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Making claim to unregistered land

CuriousFox

Hi,
Near where I live there is a piece of land which hasn't been used/farmed for as long as I know. Nobody has showed any interest in the land and it has sat overgrown for decades.
Curiosity got to me, so I did a little research and it turns out nobody owns it. I contacted the PRAI and they said the same and that it is unregistered land.

My question is, can I or someone make a claim to the land now or would I have to start occupying/using the land and wait the 12 years to claim adverse possession.

TIA.

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nuac

Mod
Talk to a local experienced solicitor.
Some land was never registered in the Land Registry for various reasons
]

bornio

It could be registered in the Registry of Deeds

Peregrinus

Somebody owns it. Just because it's unregistered doesn't mean its unowned.

Claw Hammer

Peregrinus wrote: »

Somebody owns it. Just because it's unregistered doesn't mean its unowned.

It may be owned in the sense that somebody may be in a position to make out title to it. It may also be the case that it is owned by many people. The last occupier or his successors may have died Interstate with the lands descending to various parties.

BrokenArrows

CuriousFox wrote: »

Hi,
Near where I live there is a piece of land which hasn't been used/farmed for as long as I know. Nobody has showed any interest in the land and it has sat overgrown for decades.
Curiosity got to me, so I did a little research and it turns out nobody owns it. I contacted the PRAI and they said the same and that it is unregistered land.

My question is, can I or someone make a claim to the land now or would I have to start occupying/using the land and wait the 12 years to claim adverse possession.

TIA.

Yes the law is that you can occupy and use the land for 12 years and then make a claim for ownership. You will have to show a clear use and improvement of the land.

But if the owner wanders along after 11 years and 51 weeks and tells you to **** off then you have no choice but to leave.

4ensic15

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Yes the law is that you can occupy and use the land for 12 years and then make a claim for ownership. You will have to show a clear use and improvement of the land.

But if the owner wanders along after 11 years and 51 weeks and tells you to **** off then you have no choice but to leave.

It is not that simple. If the owner does any act consistent with ownership such as paying insurance, the 12 years goes. Also, a squatter can only squat against the interest of the person in possession. If the property is leasehold the squatting ends on the expiry of the lease and then has to start again against the superior interest. If you squat on land subject to a 50-year lease you only oust the tenant and after 51 years the landlord can toss you out.

Mr. Incognito

You can register Possessory Title.

If no-one challenges it when the statute expires you can convert that to full possession.

You need to speak to a solicitor about doing this.

Dig all

Hi there , check in the valuation office to see who paid rates on the land back in early years, this will clarify who was renting from the landlord at the time, the valuation office will give you a map with lot numbers on different property's, or check Griffiths valuation, it's digitised now so you can do all online , type in your county and townland and this will bring up around the area where the unregistered land is and it will give you the lot number, the tenent pages comes up as a link on the page so click on each one until your lot number comes up and it will give you a name. Search that name in the registry of deeds to see if they sold it ! .

GerardKeating

This is purely hypotechical,

But say for example I had "found" some land, which the owners are long lost/emirgrated etc, and started squatting on the land, hoping to gain adverse possession in 12 years.

What would happen if someone else tried the same thing with the same plot of land, would them being on the land restart or stall the clock on my claim?

brian_t

GerardKeating wrote: »

This is purely hypotechical,

But say for example I had "found" some land, which the owners are long lost/emirgrated etc, and started squatting on the land, hoping to gain adverse possession in 12 years.

What would happen if someone else tried the same thing with the same plot of land, would them being on the land restart or stall the clock on my claim?

Surely to claim adverse possession you need to show that you have exclusive use of the plot for 12 years.

What steps can you take (if any) to stop other people tresspassing on "your" plot.

Can two people come together to claim adverse possession on a plot.

Peregrinus

What brian said. To make a claim for possessory title you need to occupy the land to the exclusion of others. So this will probably require you to fence it (if it's not already fenced) so as to keep out others. If it's already fenced, that make life a bit easier; make sure there's a functional gate and keep it locked. (And of course actually occupy and use the land yourself; it's no use just padlocking the gate and then ignoring the place for 12 years.)

TeaBagMania

out of curiosity what do you want to do with this land (build a house, farm, etc) and is it adjacent to land you already own?

madonna123

Adverse Possession is very difficult to prove and the threshold for a successful claim is quite high.

Unregistered land is about 20% of land throughout Ireland. This simply means it is recorded in the registry of Deeds and has unregistered title.

If it hasn't been conveyed since the late 1980's it may be still under the old system.

You would be required to be in active possession of the lands for 12 years if the title is privately held, 30 years if state owned lands or 60 years if the lands are foreshore.

