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Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

wexfordman2

Hi,

Thinking this might be a worthwhile information point and reference.

Good to get an idea of prices, and see if the recent grant is causing anomies etc.

If anyone cares to post up quotes they got (but excluding the company/supplier to keep mods happy).

We should show quote if system dimension, something along the lines of

4kw solar with 5kw battery and diverter 9,900 ex vat
5kw solar with 5kw battery and diverter 11,200 ex vat.

Additional info
This was for a "premium" solar panel with 30 year warranty.

Provider is seai registered, so grant is apicable, and he claims HRI/vat refund available also, however I believe thats an error.

Payment terms
20% on order
Additional 50% prior to install
Remaining 30% post commissioning

Quite for market standard panels as follows

4kw with 5kw battery 8750 ex vat
5kw with 5kw batter 9750 ex vat

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unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

With the Eddi I would need to divert 11mwh before I'd break even!!!

Not many people can do proper sums on this forum

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

Not many people can do proper sums on this forum

I thought my sums were ok there no? At least with my own relay the payback would be within a year or 2 and id get to do a neat little project that id enjoy.

I'm working on a really in depth spreadsheet at the moment to work out payback of everything from calculating power diversion to my car which I could charge at night to working day/night offsetting with a 4.8kwh battery that I could offset 4.8kwh of of daytime electricity to a night time rate during the shorter winter days. That alone would save about €96 a year.

I've a few things to tidy up on the spreadsheet before its ready and I also don't have my own raw data yet so just working with averages until I have my own place. When I move in the first thing I will do is put an energy monitor on and install the Zappi which I think logs charge data that I could use.

Evd-Burner

It would be really handy if you could get an inverter with a built in dump load that could be set to say dump to the immersion after 100w is exported the grid. Might be difficult to setup with the Zappi though.

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

I thought my sums were ok there no?

Your sums are perfect. My comment was meant as a compliment to you

Evd-Burner wrote: »

It would be really handy if you could get an inverter with a built in dump load that could be set to say dump to the immersion after 100w is exported the grid. Might be difficult to setup with the Zappi though.

I'm no expert in the setup of these systems, but it's usually handled by timing / response times of the hardware afaik. Your inverter (either DC side solar hybrid inverter or AC side battery inverter) knows the household consumption and the PV production. If the latter is higher than the former, it will feed into the battery almost immediately at a certain maximum charge rate (provided the battery isn't already charged to a certain maximum percentage). Next in line (with a higher delay time) is the Zappi. If there is still excess, it will charge your car. Next in line (with an even higher delay time) is the Eddi. If after all that, there is still excess, it will divert to immersion. Any left overs after that will go back to the grid (for free)

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

Your sums are perfect. My comment was meant as a compliment to you

I'm no expert in the setup of these systems, but it's usually handled by timing / response times of the hardware afaik. Your inverter (either DC side solar hybrid inverter or AC side battery inverter) knows the household consumption and the PV production. If the latter is higher than the former, it will feed into the battery almost immediately at a certain maximum charge rate (provided the battery isn't already charged to a certain maximum percentage). Next in line (with a higher delay time) is the Zappi. If there is still excess, it will charge your car. Next in line (with an even higher delay time) is the Eddi. If after all that, there is still excess, it will divert to immersion

Thanks.

So far I've only looked at the solis hybrid range in depth and they don't have that option. To work with the Zappi you would need 2 sensitivity settings. Say battery charging with export over 70w, then the Zappi at 100w and you'd need the inverter dump load from 130w. It would be a great feature if it was built in, I assume some form of adjustable resistor would be needed in the inverter. However I only understand so much when it comes to electrical components etc, I'm a software guy not electrical ðŸ˜‚

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

However I only understand so much when it comes to electrical components etc, I'm a software guy not electrical ðŸ˜‚

Same here

I looked at the Solis hybrid inverters. Their price was my stumbling block though. I already have a brand new Solis 4G 3.6kW dual string MPPT inverter (non-hybrid). And after some humming and hawing about upgrading to a hybrid (and either going with or without the grant), I decided on an AC side system, which I feel is far superior as it is cheaper, independent of the solar setup and you can program it to load up batteries with night rate electricity, which can save quite a bit of money.

