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Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

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FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Or just moderate Unionists.

The border was drawn to ensure that Unionists were a majority in Northern Ireland. Bringing either Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan or the 26 counties into the UK would cause a loss of Unionist hegemony.

I think it's the former. I really don't see how the DUP can continue much longer as a political force. It's so hostile to anyone outside it's rabid base. Sinn Féin have done a much better job in preparing for the future.

How can you brand them Unionists of any degree and say this though?

To be honest, I'm not even sure they'd want all of Ulster. They're probably so used to the status quo that they wouldn't dream of changing it.

Like my wife, they are Irish Protestants living in a border county.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So not technically 'Unionists' then?

Or just moderate Unionists.

The border was drawn to ensure that Unionists were a majority in Northern Ireland. Bringing either Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan or the 26 counties into the UK would cause a loss of Unionist hegemony.

I think it's the former. I really don't see how the DUP can continue much longer as a political force. It's so hostile to anyone outside it's rabid base. Sinn Féin have done a much better job in preparing for the future.

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not even sure they'd want all of Ulster. They're probably so used to the status quo that they wouldn't dream of changing it. For any more extreme, the former seems to be very much more likely than the latter.

So not technically 'Unionists' then?

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Out of interest, would Unionists in Donegal want all of Ireland under British jurisdiction or just all of Ulster?

To be honest, I'm not even sure they'd want all of Ulster. They're probably so used to the status quo that they wouldn't dream of changing it. For any more extreme, the former seems to be very much more likely than the latter.

Junkyard Tom

Out of interest, would Unionists in Donegal want all of Ireland under British jurisdiction or just all of Ulster?

ancapailldorcha

jm08 wrote: »

I've wondered about this and the anglo-Irish gentry - for example, would someone like Henry Mountcharles (more likely his decendents) be able to sit in the House of Lords?

I honestly have no idea. I think herediary peerages have been abolished so he'd have to be nominated.

RobMc59 wrote: »

The reason I asked was because i have been looking into my own family originally from Donegal(protestant)and until recently i was unaware this continues with a strong presence still today.
I frequently have discussions with my sons who tend to listen to their Drogheda mother rather than me with regards to Irish matters!
I've no interest in sectarianism and would like to see a UI when the time is right.

Ah right. Been a long times since I lived there full time but the Orange Order still has its parade in Rossnowlagh if that's any sort of metric. That said, any sort of unionism where I'm from was far from vocal in terms of lobbying or agitation.

Frank Castle

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your post above. Specifically the example of futility bit.

You quoted my post. If you weren't having a go at me as you say, it might have helped if you'd been a bit more specific and perhaps spaced out the post better.

Honestly as a Protestant from Donegal myself, I think you are going out of your way to get offended here.
It's fairly obvious what he is trying to say tbh, and now having moved to Mayo I fully agree with what he is saying. (tbh growing up on the border of Donegal (and living in the North itself) the attitudes are the same as in the North in regards to religion. Its not like that at all down here).

jm08 wrote: »

Are you/your family still entitled to a British passport*? As far as I know, anyone born in ROI before 1949 are entitled to a British passport. Can children of people born before then keep their British citizenship?

*or possibly being born in a hospital in NI.

Tbh any protestant from Donegal will have family in the North who they will use to get a passport.
But yes, if your parents are entitled to a passport (via being born in NI or before 1949) then you are too.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

The reason I asked was because i have been looking into my own family originally from Donegal(protestant)and until recently i was unaware this continues with a strong presence still today.
I frequently have discussions with my sons who tend to listen to their Drogheda mother rather than me with regards to Irish matters!
I've no interest in sectarianism and would like to see a UI when the time is right.

jm08

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I am by my virtue of having been here a while. I've no idea if there any sort of CTA-provisions for British passports for Irish citizens. The CTA isn't a bilateral treaty so I doubt it.

I've wondered about this and the anglo-Irish gentry - for example, would someone like Henry Mountcharles (more likely his decendents) be able to sit in the House of Lords?

ancapailldorcha

jm08 wrote: »

Are you/your family still entitled to a British passport*? As far as I know, anyone born in ROI before 1949 are entitled to a British passport. Can children of people born before then keep their British citizenship?

