Why are salaries in Europe so much lower than in the US?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What if you cannot afford to pay for further education, or that you accumulate large amounts of debt trying to do so?

You go to a community college and take out student loans. Community colleges are very affordable and are ideal if you are working full time as well.

Electric Sheep wrote:

Then you will have to fund it yourself. I feel that the big difference between the US and Europe is that you are expected to take responsibility for yourself.

What if you cannot afford to pay for further education, or that you accumulate large amounts of debt trying to do so?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What if you don't have a choice of working for 'decent organisations'?

Then you will have to fund it yourself. I feel that the big difference between the US and Europe is that you are expected to take responsibility for yourself.

Electric Sheep wrote:

In most decent organizations health care is heavily subsidizedby the employer. This is the sort of benefit that you take into account when deciding whether or not to take a position.

What if you don't have a choice of working for 'decent organisations'?

Beasty wrote: »

In the US you have to fund your own healthcare and pensions

In most decent organizations health care is heavily subsidizedby the employer. This is the sort of benefit that you take into account when deciding whether or not to take a position.

danger mouse wrote: »

Europeans only work 10 months a year, Americans are lucky to get 10 days leave.

I see that quoted here a lot, but it is not true. I live in the US and have 30 days paid time off, in addition to public holidays. You negotiate these things with your employer before taking a position. Most decent jobs give more than 10 days

Mad_maxx wrote:

I'll just sit here and be patient

When you create a major economic zone, such as the EU, with a poor surplus recycling mechanism, expect trouble

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, patience! i suspect Germany's economy will eventually wobble

I'll just sit here and be patient

Mad_maxx wrote: »

No, realistic in that the world is now small and Europeans cannot be cosseted, germany has it most right in my view, best social market model

again, patience! i suspect Germany's economy will eventually wobble

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's a brave new world since China became a force, unfortunately French workers still believe they can be protected like it was the 1970,s

Im not in favour of the tooth claw american model but compared to Germany, France and Italy are paralysed with union intransigence

protectionism, interesting!

its interesting that since the reduction of union movements, productivity has sored, but wage inflation has been poor to respond, remaining largely stagnant for many, hardly related, are they?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

edgy, yet progressive!

No, realistic in that the world is now small and Europeans cannot be cosseted, germany has it most right in my view, best social market model

kunst nugget wrote: »

Do you want business to have the ability to treat their workers in a much shabbier manner and pay them lower wages and the freedom to do what they want for a bit of extra GDP that's really going to be of no benefit to the average Joe? I'm not sure that's a trade off I'd want...

It's a brave new world since China became a force, unfortunately French workers still believe they can be protected like it was the 1970,s

Im not in favour of the tooth claw american model but compared to Germany, France and Italy are paralysed with union intransigence

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Easier to demand more of workers, easier to fire

edgy, yet progressive!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what do you mean by 'labour reform'?

Easier to demand more of workers, easier to fire

Anteayer

You're actually seeing falling living standards in many ways in Europe (regionally) and in the US too.
Asset prices - notably housing are far too high and incomes relative to to that have not kept pace.

Add to that automation and the rise of Asian economies absorbing most of the blue collar stuff and changes in industries and you'll see why things are more difficult than a generation or so ago.

European responses tend to be more protectionist in countries like France and Italy where it has led to extreme inflexibility in the labour market on the basis that you hold what you have and then in the US it's been more a case of people thrown to the wolves in some areas. Neither approach is working particularly well. You've massive unemployment in rust belt parts of Europe and in the states you've a lot of underemployment and poor conditions of employment. The UK has a major issue with that too as the Tories have largely undermined social systems in the last two or more terms.

If you look at European countries that are doing well, they're like US states that are doing well. They've the right mix of industries and are pulling in either high tech or finance or a mixture of both. The areas that are sinking are depending on manufacturing or similar industries that are being replaced by robots. Germany is an odd one in the sense that's managed to make a niche at the very high end of manufacturing and certian technology but it's also way over exposed to car making.