Did you see quentingargan's post up there? He said that the Solis hybrid inverters do exactly what you want them to do.

Evd-Burner

quentingargan wrote: »

Nope - the discharge time is for exporting from batteries. Something you don't want to do.

I don't know about Zappi. It works with iBoost. The issue is the "export threshold" - the amount of power the clamp will allow to export before it kick in. On this unit, the threshold is 70 watts. The iBoost cuts in at about 100 watts, so it is fine and the battery takes priority. Other diversion units cut in at 50 watts, so the battery ends up filling the immersion. You want to be sure any diverter you use, heat or car charging, has a theshold of 100 watts or more.

I assume you mean the above? Yeah I took that info and went searching online and had a chat with the brother. It was very useful.

unkel wrote: »

Same here

I looked at the Solis hybrid inverters. Their price was my stumbling block though. I already have a brand new Solis 4G 3.6kW dual string MPPT inverter (non-hybrid). And after some humming and hawing about upgrading to a hybrid (and either going with or without the grant), I decided on an AC side system, which I feel is far superior as it is cheaper, independent of the solar setup and you can program it to load up batteries with night rate electricity, which can save quite a bit of money.

Did you see quentingargan's post up there? He said that the Solis hybrid inverters do exactly what you want them to do.

The new Solis hybrid inverter allows for night time charging on the batteries. Which saves money if you have to buy AC side equipment with the battery. What AC system do you have?

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

The new Solis hybrid inverter allows for night time charging on the batteries. Which saves money

I wasn't aware of that. Yes that will save money by using the night rate. It is also considerably better for the environmnent / emissions as lots of night time electricity production in Ireland is from renewables (wind)

Evd-Burner wrote: »

if you have to buy AC side equipment with the battery. What AC system do you have?

Yes, but the extra cost of the hybrid inverter (over a normal inverter) is more than the cost of an AC inverter outright. The hybrid inverters really are mad expensive (for now)

I bought a nearly new Sofar AC inverter. I hung it up bit it's not connected yet. I'm undecided on what battery to use - will do a proof of concept with some deep cycle lead acid batteries and then probably save up for something better

A Pylontech US3000 (3.5kWh) LifePo4 would be an ideal match for the inverter, but we are talking mad money here. Maybe they will come down in the next few years...

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that. Yes that will save money by using the night rate. It is also considerably better for the environmnent / emissions as lots of night time electricity production in Ireland is from renewables (wind)

Yes, but the extra cost of the hybrid inverter (over a normal inverter) is more than the cost of an AC inverter outright. The hybrid inverters really are mad expensive (for now)

I bought a nearly new Sofar AC inverter. I hung it up bit it's not connected yet. I'm undecided on what battery to use - will do a proof of concept with some deep cycle lead acid batteries and then probably save up for something better

A Pylontech US3000 (3.5kWh) LifePo4 would be an ideal match for the inverter, but we are talking mad money here. Maybe they will come down in the next few years...

With that AC inverter how do you get it to start charging the batteries? I only see documentation for attaching PV production. Also with the Solis inverter there is 2 AC outputs. A UPS output and a standard AC output, meaning if grid power goes you still have power on your UPS and can still use PV production.

https://solartricity.ie/solis-hybrid-off-grid-energy-storage-solar-inverter/

For me buying a new system I think it would be better to just go straight for something like that just for ease of setup and installation alone.

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

With that AC inverter how do you get it to start charging the batteries? I only see documentation for attaching PV production.

Two CT clamps. One for solar PV inverter and one for the incoming mains. So when it notices you are going to send back to the grid, it will charge the battery instead. And when it notices you are going to import from the grid, it will use the battery instead

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Also with the Solis inverter there is 2 AC outputs. A UPS output and a standard AC output, meaning if grid power goes you still have power on your UPS and can still use PV production.

