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Child Item

The dog.

McMurphy

You've heard that expression possibly thousands of times over the year's now, but to me "the dog" as an expression doesn't do them justice.

Think about it, we as civilised human beings have domesticated many animals, cats, birds, horses, donkeys and horses to name but a few, but what other animal is there on this earth that even comes close to challenging "the dog" for its loyalty, affection, intelligence, and goddam loveability. (< Is that a word?)

In our house, there's two full time working parents, and 4 kids (and Shane a 4 year old poodle/retriever cross)

Shane will signal to the rest of the house when he hears my van (or herself in the car) approaching the house - lane (it's 90m long by the way, yep long but if it was any shorter it wouldn't reach the house)

He'll loyally wait on either of us when we take him on a walk to the local shop, won't budge an inch from the place we will "command" him to sit and stay (yeah we loop his lead to a bollard whilst in there, but he won't budge an inch without our say so)

He will alert us if someone's at the door, and he'll bark with excitement when we are playing around the house with the kids (eager to join in)

He knows when I'm down (after receiving news of a death of a loved one recently) he just sauntered into the room where I sat, sat at my feet, placed a paw on my ankle and whimpered slightly as if to say he shared my pain.

He will also "guard" each of my kids enthusiastically while they are on their bikes/flickers running alongside them barking as if to say "move out of the way"

I'm adamant that he knows every word I say to him.

We have a cat too (he showed up a few years ago and never left) but he's a prick in comparison.

Let's hear your amusing tales of your pets.

Dog/cat/chameleon or an.other.

Do you have a pet, and if so what are its unique qualities or funny tales you want to share with us?

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SAMTALK

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yeah, I don't dislike him, nor try to treat him any less favourably than the dog, but he doesn't give nearly as much back as the dog.

As already said, we acquired him (he just showed up) and never left, perhaps his complete take it all but return very little attitude has something to do with his past life before being adopted by us.

Have to agree with you Johnny Dogs.

Same in our house. Cat shows up for treats and food and then it's like he sticks the two fingers up at us as he rambles off
He plops himself in the dogs bed and looks at them as if to say ' I dare you to move me '

MonkieSocks

SmartinMartin wrote: »

Your cousin's dog can drive?
Brings a whole new meaning to 'dog licence'.

One of mine could :P

Her is Colleen ( RIP 2013 age 17 1/2) driving Young Georgie( Back Seat Left )
to school, accompanied by Sally ( RIP 2010 aged 15 )

But they decided instead of going to school, they would down to Wicklow and pass through the Sally Gap.

West Highland Terrorists

EmmetSpiceland

Cats should barely be classed as pets. Coming and going as they please and giving fickle loyalty to whomever is feeding it that day.

Also, I find that houses with cats tend to smell a lot worse than those with dogs.

[Deleted User]

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Cats should barely be classed as pets. Coming and going as they please and giving fickle loyalty to whomever is feeding it that day.

Some. The one in my gaff curls up to sleep next to us, rolls over for belly rubs, starts chases with the dog, great fun.

Also, I find that houses with cats tend to smell a lot worse than those with dogs.

Yup. When people claim cats are cleaner than dogs I can honestly say I've often been surprised that there's a dog in a house, not so with a cat. Opening the front door is enough.

SAMTALK

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Cats should barely be classed as pets. Coming and going as they please and giving fickle loyalty to whomever is feeding it that day.

Also, I find that houses with cats tend to smell a lot worse than those with dogs.

Well you've just opened a can of worms now

Deebles McBeebles

SAMTALK wrote: »

Well you've just opened a can of worms now

That is true though. Unless the cat goes to the toilet outside, you can smell the p*ss through walls.

Boom_Bap

Scented cat litter FTW.

I've recently become a dog owner (also have 2 cats, they are pr*cks, but lovely ones), my experience so far is great.
I have someone to chill out with me, someone to keep me company on walks, someone to welcome me home, someone to welcome me in the morning, someone to eat the missus's cooking

It's been great so far.

Carry

Aaah, dogs. I can hardly read something about dogs without my heart melting.