I would worry about China as it's become the world's factory and as costs rise there and automation becomes more and more feasible their economic boom days could also come to a grinding halt for a large % of the population.

I think we're just in a time of enormous change economically and if countries and states don't recognise that they will end up floundering.

Ireland's been accidentally lucky in the sense that we largely grew into the newer world of economics and didn't have a big heavy industrial base to adapt

kunst nugget

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That's a broader set of issues, labour reform allows more freedom for businesses, wide gulf between Europe and America in this regard

Do you want business to have the ability to treat their workers in a much shabbier manner and pay them lower wages and the freedom to do what they want for a bit of extra GDP that's really going to be of no benefit to the average Joe? I'm not sure that's a trade off I'd want...

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That's a broader set of issues, labour reform allows more freedom for businesses, wide gulf between Europe and America in this regard

what do you mean by 'labour reform'?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

plenty of evidence to support, we re potentially more productive than we have ever been, maybe theres other problems occurring here, such as wage inflation suppression and rapid asset price inflation etc?

That's a broader set of issues, labour reform allows more freedom for businesses, wide gulf between Europe and America in this regard

RDM_83 again

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Not all eurozone economies are in the toilet, Germany for example, France and Italy are unreformable, you can't fire anyone or improve efficiencies

patience, if we keep going the way we re going, germany could find itself in trouble eventually. what kind of efficiencies should be implemented?

Yeah I wouldn't call avoiding recession by the skin of their teeth particularly healthy, there is definitely a sense of European smugness going on, yes poverty is probably less extreme but there has been an entire generation of people in places such as Italy,Greece, Spain, Portugal that have suffered through huge unemployment their entire working lives at this stage

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Labour efficiency

plenty of evidence to support, we re potentially more productive than we have ever been, maybe theres other problems occurring here, such as wage inflation suppression and rapid asset price inflation etc?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

patience, if we keep going the way we re going, germany could find itself in trouble eventually. what kind of efficiencies should be implemented?

Labour Market reform

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Not all eurozone economies are in the toilet, Germany for example, France and Italy are unreformable, you can't fire anyone or improve efficiencies

patience, if we keep going the way we re going, germany could find itself in trouble eventually. what kind of efficiencies should be implemented?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

But but, what about increasing gdp etc?

Not all eurozone economies are in the toilet, Germany for example, France and Italy are unreformable, you can't fire anyone or improve efficiencies

Mad_maxx wrote:

Eurozone economy is a basket case for the majority of countries, Spain, France and especially Italy, were wealthier pre 2008

But but, what about increasing gdp etc?

M.T. Cranium

The income question actually ties in to parts of the political question in the U.S. -- for decades, the Republican Party had been more or less supporting the more liberal Democrats on the open border issue not out of compassion but because it provided a steady stream of cheap labour for their voter base, small business. It is quite common to find that the employees of restaurants, motels and casinos in the west in particular are Hispanic and you get the idea that they may not always be "above board" employees (little clues like envelopes left in rooms asking for tips for cleaning staff to boost their wages). Trump represents a faction of the party that for various reasons wants to end the flow of cheap illegal immigrant labour across the border but that faction is not always opposed to large scale immigration, they just want it to be above board. Then farm workers and service workers will no doubt be earning more and costs will go up (reducing the earning power of those extra dollars in wages).

In U.S. political circles, you will often read references to the "Uniparty" which is an expression of frustration with this policy of looking the other way on illegal immigration. There is also the derogatory term "RINO" which means Republican in name only, for supporters of amnesty or continued unchecked illegal immigration and resultant cheap labour. But two different theories then evolved about what would be better. One is amnesty and allowing these low paid workers, obviously needed to make the economy work, above board (and no doubt higher paid with better benefits). The other theory is Trump's idea of blocking the border and stopping the flow. Support for the two ideas seems about equal, almost nobody would stand up in a public political forum and say they were status quo supporters but the public perception is that in reality, the business-dominated Congress is just going through the motions and secretly is status quo and will remain that way until replaced.

Eurozone economy is a basket case for the majority of countries, Spain, France and especially Italy, were wealthier pre 2008