Same for the Sofar. It has AC output to the grid and a separate AC output to an essential load system. Which still works when the grid is down (provided you have battery capacity of course). I'm thinking for simplicity to just connect this to an outdoors IP66 single socket

The Solis hybrid setup is easier, but the hardware is more expensive and it is a single point of failure

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

Two CT clamps. One for solar PV inverter and one for the incoming mains. So when it notices you are going to send back to the grid, it will charge the battery instead. And when it notices you are going to import from the grid, it will use the battery instead

Same for the Sofar. It has AC output to the grid and a separate AC output to an essential load system. Which still works when the grid is down (provided you have battery capacity of course). I'm thinking for simplicity to just connect this to an outdoors IP66 single socket

The Solis hybrid setup is easier, but the hardware is more expensive and it is a single point of failure

It's definitely something that I would have to look into alright as it has the potential of saving 6-12 months on payback.

However, would I be right in saying that you cannot utilize your solar production during a power outage. EG if the power outage was during the day that you could only use the power already saved up in the batteries?

unkel

Yeah good point. The anti-islanding of my standard solar inverter will prevent AC production when the grid is down. With a hybrid inverter you can still use the solar DC to keep powering the batteries!

That said, here in Dublin we never really have power outages. And when we do, it is very unlikely to happen in the middle of a lovely sunny day

Evd-Burner

Now if I could just find a way to utilize my the battery in my leaf in a safe manor

.

I'm in Dublin myself, i'm more just thinking out loud.

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Now if I could just find a way to utilize my the battery in my leaf in a safe manor .

V2H / V2G - the holy grail!

In fact in your Leaf you already can because of your CHAdeMO charging system, with commercially available solutions like this €2.5k Setec:

Linky

For CCS charging system cars like my own, it looks a bit further away

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

V2H / V2G - the holy grail!

In fact in your Leaf you already can because of your CHAdeMO charging system, with commercially available solutions like this €2.5k Setec:

Linky

For CCS charging system cars like my own, it looks a bit further away

that would easily be over 4k with customs and vat! not worth it at all!

wexfordman2

unkel wrote: »

Yeah good point. The anti-islanding of my standard solar inverter will prevent AC production when the grid is down. With a hybrid inverter you can still use the solar DC to keep powering the batteries!

That said, here in Dublin we never really have power outages. And when we do, it is very unlikely to happen in the middle of a lovely sunny day

Apparently, during an outage, solar pv production must also be stopped, so when your powers goes, you are left with what's in your battery, and that's it.

unkel

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Apparently, during an outage, solar pv production must also be stopped, so when your powers goes, you are left with what's in your battery, and that's it.

In a conventional inverter, like mine, yeah. My solar production stops.

But in a hybrid inverter the anti-islanding can just switch of the AC grid connection. There's no reason why it would have to stop providing AC to the critical load system (in the house only, not connected to the grid). Whether it still stores solar DC in the battery is irrelevant really.

I'm no expert here, but it makes no sense to me what you are saying. Have you some sort of link or backup for it? It could of course be that the regulations require it for some (illogical) reason

wexfordman2

unkel wrote: »

In a conventional inverter, like mine, yeah. My solar production stops.

But in a hybrid inverter the anti-islanding can just switch of the AC grid connection. There's no reason why it would have to stop providing AC to the critical load system (in the house only, not connected to the grid). Whether it still stores solar DC in the battery is irrelevant really.

I'm no expert here, but it makes no sense to me what you are saying. Have you some sort of link or backup for it? It could of course be that the regulations require it for some (illogical) reason

You are correct technically, there is no reason with the essential load can keep feeding off if the battery, but my understanding from my installer, is that regulations require it. It's fact, apparently the fire brigade requires it as they don't want any ac in the event of fire fighting

unkel

wexfordman2 wrote: »

my understanding from my installer, is that regulations require it. It's fact, apparently the fire brigade requires it as they don't want any ac in the event of fire fighting

I wouldn't take anything any installer says as the truth, unless they showed it to me in the regulations.

