall, not many are into flower arranging!!
Also small dogs?!

Are you sure you're not hanging out with the two lads from Little Britian doing the "we're ladies" sketch?!

Most of the women I know have diverse interests...

Anteayer

is_that_so wrote: »

Some people choose that option for post-primary on the grounds of quality or the perceived educational benefit.

The fact that some people chose it doesn't mean it's particularly beneficial or normal by developed country standards and time and time again it's pointed out that they usually pluck comparisons between UK Comprehensive Schools and UK Independent schools which are traditionally way more academically focused anyway and conclude the reason for the performance difference is single gender.

I just think many in Ireland have an extremely archaic view of what education is.

IAMAMORON

Anteayer wrote: »

Are you sure you actually know any women?!?
Unless you're hanging around with 97 year olds at the church hall, not many are into flower arranging!!
Also small dogs?!

Are you sure you're not hanging out with the two lads from Little Britian doing the "we're ladies" sketch?!

Most of the women I know have diverse interests...

Diverse women really interest me, it's their interests which are bland...…

I don't go to church either.

[Deleted User]

I'm starting to wonder if it's a class or education or intelligence thing? Most of the stupid posts here complaining about the opposite gender suggest they don't have much contact with people with a proper range of interests

Anteayer

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Diverse women really interest me, it's their interests which are bland...…

I don't go to church either.

You've a great username. Saves a lot of time.

Day Lewin

I've found the same in Australia: at social gatherings the ladies congregated one end, and the men the other.

The conversation wasn't great in either group, to be honest.

IAMAMORON

Anteayer wrote: »

You've a great username. Saves a lot of time.

Hey.. that's not very friendly ?

Anteayer

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Hey.. that's not very friendly ?

It's nice and short and easy to remember

is_that_so

Anteayer wrote: »

The fact that some people chose it doesn't mean it's particularly beneficial or normal by developed country standards and time and time again it's pointed out that they usually pluck comparisons between UK Comprehensive Schools and UK Independent schools which are traditionally way more academically focused anyway and conclude the reason for the performance difference is single gender.

I just think many in Ireland have an extremely archaic view of what education is.

Really not true at all. It actually depends what bit of research you read. There is enough to support opting for either stance from an educational point of view and there is no definitive conclusion. Ultimately it comes down to quality and what a parent feels or believes will work best for their child.

Anteayer

I'd argue it's a bit unfair to remove kids from a balance of normal society.

neris

who do the ladyboys & gender neutrals etc hang out with?

One eyed Jack

Anteayer wrote: »

I'd argue it's a bit unfair to remove kids from a balance of normal society.

Well you could argue that. I’m just not sure anyone who has children would care what you think is or isn’t ‘fair’ for their children.

There are all sorts of circumstances in what you call ‘normal society’ where people are assigned to separate categories on the basis of their sex. Imagine you’re a male who cannot compete with other males in elite sports for example so you decide to compete with women where there’s a slightly better chance you might actually win a competition at some stage. Most people wouldn’t give a fig either way, but for some people, they see it as ‘unfair’ that males are now permitted to compete in female sports.

*shrugs*

Anteayer

It's a lot different from removing kids from the normally environment of having males and females for most of their lives from age 4 to 18.

Males and females don’t have a situation where they’re differently able in academic contexts. Men are generally bigger and more more muscular than woman (by 10% on average) so you’ve an issue in elite support, but that doesn’t cross into academic ability in anyway and there’s tons of psychological measurement of those abilities to back that up.

The Irish 30%+ of public schools being gender segregated is very weird by international norms and if you’re in some areas, notably central Dublin coeducational options are few and far between.
That's actually become a big issue now for parents in areas like Dublin 8 and Stoneybatter. You've areas that were quite traditional and have a lot of single sex chills and now you've a population that's got an expectation of being able to access 21st century education, yet is faced with lots of options, all of which are traditional religious ethos single sex schools.

The notion that parents have lots of choices here is largely false. Your choices are limited by geography and also your choices can be you can have any type of school you like from this selection where 93% of them are religious ethos and 90% are Catholic.

One eyed Jack

Anteayer wrote: »

It's a lot different from removing kids from the normally environment of having males and females for most of their lives from age 4 to 18.