Next week is the first anniversary since my beloved doggie died. She was a gem, a rescue who first was scared shítless then couldn't be detached from my side and eventually started to love every human. Apart from plumbers and other males she didn't know and considered as intruders who disrupted her comfortable life. She was a brilliant watchdog. Well, most of the time.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106587876

Three years before she died a kitten invaded our blessed relationship. My dog hated cats, went berserk whenever she saw one.
So I tried to find a home for that half starved and hurt creature. Didn't find one so I kept the charmer.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96564019

And a charmer he was. He attached himself to my dog, more than to me, probably he prefered four-legged creatures. And love has mystery ways - the dog took the cat on as part of the family. The two of them were eventually inseparable and the cat even came along to our daily walks.

The cat by now still seems to thinks he is a dog. He acquired the same quirks (and good clean behaviour) as my doggie, but strangely he refuses to sleep on places where my dog used to sleep. And he reacts to the same commands I used for my dog - not that he would always follow them. But that's cats for you.

PinkLady2016

Carry wrote: »

Aaah, dogs. I can hardly read something about dogs without my heart melting.

Next week is the first anniversary since my beloved doggie died. She was a gem, a rescue who first was scared shítless then couldn't be detached from my side and eventually started to love every human. Apart from plumbers and other males she didn't know and considered as intruders who disrupted her comfortable life. She was a brilliant watchdog. Well, most of the time.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106587876

Three years before she died a kitten invaded our blessed relationship. My dog hated cats, went berserk whenever she saw one.
So I tried to find a home for that half starved and hurt creature. Didn't find one so I kept the charmer.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96564019

And a charmer he was. He attached himself to my dog, more than to me, probably he prefered four-legged creatures. And love has mystery ways - the dog took the cat on as part of the family. The two of them were eventually inseparable and the cat even came along to our daily walks.

The cat by now still seems to thinks he is a dog. He acquired the same quirks (and good clean behaviour) as my doggie, but strangely he refuses to sleep on places where my dog used to sleep. And he reacts to the same commands I used for my dog - not that he would always follow them. But that's cats for you.

Sorry to hear about your dog. That photo reminds me of my cat and dog they were great buddies. Nothing fills that void when they are gone. Its a friendship that cant be explained.

kneemos

Should have stricter laws on what dogs can be owned.
Sheep dogs for example aren't suitable for a semi d. Nor are Huskies. Pugs and all of those snub faced dogs should be outlawed completely.

Caging them up in the garden should also be illegal.

Junkyard Tom

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Anyone ever known s dog to troll? That's a question that needs to be asked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qM74g5h-rs

[Deleted User]

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Let's hear your amusing tales of your pets. Dog/cat/chameleon or an.other.

Having imported a wolf from a Canadian/Alaskan mixed breed we have no end of amusing stories. Mostly around how dogs and people react upon first meeting him. Don't seem to get any vermin - mice, cats, Mormons and the like - on my land ever either. Which is nice.

Not being able to leave him home alone means we generally have to take him to work. Which generally means I never get any **** from anyone at work with him hiding under the table either.

Funniest story so far for most people when I tell it is my coming down for water one night and finding a terrified burglar sitting in the corner who had been there quite some time with my four legged terror standing over him menacingly. Not often a burglar is almost glad to find the owner of the house showing up. It's a funnier story when I tell it in person though. Doesn't really communicate well in text.

Funniest story for me personally though - although a sad one too kinda - was when he got into his first serious fight. A group of large dogs went for him one day. Obviously sending he was "different". The grace and natural ability with which he dispatched them was almost like ballet to watch. I suppose we have bred the ability to fight out of most of our house breeds of dog. But what was funny was that he was depressed for nearly a week after it. I think - unbeknownst to the burglar above - he is actually a to the bone pacifist. And he was depressed he was actually forced to hurt another even in self defence.

Still full of what looks like youth and energy as if he has not aged a day in the last few years - but I do find myself watching the years go by. They are not the most long-lived of creatures. And as someone on the mid life crisis thread put it this week - he has likely seen more sunsets than he has ahead by now. It is hard to even pre-process the emotions that will be involved when the day finally arrives where I outlive him. We are almost never more than 5 paces from each other. It will be like losing a child and a limb all at the same time.

LimeFruitGum

We had a gentle Jack Russell/Terrier cross at home for many years. She eventually went blind, but nobody had the heart to make the call to put her to sleep. Vet said she wasn’t in pain (didn’t have any ailments otherwise), but keep her comfortable. We were all in bits when she eventually died. My mam even marked the dog’s anniversary on her calendars.

