Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Precisely, depending on the inverter you get you can power up to 5kwh. I would likely put the sockets, lights and gas/oil boiler on the UPS. However I would split the sockets for the washing machine and dryer etc and put them on the grid side as they would draw far too much power from batteries.

So in the event of a power outage I couldn't use the cooker, immersion, washer, dryer or charge my car. But I can still watch t.v. and have lights etc on if I've enough battery to do so.

Just as an FYI that inverter allows you to set a battery limit where the inverter will not allow the battery drop below a certain percentage in order to keep it for the UPS.

Edit: all of the above is conditional on actually getting a house , hopefully this year!

The isolator is likely just a manual isolator then for maintenance purposes and not an automated one when the grid goes down.

unkel wrote: »

I'd bet money he is telling you porky pies

You need a DC isolator between the panels and the inverter alright. But it is dumb. It's just a manual switch.

Or maybe he misunderstood what the inverter was capable of and has implemented it wrong?!

KCross wrote: »

Or maybe he misunderstood what the inverter was capable of and has implemented it wrong?!

Yes that crossed my mind too. But I've dealt with a few SEAI approved solar PV installers myself recently, and with some of them, their grasp of stuff was shocking (see what I did there?

). And that's coming from me, a complete novice in this area, not particularly good at DIY and with little to no education or experience in this field. So it wouldn't suprise me at all if they told him porky pies.

KCross wrote: »

The isolator is likely just a manual isolator then for maintenance purposes

Yes. Imagine you have a 4kwp string of 13 or 14 panels in series going into the inverter. That's 400V or so. Connecting or disconnecting the inverter can cause arcs thus a serious risk of fire. Switching the DC disconnect to "off" will safely let you unplug the DC cables going into the inverter.

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Precisely, depending on the inverter you get you can power up to 5kwh. I would likely put the sockets, lights and gas/oil boiler on the UPS. However I would split the sockets for the washing machine and dryer etc and put them on the grid side as they would draw far too much power from batteries.

So in the event of a power outage I couldn't use the cooker, immersion, washer, dryer or charge my car. But I can still watch t.v. and have lights etc on if I've enough battery to do so.

Just on that specific point. I think you'd need to get some more input from an electrician on that. I dont think they'd be able to put all the sockets and lights on that circuit, if thats what you meant(notwithstanding washer, dryer being excluded)?

If you look at any consumer unit you have multiple MCB's for lights and likewise for the sockets. They have to account for diversity and how many lights and socket circuits they could hang off that 5kW feed would be limited I'd say.

You might have to be much more specific in what circuits in the house can be powered off it.

KCross wrote: »

If you look at any consumer unit you have multiple MCB's for lights and likewise for the sockets. They have to account for diversity and how many lights and socket circuits they could hang off that 5kW feed would be limited I'd say.

The multiple MCB setup for lights alone in different parts of the house is probably a legacy from when we all had several hundred watts of light alone in each room with the old incandescent bulbs.

Personally I'm not going to re-wire anything in my house for an essentials load system. It will be very unlikely and rare you will ever need that in the Dublin area anyway, with the grid down for several hours (has happened only once in the near 20 years I'm in my home)

I was thinking of installing a single outdoors waterproof socket (that I normally wouldn't use) - the inverters are all outdoors. And then hook up a 25m extension lead into the house when the grid goes and just plug essentials in it (like TV, fridge, internet router and phone charger - total just a few hundred watts)

unkel wrote: »

The multiple MCB setup for lights alone in different parts of the house is probably a legacy from when we all had several hundred watts of light alone in each room with the old incandescent bulbs.

I don’t think so. My house is less than 10yrs old and has only ever had LEDs and I have multiple MCBs.

It’s more the sockets than the lights really though. Theoretically every socket can take 13A. You couldn’t put all those on one circuit.

KCross wrote: »

Just on that specific point. I think you'd need to get some more input from an electrician on that. I dont think they'd be able to put all the sockets and lights on that circuit, if thats what you meant(notwithstanding washer, dryer being excluded)?

If you look at any consumer unit you have multiple MCB's for lights and likewise for the sockets. They have to account for diversity and how many lights and socket circuits they could hang off that 5kW feed would be limited I'd say.