I wouldn’t consider an institution a normal environment in the first place tbh, but since it’s important to take context into consideration, these are educational institutions we’re talking about where the teaching staff are predominantly female, as opposed to historically the predominant sex involved in children’s education were male. I could get into asking what you consider a normal environment for children, but it appears that what is or isn’t normal is determined by context, which is entirely subjective.

Males and females don’t have a situation where they’re differently able in academic contexts. Men are generally bigger and more more muscular than woman (by 10% on average) so you’ve an issue in elite support, but that doesn’t cross into academic ability in anyway and there’s tons of psychological measurement of those abilities to back that up.

That seems to be what this entire discussion about single sex vs unisex education is based upon - the idea that girls and boys learn in different ways and thrive in different educational environments. As it turns out, there are professions which are dominated by one sex or the other, so the idea of single-sex education not being a reflection of society simply couldn’t be further from the truth. In reality - it depends upon context.

The Irish 30%+ of public schools being gender segregated is very weird by international norms and if you’re in some areas, notably central Dublin coeducational options are few and far between.
That's actually become a big issue now for parents in areas like Dublin 8 and Stoneybatter. You've areas that were quite traditional and have a lot of single sex chills and now you've a population that's got an expectation of being able to access 21st century education, yet is faced with lots of options, all of which are traditional religious ethos single sex schools.

By “international norms”, do you mean in the context of just European countries, or are you actually considering a global perspective? Because if you’re just talking about a European context, you’d be wrong, as 30% single sex schools is about the norm for most European countries, and from a global perspective? I’m not sure you could be more wrong as there are plenty of countries where single-sex education is the predominant means of education as opposed to unisex or coed education.

What you actually have in Ireland already in reality is 21st century education. Maybe you’re confusing 21st century Irish education with 21st century Islam or Feminism where children are taught that boys are dangerous and girls should be made aware of this, backed up by this kind of stuff -

The director of the Rape Crisis Network Ireland said it found that almost 40% of children who were victims of sexual violence were abused by another child.

If that’s considered normal, I’m not sure why anyone would want their children being taught those sorts of ideas In school, unless it was something the parents themselves already believed about either themselves or the opposite sex.

The notion that parents have lots of choices here is largely false. Your choices are limited by geography and also your choices can be you can have any type of school you like from this selection where 93% of them are religious ethos and 90% are Catholic.

And 70% are coed.

meeeeh

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By “international norms”, do you mean in the context of just European countries, or are you actually considering a global perspective? Because if you’re just talking about a European context, you’d be wrong, as 30% single sex schools is about the norm for most European countries, and from a global perspective? I’m not sure you could be more wrong as there are plenty of countries where single-sex education is the predominant means of education as opposed to unisex or coed education.

Us that wishful thinking or do you actually have any stats to support that.

As far as I know single sex countries are most common in Muslim countries and British colonies. And very few in the rest of Europe.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Human nature.

One eyed Jack

meeeeh wrote: »

Us that wishful thinking or do you actually have any stats to support that.

As far as I know single sex countries are most common in Muslim countries and British colonies. And very few in the rest of Europe.

Interactive map of Europe, gives a pretty good breakdown of the different single sex schools at different levels and whether they are funded publicly, privately, or a mix of both public and private funding, when you click on each country -

http://www.easse.org/en/europe/

You’d be right about former British colonies and Muslim countries too, but my point was really that the discussion as to which type of education, whether it’s single sex or unisex was better for children and for society, predates Christianity or Catholicism by a few centuries at least.

Franz Von Peppercorn

baby and crumble wrote: »

TBH it's something I've never understood. I went to mixed primary & secondary schools, and the idea of a single sex school or work environment is so odd to me.

Like Eviltwin said, the amount of people who freak out about their partner having a drink after work with a member of the opposite sex is crazy. Or having a friend of the opposite sex. Etc etc. You see it in PI all the time.

How many close female friends would an average married guy have? Not that many, or none. I'd have been surprised if my Dad's best friend was a woman growing up.

In certain times of life, yes, there is a larger mixed group. In fact my group is often mixed as my GF is friends with another friend's wife, and there are other intersections as well. I'd prefer a lads night out many a night but one or two of my once partying male friends are on a tight leash.