A few years later, my brother figured it’s time to have a dog in the family again. My dad was so against it: “fecking stupid idea, we’re too old, blah blah”
The brother comes back with this gorgeous Yorkie pup, and everyone fell in love with her straight away. Now, Dad won’t go anywhere without her. She’ll go down to his room in the morning and jump up for a little head pet. She’s fairly low maintenance in terms of food and activity, so she’s a great fit for him. He is in hospital at the moment for a hip replacement and he’s gagging to see her on Skype.

Wibbs

Tax, he's almost certainly not a wolf. He might be a Wolfdog hybrid, but going on your descriptions he'd be a low content one. Wolves and high content wolf dog hybrids are nowhere near a house pet. Reliable toilet training is highly unlikely, wholesale and regular destruction of your stuff a near given and strongly tend towards extreme shyness and avoidance of people and strong stimuli. As a guard animal they would be next to useless. Their default position is to get the feck outa Dodge at the first sign of trouble. Unless cornered and then it's severely injured or dead intruder(over twice the bite strength and bigger teeth than something like a Rottweiler). They're major escape artists too, with almost zero recall off lead and can outpace most dogs, never mind a human. They're also extremely high energy for the most part. Think Husky on cocaine. Sitting placidly for any length of time is not their thing. Extremely strong prey drive and resource guarding too. I would not have one next nor near children for example. They dig like a welsh miner on speed with it. As a pup they're OK, if more high energy, but when adolescence hits all bets are off. One aspect of domestication is the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood. In essence dogs never grow up and stay in a quasi puppy like stage, wolves and high contents do grow up and don't stay like pups.

On the plus side T if he is a Wolfdog of some nature he'll be anything but short lived for a large dog. Hybrid vigour tends to play a part. Even long established Wolfdog breeds like the Czech and Saarloos where the wolf content is low enough tend to live longer than the equivalent sized German Shepherds. 14-16 is not unusual. Depends on the breeding lines though as too many have been inbred for a market that wants them and will pay big money for one(1000-2000 a pup from a good lineage), so you get the all too common hip issues and the like from the usual German Shepherd lines.

Of the official Wolfdog breeds Czech and Saarloos if someone had to have one, go for the latter. They tend towards shyness but were bred to be companion animals, even guide dogs at one stage, whereas the Czech was bred as a military/police dog to patrol the Czech borders, so are extremely high energy and more likely to be aggressive and are much more wilful. The current dog trainer trend for there being no such thing as "dominance" will get one helluva shock with one of them.

This is not to piss on your parade Tax and he really sounds like one helluva dog

I'm just saying this in case somebody reading that thinks a "wolf" or "Wolfdog" is a good bet as a household pet as so many seem to and actually ends up getting one that is mid or high content and finds out to their cost they're not. And the dog will get abandoned and/or destroyed, or worse somebody could get hurt*.

My experience? Nearly 17 years with an F3 wolf dog hybrid and a few years with a Czech Wolfdog. The F3 was "easier" TBH, though he once took a heavy oak door off its hinges in under five minutes just to troll me. I've also been up close and personal with human habituated wolves(European and Iberian. The latter are total if hyper dotes).

*joke is an actual 100% wolf, while near impossible to live with would likely be "safer" on this score. The cross with the dog makes them less afraid of people, more reactive and more aggressive.

[Deleted User]

I made my post on the thread after some thought and reservation actually knowing you would be waiting like a coiled spring fro me to post. And as I said before when you got emotional over this with "kid gloves" comments - this is an animal that went through a series of verifications and passed through a series of experts and processes to even get here - including a lovely German couple of retired animal experts who run a nature reserve up near Sligo who almost fell over themselves in excitement to meet him - and the only person I know of who has _any_ doubts about it's species and lineage is the one person - you - who has absolutely zero access of any type to it and absolutely no actual data to work with.

So I am sure you can imagine how relevant, accurate, or informed I find your opinion on the matter to be honest - even in isolation let alone in relation to that of informed experts with actual access to the animal in question. However this is a generally positive and happy thread talking about the animals we have and our happy and fun experiences and stories with them and their place in our lives. I am not sure it needs you coming in on a downer of doubt just looking for an argument.