You might have to be much more specific in what circuits in the house can be powered off it.

So my brother was an electrician and is now an electrical engineer, I've had a good few in depth conversations with him about it. He suggested to rewire the consumer unit to have the UPS feed connected to one bus bar with the relevant consumer protection for each circuit, all separate to the grid.

When there is power on the grid side it passes through the inverter so wouldn't be limited to the 5kwh etc, however he said he'd look at what rating the cabling and relay could take in the inverter when it comes to the proper planning phase.
So essentially when on grid power the UPS connected circuits are like any other but when UPS power I would have to be careful of overloading the inverter, although there is a built in alarm as a warning, the unit will only sustain damage if it is frequently overloaded for long periods of time.

KCross wrote: »

I don’t think so. My house is less than 10yrs old and has only ever had LEDs and I have multiple MCBs.

And brand new houses are probably still the same. My point is (and I'm speculating here, I don't actually know this for sure) is that the multiple MCB setup is some sort of standard / regulation that was set decades ago.

And indeed. Plug in a kettle into every socket within one group and the MCB for that group will trip immediately

Evd-Burner wrote: »

When there is power on the grid side it passes through the inverter so wouldn't be limited to the 5kwh etc

That's interesting. So the essential loads AC output of the inverter gets powered from the grid unless the grid is down?

I could then actually use my outside socket for say a 2kW power washer without having to worry about the battery (and emptying it in no time)

Yes, you would need to be careful. Something as simple as someone boiling a kettle could be enough to trip the whole thing over the edge.

Personally i wouldn’t take the chance. I’d put 3 or 4 specific sockets on the circuit and the lights and leave it at that. The potential to mess it up is too high imo.

And as unkel has said, for the number of times you’d need it is it worth risking it, even if a spark is willing to wire it that way for you?

Evd-Burner wrote: »

So my brother was an electrician and is now an electrical engineer, I've had a good few in depth conversations with him about it. He suggested to rewire the consumer unit to have the UPS feed connected to one bus bar with the relevant consumer protection for each circuit, all separate to the grid.

When there is power on the grid side it passes through the inverter so wouldn't be limited to the 5kwh etc, however he said he'd look at what rating the cabling and relay could take in the inverter when it comes to the proper planning phase.
So essentially when on grid power the UPS connected circuits are like any other but when UPS power I would have to be careful of overloading the inverter, although there is a built in alarm as a warning, the unit will only sustain damage if it is frequently overloaded for long periods of time.

I had a look at the spec sheet you posted. It has the rated current for the ac backup at 13A even for the 5kW inverter so there is no way you will be able to put a whole load of sockets and lights on that circuit. You’ll have to be much more selective.

KCross wrote: »

I had a look at the spec sheet you posted. It has the rated current for the ac backup at 13A even for the 5kW inverter

Just doublechecked, my own AC battery inverter (Sofar ME3000SP) outputs 3kW on both the normal AC output and on the emergency power supply

Interestingly, the emergency power supply has a peak power of 50% higher than the continuous power of 3kW (the normal AC doesn't have a higher peak power output). Only for 10 seconds though.

Linky

KCross wrote: »

I had a look at the spec sheet you posted. It has the rated current for the ac backup at 13A even for the 5kW inverter so there is no way you will be able to put a whole load of sockets and lights on that circuit. You’ll have to be much more selective.

Just double checked there, yeah your right. It's 15amp on the backup so about 3kw. But realistically you'd only be able to go to 13amp.

When I first checked I must have only looked at the grid output data. My bad, to be fair to the brother I haven't actually given him any of the data sheets for the inverter, just having high level discussions.

When it comes to properly planning things I'll have to look at what's possible. At the soonest it will be a year away, 2 at longest so by then there may be a unit with a higher UPS output.

Is it for a new house you are self building?

In an outage scenario I’d be thinking all you need is the fridge, internet, one tv, a few lights and water pump (if you have your own well) and then one or two other sockets for charging phones.

All that should “fit” into 13A.

Anything after that is pushing the boat out and not really needed.