*or possibly being born in a hospital in NI.

I am by my virtue of having been here a while. I've no idea if there any sort of CTA-provisions for British passports for Irish citizens. The CTA isn't a bilateral treaty so I doubt it.

jm08

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

Are you/your family still entitled to a British passport*? As far as I know, anyone born in ROI before 1949 are entitled to a British passport. Can children of people born before then keep their British citizenship?

*or possibly being born in a hospital in NI.

Junkyard Tom

Ye're getting your wires crossed lads. As I read it Matt's first sentence was referring to Ancapailldorcha as the personification of an Irish person from a Unionist/Protestant background, and the rest was speaking to the general arguments against a UI that being Protestant/Unionist was not compatible with a broader sense of belonging to the Irish nation.

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your post above. Specifically the example of futility bit.

You quoted my post. If you weren't having a go at me as you say, it might have helped if you'd been a bit more specific and perhaps spaced out the post better.

I suggest you take this issue up with the MODS. I'm done answering your false claims.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can you elaborate under what context I describe you or Unionist/Protestants as a futility, pointless, useless?

Your post above. Specifically the example of futility bit.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Never said you did. Since when does referring generally to 'any talk' directly point to one person, specifically when there are no quotes?
I think you misread my post and responded in haste. In fact you obviously did.

You quoted my post. If you weren't having a go at me as you say, it might have helped if you'd been a bit more specific and perhaps spaced out the post better.

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You called me an example of futility.

This is very clearly saying you being a Unionist/Protestant, living in the Republic, shows that any talk suggesting people like you might be run out of a United Ireland is nonsense, a futile discussion as you prove it's not the case.

You are an example of the futility in any silly talk regarding anyone without an Aran sweater and a bodhrán getting ran out of the country because ML marched with a banner in the Paddy's day parade.

Can you elaborate under what context I describe you or Unionist/Protestants as a futility, pointless, useless?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But he then went on to build a silly caricature and then shoot it down without letting the fact that I never said any of that get in his way.

Again, this was to show how any talk of anyone being ran out after a united Ireland because of differences was nonsense.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

When did I say Protestants would be run out? Quote me please.

I was asked a question. I answered it.

Never said you did. Since when does referring generally to 'any talk' directly point to one person, specifically when there are no quotes?
I think you misread my post and responded in haste. In fact you obviously did.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seriously, what insult are you imagining here?
I pointed out the idea any unionist or protestant would be ran out after a united Ireland was a nonsense.
I grew up with Protestants, neither me nor any of them give two f**s about religion.
You are an example that unionists, protestants can live and function in the republic.

When did I say Protestants would be run out? Quote me please.

I was asked a question. I answered it.

ancapailldorcha

BonnieSituation wrote: »

In fairness to Matt, he was saying that the talk of running out of anyone that doesn't conform to the devalera ideal of Irish people is futile and just scaremongering.

But he then went on to build a silly caricature and then shoot it down without letting the fact that I never said any of that get in his way.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You called me an example of futility.

In fairness to Matt, he was saying that the talk of running out of anyone that doesn't conform to the devalera ideal of Irish people is futile and just scaremongering.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seriously, what insult are you imagining here?

You called me an example of futility.

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Another poster asked what my background is. I answered and you decide to post insults? How does that advance the UI cause, exactly?

Seriously, what insult are you imagining here?
I pointed out the idea any unionist or protestant would be ran out after a united Ireland was a nonsense.
I grew up with Protestants, neither me nor any of them give two f**s about religion.
You are an example that unionists, protestants can live and function in the republic.

ancapailldorcha

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You are an example of the futility in any silly talk regarding anyone without an Aran sweater and a bodhrán getting ran out of the country because ML marched with a banner in the Paddy's day parade.
Does it need be pointed out that many seeking a united Ireland might also be Protestant? I know one personally. Not discussed it with others I know. Where I grew up your postal code decided how you were looked upon, not your religion. Sadly we still have that.