This possession will need to be exclusive to you and exclude all others including the legal owner. Courts refer to this as the Animus Possidendi.

If the owner at any time up until their title is extinguished takes back possession IE, asks you to leave, attempt to enter the land in anyway or even writes to you stating their title your clock stops on possession.

Claw Hammer

madonna123 wrote: »

Adverse Possession is very difficult to prove and the threshold for a successful claim is quite high.

Unregistered land is about 20% of land throughout Ireland. This simply means it is recorded in the registry of Deeds and has unregistered title.

If it hasn't been conveyed since the late 1980's it may be still under the old system.

You would be required to be in active possession of the lands for 12 years if the title is privately held, 30 years if state owned lands or 60 years if the lands are foreshore.

This possession will need to be exclusive to you and exclude all others including the legal owner. Courts refer to this as the Animus Possidendi.

If the owner at any time up until their title is extinguished takes back possession IE, asks you to leave, attempt to enter the land in anyway or even writes to you stating their title your clock stops on possession.

Universal compulsory registration only came into effect about 10 years ago. many properties conveyed up into 2007 may well be under the old system depending on the county in which they are situate.

Carawaystick

To develop GerardK's point,
if someone litorally found some new land (like Bull Island) What's the rough procedure? occupy and register possession?

Peregrinus

Carawaystick wrote: »

To develop GerardK's point,
if someone litorally found some new land (like Bull Island) What's the rough procedure? occupy and register possession?

Occupy exclusively, which is going to be difficult since for the duration of the adverse possession period you have no basis for excluding others from the land. Plus, in the case of newly-emergent land like Bull Island, your adverse possession is as against the State, so the period is not 12 years but 30.

Curly Judge

The best way to find out if someone else owns, or claims to own, a piece of land is to fence it off for your own exclusive use.
If they exist, they'll soon emerge out of the woodwork.

Claw Hammer

Curly Judge wrote: »

The best way to find out if someone else owns, or claims to own, a piece of land is to fence it off for your own exclusive use.
If they exist, they'll soon emerge out of the woodwork.

The best way to get sued for trespass and face an injunction is to fence it off a piece of land for your own exclusive use.the legal bill might be more than the price of the land.

Curly Judge

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The best way to get sued for trespass and face an injunction is to fence it off a piece of land for your own exclusive use.the legal bill might be more than the price of the land.

They can't sue for trespass or obtain an injunction without first approaching you and request you remove said fence. Well they can in theory.... but it's highly unlikely they'll get very far.

TeaBagMania

Curly Judge wrote: »

They can't sue for trespass or obtain an injunction without first approaching you and request you remove said fence. Well they can in theory.... but it's highly unlikely they'll get very far.

exactly
thats why i asked earlier what the intended purpose was and proximity.
if the land is adjacent and only needed for agriculture than by all means fence it in and use it. "if" the owner happens to show up its a sorry, my bad, lets get this fence sorted, but if twelve years passes without inquiry i guess you can take ownership.
its all a gamble

4ensic15

Curly Judge wrote: »

They can't sue for trespass or obtain an injunction without first approaching you and request you remove said fence. Well they can in theory.... but it's highly unlikely they'll get very far.

Thgey may not get an injunction without asking you to move but they can certainly sue for trespass.

raymick

Some of my land was taken by my neighbour and he built some of his house on it
He promised to sort it but he abandoned the property it was then been processed by the bank to repossess it, when I found out I informed the bank, the council and land registry they all said the same thing it wasn’t their problem to get legal representation. so I got my solicitor to inform the auctioneer and the boundary problem was put in the contract for sale. The new owner agreed that some of his house was indeed built on my land and we entered into talks, now he has decided that he wants to go for adverse possession, can he after only one year. Can I go for my land back

Peregrinus

4ensic15 wrote: »

Thgey may not get an injunction without asking you to move but they can certainly sue for trespass.

They can. But if you leave when challenged they're not going to recover much in the way of damages.

Basically, occupying the land and waiting to see if someone turns up is a low-risk strategy. If someone does turn up, and it becomes apparent that they have a good claim, you can leave. And you've still had the free use of land for however long it was before they turned up.

El Tarangu

raymick wrote: »

Some of my land was taken by my neighbour and he built some of his house on it

In a case like this (and I am not recommending the poster do this, just to discuss the point of law), what are the rights of the landowner - can they knock down the offending structure as far as the boundary line? Would they need to apply for planning permission to do so; how would it work?