EDIT: The Tundra is known to live 16 years. Many wolf types including the other half of his mix, the Canadian half however tend towards 7 years though longer in captivity. So I do not try to entertain any overly optimistic notions on his life span. If he is still sitting by my side in 5 years I would consider myself a very lucky human being.

Junkyard Tom

You couldn't trust a dog around a child though. At the bottom of it all dogs are predators and like to eat meat so a child must look like a tasty big sausage to them.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

And as I said before when you got emotional over this with "kid gloves" comments - this is an animal that went through a series of verifications and passed through a series of experts and processes to even get here - including a lovely German couple of retired animal experts who run a nature reserve up near Sligo who almost fell over themselves in excitement to meet him - and the only person I know of who has _any_ doubts about it's species and lineage is the one person - you - who has absolutely zero access of any type to it and absolutely no actual data to work with.

The "data" I have are your descriptions, even in that last post(TBH I had forgotten about your previous) and unless you have the biggest outlier in the species it is not a wolf and if "animal experts" claim it is I have questions about their so called expertise.

BTW if it came from Canada, Canadian law is quite clear on the matter and is more restrictive than US law. It is illegal to own a wolf or F1/2/3 hybrid unless granted a zoo or research licence(or fur farm depressingly), both of which expressly forbid export except to another zoo or research facility. If he came from the UK the laws are even tougher there and since the 1970's it is illegal to own a wolf down to F3 level without a dangerous animals licence(which forbids export). Wolfdog breeds were a grey area until quite recently.

I am not sure it needs you coming in on a downer of doubt just looking for an argument.

I'm not looking for an argument T. I am warning others who might read your stories of domestic wolf bliss, and who might understandably if foolishly think it would be great to have a bit of the "wild" in their lives and end up with an actual wolf(extremely unlikely, if not impossible in Ireland) or a high content hybrid, or yep even one of the official Wolfdog breeds and get one helluva shock. Worldwide there are too damned many wolf dogs and wolf hybrids in shelters or destroyed because of misconceptions like this.

If someone is reading this and wants a dog that looks pretty wolf like, but is still a dog, have a look out for a Northern Inuit breed dog, but only from a good breeder, likely in the UK(I dunno if there are any here, though they appeared on Game of Thrones when they were shooting that up North so maybe?).

Wibbs

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You couldn't trust a dog around a child though. At the bottom of it all dogs are predators and like to eat meat so a child must look like a tasty big sausage to them.

Ah it depends on the dog and the breed J. I'd always supervise a dog around small children though.

Ave Sodalis

Deleted User wrote:

I made my post on the thread after some thought and reservation actually knowing you would be waiting like a coiled spring fro me to post. And as I said before when you got emotional over this with "kid gloves" comments - this is an animal that went through a series of verifications and passed through a series of experts and processes to even get here - including a lovely German couple of retired animal experts who run a nature reserve up near Sligo who almost fell over themselves in excitement to meet him - and the only person I know of who has _any_ doubts about it's species and lineage is the one person - you - who has absolutely zero access of any type to it and absolutely no actual data to work with.

To be completely fair to Wibbs though, I've had plenty of experiences (or known other animal professionals) where the owner is convinced that their dog is part wolf, or is wolf. The vast majority of them, there is absolutely no wolf in their dog and it's only a husky or a malamute, or maybe even a black shepherd. I have never seen your dog so I would never make a call either way, but I can definitely see why someone would doubt the authenticity of someone's claim that they have a wolf/wolf dog.

Junkyard Tom wrote:

You couldn't trust a dog around a child though. At the bottom of it all dogs are predators and like to eat meat so a child must look like a tasty big sausage to them.

It's not so much a dog thinks of children as a big sausage (how many children are ate, as opposed to bit?). I wouldn't trust a dog around a child, and I wouldn't trust a child around a dog. They don't communicate very well with each other. A child is more likely to climb on, slap or pull at a dog and a dog has no way of understanding that a child doesn't mean to harm it.

pxdf9i5cmoavkz

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Why do some people have to feel the need to criticise cats so as to put their point across about dogs? No need to compare.

This is the one thing that perplexes me about the Irish. Why are cats treated as second-class citizens?