I get the power of the scaremongering but I would suggest the republic has had far less incidents of institutionalised religious related intolerance than the six counties not in the republic in modern times. So why anyone might think a united Ireland would be any different than the republic is currently as regards the rights and treatment of members of any religion makes no sense to me, other than for scaremongering purposes.

Another poster asked what my background is. I answered and you decide to post insults? How does that advance the UI cause, exactly?

BonnieSituation

I was watching Spotlight last night.

Guests were:

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, MLA and former Belfast Mayor.

Liam Halligan, economist and English first generation Irishman selling his unique brand of "I'm of Irish descent so my opinion outweighs yours" nonsense. Repeatedly and antagonistically referred to "this part of the United Kingdom".

Naomi Long, Alliance leader. Came across relatively well but her "moderate unionist" mask slipped a couple of times.

Diarmuid Ferriter, Historian and Irish Times contributor

Edwin Poots, MLA and former minister for health in Stormont administration who believes that the world is 6000 years old.

---

Obviously being essentially a local version of QT the focus was on Ireland north and south.

Poots smirked throughout with the sort of patronising guff that really blows me away. Constantly blamed SF for a lack of Stormont. Ridiculous Carry on. And I'm being deadly serious when I say this, it was the sort of performance that if he was wheeled out during a
Reunification campaign would sway any small n nationalists who may be thinking with their pockets.

The likes of Poots and Wilson are a gift for Nationalism.

Much better moderation than you would ever get with QT but there is clearly a unionist bias in the audience.

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

You are an example of the futility in any silly talk regarding anyone without an Aran sweater and a bodhrán getting ran out of the country because ML marched with a banner in the Paddy's day parade.
Does it need be pointed out that many seeking a united Ireland might also be Protestant? I know one personally. Not discussed it with others I know. Where I grew up your postal code decided how you were looked upon, not your religion. Sadly we still have that.

I get the power of the scaremongering but I would suggest the republic has had far less incidents of institutionalised religious related intolerance than the six counties not in the republic in modern times. So why anyone might think a united Ireland would be any different than the republic is currently as regards the rights and treatment of members of any religion makes no sense to me, other than for scaremongering purposes.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Does this mean you maybe from one of the counties not part of NI but part of Ulster?I ask as I thought you had expressed concern about your status in Britain which wouldn't be the case if you where from NI?

I'm from Donegal. I come from a staunchly Unionist, Protestant family.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Speaking as an Ulster Unionist myself, I strongly consider myself Irish first and foremost. I wouldn't remotely consider myself British. Most Unionists I've known, including those most fervent feel the same way.

Just my own experience of course.

Does this mean you maybe from one of the counties not part of NI but part of Ulster?I ask as I thought you had expressed concern about your status in Britain which wouldn't be the case if you where from NI?

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not so according to some.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it

It may have been started by Labour but has only filtered down over the last few years.Any service which is free is going to struggle at times but scraping the NHS in favour of an insurance funded system would`nt be popular here I believe.
I`m not that familiar with the Irish health system although older in laws seem to be well looked after.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The NHS is creaking at the seams but is still a brilliant service-years of tory austerity haven't helped either.The current gripes about the NHS have only really surfaced since they got into power.

Not so according to some.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

There has been much talk about the perks of being part of the UK (such as NHS). This article throws a new light on how good things are in NI. At least in the ROI, you won't have to wait 3 weeks to get an appointment with a GP and 4 to 5 year wait for outpatient appointment. Big problems with the schools as well, with parents providing toilet rolls and other supplies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/19/dup-bung-schools-hospitals-northern-ireland

The NHS is creaking at the seams but is still a brilliant service-years of tory austerity haven't helped either.The current gripes about the NHS have only really surfaced since they got into power.

James Brown

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Exactly the opposite point is being made Matt

My mistake. I was recalling people being sent to NI for surgery by Healy-Rae.

BonnieSituation

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So we've gone from us not needing the cost or headache to them being better off without us? We have many ongoing generational problems, as does NI, but family is family.

Exactly the opposite point is being made Matt