But think about it. If what you say is true, that AC isn't allowed anywhere when the grid is down, then all critical load systems would be illegal. All UPS systems would be illegal. All hospital and comms backup systems would be illegal. Using a generator to create AC would be illegal. This can hardly be the case, surely?

wexfordman2

unkel wrote: »

I wouldn't take anything any installer says as the truth, unless they showed it to me in the regulations.

But think about it. If what you say is true, that AC isn't allowed anywhere when the grid is down, then all critical load systems would be illegal. All UPS systems would be illegal. All hospital and comms backup systems would be illegal. Using a generator to create AC would be illegal. This can hardly be the case, surely?

I'm not disputing the logic of it, it's ridiculous.

But, in order for my installer to comply, he had to put in an additional isolator on the pv side that disconnects the pv from the inverter in the event of an ac power fail. It was an additional expense for him to do it, so.je wouldn't have done it unless he had to.

What makes it even more daft, is that I am allowed have an essential load, fed from the battery, so inn the event of an ad feed, there is still dc present in my house, from the battery, which is discharging ac to my essential.load.

So.disconnecting the pv generation does nothing to eliminate either ac or dc from the house.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

But think about it. If what you say is true, that AC isn't allowed anywhere when the grid is down, then all critical load systems would be illegal. All UPS systems would be illegal. All hospital and comms backup systems would be illegal. Using a generator to create AC would be illegal. This can hardly be the case, surely?

I dont think its illegal but it is against regulation to have any AC being sent to the grid during an outage, so if you connect a generator (either petrol or Solar PV or battery) to your house during a power cut you HAVE to have a way to isolate your house from the grid... it can be done with a switchover... just a big switch that has two feeds... one from the grid and one from your generator.

When the power goes you flick the switch over to the generator and then you are isolated from the grid. You wont even know the power has come back unless you flick the switch back.

With Solar PV system they just shutoff entirely.

I'd imagine hospitals etc would have some kind of automated switch for that failover but the concept is the same and is all about protecting ESB staff from getting current back through your generator or PV system etc.

Evd-Burner

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I'm not disputing the logic of it, it's ridiculous.

But, in order for my installer to comply, he had to put in an additional isolator on the pv side that disconnects the pv from the inverter in the event of an ac power fail. It was an additional expense for him to do it, so.je wouldn't have done it unless he had to.

What makes it even more daft, is that I am allowed have an essential load, fed from the battery, so inn the event of an ad feed, there is still dc present in my house, from the battery, which is discharging ac to my essential.load.

So.disconnecting the pv generation does nothing to eliminate either ac or dc from the house.

What exactly did your installer install? It would have to have some form of smarts and a connection to the A.C. side to detect mains power failure to then cut the DC to the inverter.

I remember reading the regulation and it only stated that power to the grid must be isolated in the event of a power outage on the grid in order to protect esb workers. I never read anything about cutting the DC feed to the inverter or any reference to cutting the feeds in the event of fire etc. I'll have to go and have a read again tomorrow.

wexfordman2

Evd-Burner wrote: »

What exactly did your installer install? It would have to have some form of smarts and a connection to the A.C. side to detect mains power failure to then cut the DC to the inverter.

I remember reading the regulation and it only stated that power to the grid must be isolated in the event of a power outage on the grid in order to protect esb workers. I never read anything about cutting the DC feed to the inverter or any reference to cutting the feeds in the event of fire etc. I'll have to go and have a read again tomorrow.

I will take photos tomorrow and post up, there are I believe 3 isolators

1) dc isolator from inverter to batter.
2) ac isolator to inverter
3) dc isolator between pv panels and inverter.

Item 3, kicks in automatically when ac fails. I know, I've seen it, and I agree it is daft.