You’d also want that backup power to last for as long as possible so limiting the amount that can be plugged in is a good thing. Having extra sockets connected is asking for trouble, IMO.

KCross wrote: »

In an outage scenario I’d be thinking all you need is the fridge, internet, one tv, a few lights and water pump (if you have your own well) and then one or two other sockets for charging phones.

Who has no mains water supply though, you? :eek: What's the wattage of a mains water pump?

The rest of the stuff you mention is pretty much same I mentioned a few posts up. Total a few hundred watts.

In winter it would be really helpful it you could run your gas / oil boiler on it too. But that would need re-wiring as opposed to just plugging a few appliances into a 4 socket extension lead, as is my plan.

unkel wrote: »

Is it for a new house you are self building?

Going for a second hand home, looking at homes that will require renovation work, mortgage application will be going in to the banks in the next few weeks. Will be looking to get things like any re-wiring, solar panels, windows/doors and insulation done at the start.

The solar situation will depend on what house we end up buying, but I've always wanted to go solar so it's one of the first things I want to get as long as I can make the funding work at the early stage.

KCross wrote: »

In an outage scenario I’d be thinking all you need is the fridge, internet, one tv, a few lights and water pump (if you have your own well) and then one or two other sockets for charging phones.

All that should “fit” into 13A.

Anything after that is pushing the boat out and not really needed.

You’d also want that backup power to last for as long as possible so limiting the amount that can be plugged in is a good thing. Having extra sockets connected is asking for trouble, IMO.

Yeah I'll have to do a lot of calculations when it comes to actually wiring up the UPS now. I would definitely put the oil/gas plant on it also though, I remember the electricity going through last years big freeze for almost an entire day and the worst part was a freezing cold house.!

This one has 21.7amp's on both the grid and UPS side. Although it's 600 euro extra compared to the Solis!

https://www.alma-solarshop.com/solax-power-inverter/982-hybrid-solax-inverter-x1-50t-hv.html

wexfordman2

unkel wrote: »

I'd bet money he is telling you porky pies

You need a DC isolator between the panels and the inverter alright. But it is dumb. It's just a manual switch.

Just.did a.search,

From.the seai guidelines

" Provide an automatic (i.e. automatically operated by disconnection of the main AC
supply to the building) shunt (or interlocked) isolation of the circuit (whether AC or
DC, and two pole) from the solar PV modules into the building, as close to the solar PV
modules as possible, and a maximum of 1.5m internally from the point of cable entry
to the building:

unkel wrote: »

Who has no mains water supply though, you? :eek: What's the wattage of a mains water pump.

The vast majority of rural houses would have their own supply.

Wattage is variable but in the order of 1kW during startup and would then settle to maybe half that when running. Depends on the pump though.

It was a PITA, literally, to have no water for toilets during one of last years storms.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Just.did a.search,

From.the seai guidelines

" Provide an automatic (i.e. automatically operated by disconnection of the main AC
supply to the building) shunt (or interlocked) isolation of the circuit (whether AC or
DC, and two pole) from the solar PV modules into the building, as close to the solar PV
modules as possible, and a maximum of 1.5m internally from the point of cable entry
to the building:

They must not have read it all. You quoted section 4.7 emergency isolation which refers to Section 5.4.5 of Building Regulation TGD B - Fire Safety (2017) states that “where Photovoltaic
(P.V.) panels are provided on buildings, provision should be made for the isolation of the
panel array externally and in accordance with ET101, 2008”.

See section 4.9.