Yes, of course, not all the Irish do :rolleyes:

Little Less Conversation

Had dogs growing up as a small kid so I don't remember much from my childhood. Had a dog that the family had in my 20s had her for about 13 years and I was mad about that dog. I've had a pulled muscle from walking her, I tripped over while taking her for a run one day. Another time, I was walking over a river using a bridge, dog lead in one hand and my phone in the other and she pulled me and my phone went flying into the river. All I could do was cry and she licked my face to make me feel better. Her cuddles were the best.

I moved away within Ireland a few years ago. I fell out with my family not long after moving away. I have a toxic family. The dog went to heaven last year. My family wouldn't even let me see the dying dog last year. It ****ing kills me that they used the dog to get to me and wouldn't even let me see the dog or say goodbye to her... It's coming up to a year to her death and all I want to do see the dog again.

[Deleted User]

I hope it's not a wolf. I can't think of a more miserable life for a wild animal than sitting under someones desk at work or being a companion dog. I can't even understand why anyone would deliberately seek out a wild animal to give it that kind of life.

Anyway, dogs are great and wolves are amazing and the re-introduction of wolves into a couple of US State parks has basically turned around a deterioration in the ecosystems and strengthened the entire food chain and diversified the plant life, particularly riverbank plant life.

My childhood dogs all have a special place in my heart and as soon as more regular hours are worked in my house there will be a waggy friend to keep the cats entitlement in check. A family isn't complete without a dog, imo.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

The "data" I have are your descriptions

Exactly my point - thanks. You have nothing but that. Descriptions. Ones that due to the necessity of prose and brevity are not even complete.

What you do not have is access to the specimen - qualifications - training - or all that much knowledge of the subject at all.

So forgive me if I defer to the people who have not some but _all_ of those things. As I said though this is one of the few positive threads active on After Hours here at the moment and I have no interest in derailing it with your need for an argument. But -

Wibbs wrote: »

I am warning others who might read your stories of domestic wolf bliss, and who might understandably if foolishly think it would be great to have a bit of the "wild" in their lives

- on that subject you will get little to no argument from me at all. I have talked about him a lot over my years on this forum and I have been very clear indeed the amount of work and effort, even risk, and more that goes into it. So too was the writer who inspired me to get him in the first place.

Anyone thinking they want to get any animal at all - let alone one outside the usual standard species we have bred for domestication - should realize it takes over your life more than even kids do at times.

And yet this is a thread about positivity around our experience with our pets so I did not feel I had to repeat all that stuff here and bring the thread down. People can talk on a thread like this about their experiences with the kids and dogs without having to go into the risks of having dogs around toddlers and kids for example. Though we have one poster who jumped on that point above you.

There is a time and a place for that nanny posting. I did not think it was here. Clearly you did I guess. I do not think the warnings required though. I doubt anyone is really dumb enough to read my posts and jump to the conclusions you fear they might and then go through all the extreme effort and procedures I did to obtain one. Yours fears are not really well founded I suspect.

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

To be completely fair to Wibbs though, I've had plenty of experiences (or known other animal professionals) where the owner is convinced that their dog is part wolf, or is wolf.

I have known a number of those myself. Especially owners of huskies for some reaon. However of all the people I know who have thought like that I have yet to meet one who A) Specifically imported a wolf

Has papers to that effect and C) has the opinion of not one but many experts on the subject rather than the opinion of an amateur who read a few pages about them in "Tell me Why" and considers themselves knowledgeable.

Actually to keep this on the note of positivity I was enjoying from the thread until now one of the better experiences related to owning him has been the people I have met because of it. People who actually train and work with rare animals are - so far in my anecdotal experience - literally the loveliest and happiest and most content people I have ever met. The joy they derive from their work I have not seen paralleled in others I have met myself.

The retired German Wildlife Biologist living in Sligo is a great example of this. He retired to Ireland with his wife up near Sligo and people hearing his old career started bringing him wild animals. Mostly birds. He has a family of foxes now too that are so beautiful I was almost going to ask could I move in with him. I fell in love with them instantly. They are so indescribably beautiful.

It is a crying shame his sanctuary does not get more public footfall than it does. He needs the money! The first time I went there I went using a rake of vouchers we got off avanmore milk. But on the way out I paid the balance that the vouchers gave us because it turns out he gets no rebate at all from them.