Especially, as even after the pv is.isolated, I can still work away happily taking power from.my battery through my inverter essential load output

KCross

Evd-Burner wrote: »

I remember reading the regulation and it only stated that power to the grid must be isolated in the event of a power outage on the grid in order to protect esb workers. I never read anything about cutting the DC feed to the inverter or any reference to cutting the feeds in the event of fire etc. I'll have to go and have a read again tomorrow.

What is your distinction in those two things?

If the inverter is receiving current from the panels and its being fed to the house what stops that current making its way to the grid?

There needs to be a relay/switch of some kind on the mains feed before you can be allowed have free flowing current to the rest of your house.

Evd-Burner

KCross wrote: »

What is your distinction in those two things?

If the inverter is receiving current from the panels and its being fed to the house what stops that current making its way to the grid?

There needs to be a relay/switch of some kind on the mains feed before you can be allowed have free flowing current to the rest of your house.

The Hybrid Solis inverter has 2 A.C. outputs. The standard A.C grid connection and the UPS connection.

In normal operation power can flow through the inverter on the A.C. side to power the UPS equipment. When power drops on the grid side a relay opens in the inverter which isolates the grid from the UPS. Your inverter is the switch.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.solartricity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Solis-Hybrid-Inverter-Manual.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0vMjU1qrhAhWSrHEKHfmYBKQQFjACegQIBxAM&usg=AOvVaw1EaINgeZcBq3MhfNDdZkyL

KCross

Evd-Burner wrote: »

The Hybrid Solis inverter has 2 A.C. outputs. The standard A.C grid connection and the UPS connection.

In normal operation power can flow through the inverter on the A.C. side to power the UPS equipment. When power drops on the grid side a relay opens in the inverter which isolates the grid from the UPS. Your inverter is the switch.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.solartricity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Solis-Hybrid-Inverter-Manual.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0vMjU1qrhAhWSrHEKHfmYBKQQFjACegQIBxAM&usg=AOvVaw1EaINgeZcBq3MhfNDdZkyL

Understood

That 2nd ac output is not powering the house, just a dedicated circuit feeding a few essential items. Correct?

unkel

Correct.

wexfordman2

Evd-Burner wrote: »

The Hybrid Solis inverter has 2 A.C. outputs. The standard A.C grid connection and the UPS connection.

In normal operation power can flow through the inverter on the A.C. side to power the UPS equipment. When power drops on the grid side a relay opens in the inverter which isolates the grid from the UPS. Your inverter is the switch.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://static.solartricity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Solis-Hybrid-Inverter-Manual.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0vMjU1qrhAhWSrHEKHfmYBKQQFjACegQIBxAM&usg=AOvVaw1EaINgeZcBq3MhfNDdZkyL

Yep, my.inverter operates the same way. The pv isolator is external to that, additional.and separate.Again, it seems to he an seai requirement at the behest of the fire services I am told. Still makes no.sense.

Evd-Burner

KCross wrote: »

Understood

That 2nd ac output is not powering the house, just a dedicated circuit feeding a few essential items. Correct?

Precisely, depending on the inverter you get you can power up to 5kwh. I would likely put the sockets, lights and gas/oil boiler on the UPS. However I would split the sockets for the washing machine and dryer etc and put them on the grid side as they would draw far too much power from batteries.

So in the event of a power outage I couldn't use the cooker, immersion, washer, dryer or charge my car. But I can still watch t.v. and have lights etc on if I've enough battery to do so.

Just as an FYI that inverter allows you to set a battery limit where the inverter will not allow the battery drop below a certain percentage in order to keep it for the UPS.

Edit: all of the above is conditional on actually getting a house

, hopefully this year!

unkel

wexfordman2 wrote: »

3) dc isolator between pv panels and inverter.

Item 3, kicks in automatically when ac fails. I

I'd bet money he is telling you porky pies

You need a DC isolator between the panels and the inverter alright. But it is dumb. It's just a manual switch.