4.9 Off-Grid and Backup Operation
Off-grid operation is defined here as a solar PV (and battery storage) system which is not
connected to the electrical distribution system (typically a remote dwelling). Backup operation
is defined here as a solar PV (and battery storage) system which is required to provide
electricity to the dwelling during periods of grid outage.
- Off-grid systems must comply with the requirements of this code of practice but do
not need to meet the requirements of Section 4.8, and can achieve the requirements
of Section 4.7 as per the backup operation requirements below
- Backup operation is permitted so long as the below conditions are met;
o The backup supply from the PV and battery energy storage system must be on
the load side of the ESB meter and cannot feed any other premises.
o The requirements of ET101:2008 must be met, particularly relating to the
requirements of ‘standby supply’ and break-before-make changeover switch,
and the requirements for neutral treatment in island mode and impacts on
protection operation.
o The can be no circumstances where the PV and battery system will feed
energy into the grid during backup operation.
Domestic Solar PV – COP – Version 1.2 (Mar 2019)
o Ensure that, by design, loss of mains (LOM) protection is not compromised.
This could be either by relocating LOM to ESBN-Customer interface or by
interlocking LOM changeover switch.
o The emergency isolation system (Section 4.7) may be interlocked to the
changeover arrangement in cases of backup operation such that it will not
impede the solar PV system operating and charging the battery system during
backup operation. During backup operation, emergency isolation must
operate (i.e. disconnect the PV module array) when the inverter AC isolator is
opened. The emergency isolation must be returned to full operation in
accordance with Section 4.7 when the mains supply is restored to the building
and the backup operation is changed back to a parallel supply arrangement.

On re-read: Will have to get the brother to double check the bold as I could be wrong.

unkel wrote: »

In winter it would be really helpful it you could run your gas / oil boiler on it too. But that would need re-wiring as opposed to just plugging a few appliances into a 4 socket extension lead, as is my plan.

Depending on your heating you’d have the burner itself and one or maybe two circulating pumps. That might be a tad too much on top of all the other stuff.

I’d forego the heating and just fire up the stove and wrap up.

We have a gas fire in the living room, so we'll all huddle in there so. With our phones, laptops, the TV with netflix, internet / wifi and a cold beer. No bother at all

barryleonard79

Hi All,
Looking for some advice on these systems. I use 3,200 kWh/yr or 8.5 kWh/d average. This is likely to rise as i expect to purchase an EV and may switch to heat pump too at some stage. I am not too hung up on ROI I would like a system that is sized to meet my needs and not export much to the gird.

Quote 1: Supply and fit of 4kw solar pv system with monocrystalline panels.5 kW Solis hybrid inverter with 1 2.2 kWh pylontec battery and 1 immersion division unit, commission and certify for seai grant. I believe these are Q Cell make. Cost €9000 minus grant €5,200

Second Company quoted me three different systems, no idea if the premium system are worth it. BER not included.

Option 1: German manufactured Solarwatt 285- 305w black mono PV glass glass panels which come with a 30yr performance and 30yr product warranty based on a maximum annual degradation of 0.345% + 5yr all risks insurance cover including loss of generation + Fronius inverter (Austrian manufactured) which comes with a 7yr warranty which can be extended + Eddie water heater deviice + option of 2.4kwh or 4.8kwh Solarwatt battery storage system

2.3kwp no battery € 6,800 Grant €5,400
3.5kwp+2.4kwh Battery €12,950 Grant €9,500
4.6kwp +4.8kwh battery €15,650 Grant €11,850

Option 2 Peimar Italian manufactured 280-300w black mono PV glass foil panels which come with a 20yr performance and 30yr product warranty or solarwatt glass foil PV panels which comes with a 12yr product and 25yr performance warranty plus 5 yr all risks insurance cover. Warranties both based on a maximum standard linear degradation of 0.7%/yr. + market standard battery equivalent Growatt inverter and 2.4kwh or 4.8kwh battery storage system which comes with a 5yr warranty with limited cycles + eddie water heater device.

2.3kwp no battery € 6,400 Grant €5,000.
3.5kwp+2.4kwh Battery €11,000 Grant €7,550
4.6kwp +4.8kwh battery €13,250 Grant €9,450

Option 3 with Asian manufactured Panels Tier 1 280-310w such as JA/Qcells or Trina (depending on best market price at the time of order) which come with a 10/12yr product warranty and 25yr performance warranty and Growatt inverter and battery storage system as per silver option above+ eddie water heater device.

2.3kwp no battery € 6,000 Grant €4,600.
3.5kwp+2.4kwh Battery €10,500 Grant €7,100
4.6kwp +4.8kwh battery €12,750 Grant €8,950

Last Company:

10 x 325 w QCells, 3.6kW inverter, 2.8 kWh Battery, BER included. €7,945 so Grant €4,845.