Donald Trump

raymick wrote: »

Some of my land was taken by my neighbour and he built some of his house on it
He promised to sort it but he abandoned the property it was then been processed by the bank to repossess it, when I found out I informed the bank, the council and land registry they all said the same thing it wasn’t their problem to get legal representation. so I got my solicitor to inform the auctioneer and the boundary problem was put in the contract for sale. The new owner agreed that some of his house was indeed built on my land and we entered into talks, now he has decided that he wants to go for adverse possession, can he after only one year. Can I go for my land back

A layman's interpretation would be that he can't - he only has been there for one year. The previous fella wouldn't have claimed the adverse possession and I'd imagine the years can't be transferred.

Seems like an arsehole move on his part. If someone tried to pull that on me I'd be tempted to be obstructionist on my end i.e. don't give an inch (literally). If they approached me and offered me a fair price to sort it out and transfer ownership, I probably would have been reasonable.
But given that they instead are trying to "steal" it from you for free, I'd be more likely to be book the wrecking ball for some date in the future and to tell them it's either that or they can pay you what would be an otherwise unreasonable sum of money (i.e. unreasonable for the land/site)

They knew about the issue when they bought. Even if they didn't that is their own fault for not doing their homework.

I'd say to make sure to sort it out now so that he can't later claim it. Because if he figures out he can't do it now, he might be just waiting in the long grass for the time to expire and then pull it out of the bag at that stage.

You could "lease" it to him..........

Corruptedmorals

raymick wrote: »

Some of my land was taken by my neighbour and he built some of his house on it
He promised to sort it but he abandoned the property it was then been processed by the bank to repossess it, when I found out I informed the bank, the council and land registry they all said the same thing it wasn’t their problem to get legal representation. so I got my solicitor to inform the auctioneer and the boundary problem was put in the contract for sale. The new owner agreed that some of his house was indeed built on my land and we entered into talks, now he has decided that he wants to go for adverse possession, can he after only one year. Can I go for my land back

We bought a house with a boundary concern. The sellers had to apply for adverse possession as we could not, it restarts the 12 year period once ownership changes.

Peregrinus

El Tarangu wrote: »

In a case like this (and I am not recommending the poster do this, just to discuss the point of law), what are the rights of the landowner - can they knock down the offending structure as far as the boundary line? Would they need to apply for planning permission to do so; how would it work?

I'd get a court order before I started knocking down part of somebody's house. Just saying.

The key issue here is that A, living in the house that he built, is occupying part of B's land. He's trespassing. The fact that he has put up a structure on B's land is an aggravation of the trespass. So, B wants him out; he brings an action for ejectment, and seeking damages for trespass. The damages will need to cover the cost of removing the structure that A erected, if that's what B wants to do. I don't think B can just demolish the bit of the house that projects into his land, and leave the rest of the house with a gaping hole; the work shouldn't damage the rest of the house unnecessarily and should be done in a workmanlike way, so should include constructing e.g. a new end wall for the house, on the boundary line. The damages sought should cover the cost of doing the job properly. B would be very unwise to start work before he gets his order for ejectment and his award of damages.

Realistically, the work can't be done without some discussion and co-operation between A and B and, realistically, they will consider other solutions than partial demolition of the house - it might suit A better to make an offer to buy the bit of the land that he has occupied, and it might suit B better to accept that offer. Or, depending on the exact facts, they may agree total demolition of the house, or dividing the house into two self-contained premises along the boundary line, or they become joint owners of the house, or whatever.

Any work that is done, or any significant change in the use of the house, will need planning permission (unless it happens to fall into the provisions of the planning regulations dealing with exempt developmen - e.g. maybe if all that has to happen is the removal of a conservatory that projects into B's land, that would probably be an exempt development).

[Deleted User]

raymick wrote: »

Some of my land was taken by my neighbour and he built some of his house on it
He promised to sort it but he abandoned the property it was then been processed by the bank to repossess it, when I found out I informed the bank, the council and land registry they all said the same thing it wasn’t their problem to get legal representation. so I got my solicitor to inform the auctioneer and the boundary problem was put in the contract for sale. The new owner agreed that some of his house was indeed built on my land and we entered into talks, now he has decided that he wants to go for adverse possession, can he after only one year. Can I go for my land back

What does your solicitor advise?

Claw Hammer

Donald Trump wrote: »

A layman's interpretation would be that he can't - he only has been there for one year. The previous fella wouldn't have claimed the adverse possession and I'd imagine the years can't be transferred.

.........

What good is a laymans interpretation?

Donald Trump

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What good is a laymans interpretation?

It's a public message board.
Perhaps you are on here as a qualified Senior Counsel giving advice for free, but others can also post opinions even if they aren't qualified barristers

And am I wrong to say that he can't claim for adverse possession after only owning it for one year? What is your free legal expert option on the matter?