Mixed groups isn't the same as strong friendships between the sexes. Thats rare as people age.

I don't think its unique to Ireland, nor anything to do with single sex schools. After all many Irish urban dwellers ( cities an small towns) grow up in housing estates where the population of children is mixed.

meeeeh

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Interactive map of Europe, gives a pretty good breakdown of the different single sex schools at different levels and whether they are funded publicly, privately, or a mix of both public and private funding, when you click on each country -

http://www.easse.org/en/europe/
.

Sweden is one of countries with single sex public education according that map. Six weeks in one school.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/after-40-years-of-mixed-education-swedish-school-ruffles-feathers-with-singlesex-classes-554892

Slovenia is on a list and I don't which schools exactly are they talking about. Only single sex education I came accros was separate Sunday school classes for my year because they couldn't control us. PE was also segregated but that's about it.

That map is more wishful thinking than any serious look at segregated education. Not to mention 30%.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Anteayer wrote: »

The fact that some people chose it doesn't mean it's particularly beneficial or normal by developed country standards and time and time again it's pointed out that they usually pluck comparisons between UK Comprehensive Schools and UK Independent schools which are traditionally way more academically focused anyway and conclude the reason for the performance difference is single gender.

I just think many in Ireland have an extremely archaic view of what education is.

Again, though, it should be clear that if single sex schools were detrimental to academic performance then private schools probably wouldn't have them. There might be plenty of reasons why girls in particular do better in single sex schools, less hormones and harassment from the boys, more ability to speak up in class (boys being more aggressive). Of course the curriculum should be the same.

Paulzx

The solution is mandatory pupil gender quotas in single sex schools.

Er...

sorry. I thought gender quotas were the solution to everything now

Franz Von Peppercorn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Interactive map of Europe, gives a pretty good breakdown of the different single sex schools at different levels and whether they are funded publicly, privately, or a mix of both public and private funding, when you click on each country -

http://www.easse.org/en/europe/

You’d be right about former British colonies and Muslim countries too, but my point was really that the discussion as to which type of education, whether it’s single sex or unisex was better for children and for society, predates Christianity or Catholicism by a few centuries at least.

Well muslim countries reverse the trend, private schools are mixed, public schools are segregated.

One eyed Jack

meeeeh wrote: »

Sweden is one of countries with single sex public education according that map. Six weeks in one school.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/after-40-years-of-mixed-education-swedish-school-ruffles-feathers-with-singlesex-classes-554892

Slovenia is on a list and I don't which schools exactly are they talking about. Only single sex education I came accros was separate Sunday school classes for my year because they couldn't control us. PE was also segregated but that's about it.

That map is more wishful thinking than any serious look at segregated education. Not to mention 30%.

No it isn’t? It’s classified as “Existence of single-sex education programmes in public schools”, and I wouldn’t just pick out one school as evidence of a whole lot? So what? There’s plenty of international evidence to suggest that Sweden’s education system has been in decline for years -

Benchmarking internationally

The quality of Swedish education has been keenly debated over the past decade, following declining results among Swedish students in international comparisons. Sweden has moved to improve performances and to raise the status of the teaching profession for long-term benefits.

International studies such as Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) and Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) have indicated a deteriorating performance among Swedish children in recent years.

Most recently, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which is behind the PISA assessment, followed up on the trends in May 2015 with a detailed review of Sweden’s educational quality.

The study, done on the request of the Swedish Government, confirms that Sweden needs to improve the quality of education and in particular raise the performance level of students in reading, math and science. This can be seen in light of Sweden having invested a larger share of its GDP on education (6.8 per cent) compared with the OECD average (5.6 per cent) in 2014.

Education In Sweden

This is exactly why I’m not depending upon your own experience of education in Slovenia or any other European countries for that matter. By that standard the only co-ed I came across is what we used call “The Tec”, and they were considered by some people to be schools for academic underachievers. I don’t adhere to that belief though because I know they’re simply a different type of education. The fact that the top 10 schools in Ireland are dominated by single-sex schools is measured by a different standard.

In case you want evidence for that too -

The Top Secondary Schools in Ireland Have Been Revealed