All are SEAI approved, first quote looks the best and he's a local. I am pushing to get the village I live signed up to be a Sustainable Energy Community and want to practice what i'll hopefully soon be preaching. Any feedback welcomed.

wexfordman2

barryleonard79 wrote: »

Hi All,
Looking for some advice on these systems. I use 3,200 kWh/yr or 8.5 kWh/d average. This is likely to rise as i expect to purchase an EV and may switch to heat pump too at some stage. I am not too hung up on ROI I would like a system that is sized to meet my needs and not export much to the gird.

Quote 1: Supply and fit of 4kw solar pv system with monocrystalline panels.5 kW Solis hybrid inverter with 1 2.2 kWh pylontec battery and 1 immersion division unit, commission and certify for seai grant. I believe these are Q Cell make. Cost €9000 minus grant €5,200

Second Company quoted me three different systems, no idea if the premium system are worth it. BER not included.

Option 1: German manufactured Solarwatt 285- 305w black mono PV glass glass panels which come with a 30yr performance and 30yr product warranty based on a maximum annual degradation of 0.345% + 5yr all risks insurance cover including loss of generation + Fronius inverter (Austrian manufactured) which comes with a 7yr warranty which can be extended + Eddie water heater deviice + option of 2.4kwh or 4.8kwh Solarwatt battery storage system

2.3kwp no battery € 6,800 Grant €5,400
3.5kwp+2.4kwh Battery €12,950 Grant €9,500
4.6kwp +4.8kwh battery €15,650 Grant €11,850

Option 2 Peimar Italian manufactured 280-300w black mono PV glass foil panels which come with a 20yr performance and 30yr product warranty or solarwatt glass foil PV panels which comes with a 12yr product and 25yr performance warranty plus 5 yr all risks insurance cover. Warranties both based on a maximum standard linear degradation of 0.7%/yr. + market standard battery equivalent Growatt inverter and 2.4kwh or 4.8kwh battery storage system which comes with a 5yr warranty with limited cycles + eddie water heater device.

2.3kwp no battery € 6,400 Grant €5,000.
3.5kwp+2.4kwh Battery €11,000 Grant €7,550
4.6kwp +4.8kwh battery €13,250 Grant €9,450

Option 3 with Asian manufactured Panels Tier 1 280-310w such as JA/Qcells or Trina (depending on best market price at the time of order) which come with a 10/12yr product warranty and 25yr performance warranty and Growatt inverter and battery storage system as per silver option above+ eddie water heater device.

2.3kwp no battery € 6,000 Grant €4,600.
3.5kwp+2.4kwh Battery €10,500 Grant €7,100
4.6kwp +4.8kwh battery €12,750 Grant €8,950

Last Company:

10 x 325 w QCells, 3.6kW inverter, 2.8 kWh Battery, BER included. €7,945 so Grant €4,845.

All are SEAI approved, first quote looks the best and he's a local. I am pushing to get the village I live signed up to be a Sustainable Energy Community and want to practice what i'll hopefully soon be preaching. Any feedback welcomed.

First and last quotes seem the best, the middle ones seem very high.

No eddi with the last.company, but I wonder is that because of the size of your system that you might not get much out of it. The first quote.does.seem to be giving you a bigger inverter also, so room.for.additional.pv.panels to get you a but more generation.

What make.are.the inverters and have you asked to see the data they present, app etc. With these systems, getting good data out is nearly as.important as the system itself.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

No eddi with the last.company, but I wonder is that because of the size of your system that you might not get much out of it. The first quote.does.seem to be giving you a bigger inverter also, so room.for.additional.pv.panels to get you a but more generation.

Regarding the inverter I've been told by a few people and seen it here in boards that the new ones including the solis ones are far more efficient and don't have to be sized in the same way. Likely others with more knowledge can comment more.

Looking at prices of the solis hybrid inverter there is only 80 in the price difference between the 3kwh and the 5kwh, I'm wonder as a rule of thumb would it be better to go with the 5kwh for future expansion, that is of course if there is a spare MPPT connection?