But he loves this work he has now fallen into. You will not meet a happier person I suspect if you went there.

But he also put me in touch with another German woman who studied for her Dr. title specifically in the Canine world. She is the lead expert around wolves kept in captivity in the general Hessen area especially around Frankfurt areas. And the lead expert being consulted on the reappearance of wolves over recent years in the German Spessart. Meeting her myself was a wonderful experience. She literally exudes joy and love for everything she does. A calendar month does not go by now where if I fail to contact her - she does not reach out to me for updates and new pictures and to hear how we and specifically he is. I got to go and visit her and some of the captive wolves she works with too. Was insanely jealous. She goes into the area where they are kept and they all just climb all over her over joyed to see her. You really get the feeling the deep love goes both ways.

All wonderful people who's expertise on the subject I am not questioning as readily as a rank amateur to the subject to be honest. And I treasure meeting every one of them.

Candie wrote: »

I hope it's not a wolf. I can't think of a more miserable life for a wild animal than sitting under someones desk at work or being a companion dog.

A minor part of his life I assure you.

Candie wrote: »

Anyway, dogs are great and wolves are amazing and the re-introduction of wolves into a couple of US State parks has basically

Yeah their migration back to the Spessart in Germany is cause for celebration too. Some have been spotted but last time I heard it was not 100% sure they were back or had they just wandered in and back out again. Of course opinion is divided over whether it is a good thing or not. You can imagine people like farmers are not pleased even though wolves there cause less trouble than - say - wild boar who have been known to destroy whole crops of grain or corn literally over night.

A lot of ignorance is an issue with these things alas

The German guy up in Sligo talks about all the problems wild life in Ireland suffers from for example. And pretty much all of it stems from human ignorance. IT is really quite sad.

His family of foxes he would ideally like to release back into the wild. He is of the opinion he can not however as they have become too used to humans now. And so they will approach humans who will - our of fear and ignorance - often kill or injure them all over again.

How anyone can look at the foxes I met there in sligo and want to cause them _any_ pain at all is beyond me. Some of the most beautiful creatures I have met in my entire life ever. And likely ever will.

EmmetSpiceland

Give it up, chief, you’ve been found out. Best thing you could do now is not mention it again.

A wolf, haha! On your bike now.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly my point - thanks. You have nothing but that. Descriptions. Ones that due to the necessity of prose and brevity are not even complete.

"necessity of prose and brevity" indeed... Your descriptions don't need to be any more than they are. Just on your single post above which has you; importing a full blooded wolf from areas unknown with "papers", when both the Americas and Europe have extremely and rightfully heavy restrictions on ownership and sale and especially export and none, zero, nada, allow export for personal domestic ownership. And if you imported him, he would have been well past the imprinting and socialisation stage(it's earlier and sorter in duration than dogs and unlike dogs are almost pathologically averse to new stimuli and people(or dogs)). A canid living in your house, housebroken and living with a family, going with you to work(maybe in a car). The same "wolf" hangs around while you work every day and curls up under your desk, and keeps a burglar pinned in your house until you show up, and you seem to think is a "pacifist"? No photos either. That would say even more. That's all I need to know to say straight out that your claim is an utter nonsense. And a dangerous bloody nonsense at that if someone reading sought to copy you and ended up with an actual high content(their chances of getting an actual 100% wolf are slim to anorexic). I make zero apologies for this position.

What you do not have is access to the specimen - qualifications - training - or all that much knowledge of the subject at all.

I know enough to know that a Tundra Wolf isn't Canadian, but Eurasian. And "Alaskan" is pretty vague too. "Canadian/Alaskan mixed breed" is another type of description more likely used by "breeders" looking to egg on their living product. For a fee of course.

So too was the writer who inspired me to get him in the first place.

Who if I may ask was that?

Blah, blah, deflection clumsily appealing to heart strings

All wonderful people who's expertise on the subject I am not questioning as readily as a rank amateur to the subject to be honest.

I've lived with an actual F3 hybrid and a Czech Wolfdog, between them over two decades and have had some time with habituated captive wolves and have known a couple of on the ground researchers in the field.

But if any of you folks are reading out there, pardon and forget all that interwebs cock waving, I do know this; any "expert" in the subject that condones and supports the keeping of an actual wolf is vanishingly rare, for some reason pacifying the uninformed owner, or quite simply not an expert. Anyone reading I'd say google bona fide researchers in the field of wolves and if you find an email addy, drop them a line and ask them, even point them to this thread and if they respond - and they well might, as "pet" wolves, so called or otherwise are a major bugbear in the field - I'll bet all I own they'll agree more with me.

A lot of ignorance is an issue with these things alas

In this at least we do agree.

DrPhilG

I've been to a "wolfdog sanctuary" in Western Canada where they house an assortment of dogs with various wolf content and I totally agree that the thought of a 100% wolf traipsing around someone's office like a lap dog is ludicrous.

Roger Hassenforder

Probably a prairie dog

bodhrandude

Had a few adorable border collies in our family over the years, but my two favourites are Alfie my sister's pointer, she does that trick where she puts a piece of kibble at the end of his nose and he sits there obediently and she says 'Take' up goes his nose and the food lifts off in a circle straight into his mouth every time. Then there's Dinny my house mate's dog, if someone knocks the door the dog has learned to lean on the door handle and open the door, there's been many a shock to the postman or one of my friends when greeted by the dog who is a lovable rogue.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

your descriptions don't need to be any more than they are.

They do not if all they are required to do is fuel your personal confirmation bias and imagination I suppose. But as I said this is a positive thread that does not need your need for an argument. Given the opinion of an amateur with no access to the data compared to the opinion of multiple experts who do - I am going to pick the latter in ever situation. You are welcome to the rest of it. Even the word "papers" which got you all bothered above was enough to send you off despite not knowing what papers - containing or saying what - at all. You hear a single word and then complete the rest with your imagination.

The simple fact is you have little knowledge of the subject and even less knowledge about the particular individual. Which leaves us at an impasse because due to legal issues I can not give you over the internet the data you would even need - so neither of us can "prove" our case in this situation - though I notice you have cited nothing at all backing up your own assertions at any point. All I can keep saying is that I am more interested in people with actual knowledge who have access to the actual data on any subject - that people with no knowledge who do not.

But as I keep saying -

Wibbs wrote: »

And a dangerous bloody nonsense at that if someone reading sought to copy you

- there is a probability of that actually occurring between zero and none I suspect. You are propping yourself up as defender of a fantasy. The effort alone - especially given the legal issues you rightly mention - is not something I expect anyone to emulate. The number of people in our country who actually seek to obtain non-standard breeds of animal very small. And anyone of the few people actually in that mindset - are not likely to be influenced by me either way.

Having any animal at all ever is a commitment - with lows and highs and responsibilities comparable to even having children sometimes if not more so. I think most people all ready know that without Nanny Wibbs virtues protecting them

Wibbs wrote: »

I know enough to know that a Tundra Wolf isn't Canadian

But not enough to stop and actually read my post and find anywhere where I claimed even once it was???? How odd. As I keep saying on the thread - you are hearing what you want to hear to come to the conclusions you want to come to - all to fill in data you simply do not and never have had.

Wibbs wrote: »

I do know this; any "expert" in the subject that condones and supports the keeping of an actual wolf is vanishingly rare

Indeed but it will of course depend on what you ask them and how. If you ask them if they support the notion in the general sense they are pretty much all going to be in complete agreement with you. Especially in a world where people obtain animals out of ignorance and then simply get bored with them and neglect them eventually - when they turn out to be more work and effort than they suspected at first.

If you ask them however if they can imagine it being done right, how one might go about doing it right, and in what situation do they suspect they would be entirely ok with it I am sure they would comprehensively answer that question too.

And I would align with them in both cases. I do not generally think it is something anyone should be doing without full knowledge and preparation of the commitments involved.

[Deleted User]

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You couldn't trust a dog around a child though.

And yet I do trust them and many many people do. It is a judgement call we all make. Not just with dogs. We make that judgement call when we leave our children alone with _anyone_ really. Remember for example that most sexual abuse of children occurs by people known to them.

But be it an uncle or a dog we all make our own judgement calls on the safety of our children based on what we know about the character and temperament of the people or animals we involve them with. And yes sometimes a dog or an uncle - or or or - let us down in this regard.

But the majority of us most of the time place our trust well and it is rewarded. And our children benefit from the exposure.