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Would you use a consent app?

[Deleted User]

So there was a story earlier today about someone wanting to develop a 'consent app' at UCD.. mass email.. outrage.. yadda yadda yadda. Anyway would you use one? You make some digital signature or something indicating you are up for it, and then get down to business.

I can see a hell of a lot of problems with it anyway, who owns the data? The privacy implications! What if you're drunk? Consent can be withdrawn at any time. What if you agree and the hot blonde who started chatting to you back at the bar calls in Bubba?

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Purple Mountain

Is the app for two some only?
What about gang bangs?
'Hang on a sec, Tom. Peter and Mikey have signed mine but you haven't. Oh flip, and I forgot to sign your app, Mikey- pass it over here and I'll do that while Tom reads the small print about my safe word in mine.'

pleas advice

*Tom has left the group chat*

MsGiggles

Not even sure how a consent app would help !!!

BeerWolf

I expect designated government run motels where participating parties have to physically sign consent forms before doing the deed in the coming years...

MsGiggles

BeerWolf wrote: »

I expect designated government run motels where participating parties have to physically sign consent forms before doing the deed in the coming years...

Can we get a LOL please !

tritium

God this story was some pile of sanctimonious ****e and agenda pushing

-idea that consent needs to be formally and explicitly obtained is verbalized
- someone looks to create an (admittedly flawed) application to ensure this happens
-groups who originally verbalized this lose their **** and attack the developer as the spawn of the patriarchy

Erm, they’re running with your original premise my dear. Maybe you could actually be constructive with your idea.

One tool bag actually had the ironic cheek to describe this as “toxic masculinity” just had to shoehorn that in I guess- I guess obtaining consent isn’t relevant for women so.

Makes me wonder if some groups might not have a different agenda than they actually let on.

KikiLaRue

I voted yes because if a man I was seeing and wanted to sleep with asked me to I probably would, but I wouldn't ever propose it from my side.

[Deleted User]

*Rolls eyes*

tritium

MsGiggles wrote: »

Not even sure how a consent app would help !!!

Put simply it wouldn’t. Even if you had contracts signed in blood you’d still have cases where alcohol or drugs or differences in understood intention or some other random variable meant what the two parties believe happened differs significantly.

That’s the nature of the messy stuff that is human interactions. Just going with #Ibelieveher (or indeed #Ibeleievhim) won’t change that, all it does is pretend there are no grey areas.

That said I do think the real reason certain groups lost their **** here is that reasonable doubt becomes a much lower bar if someone can be shown to have freely signed something like this.thats not by the way stating it as right or wrong, good or bad, it’s just a fact. Unfortunately even with something like this you’ll still have some rapists walking free, some false accusers and a big pile of people in the middle where the truth is much less certain.

KikiLaRue

I don't know why establishing consent has to be so legalistic and decidedly unsexy.

"Wanna f*ck?"
"Does that feel good?"
"I really want you - are you ready for this?"

There's loads of perfectly good ways within the confines of a normal conversation leading up to sex to be totally sure you've got consent.

Obviously if you're tearing the clothes off each other, it's not necessary - but if you sense hesitance or reluctance it's absolutely no harm to make sure instead of ploughing ahead.

I'm 30 now, and my recent experience with men is that they are perfectly well able to cope with a 'No' if that's what happens when it comes down to it. But when I was 19 or 20, that wasn't the case. Lads would keep trying to convince or persuade you in a manner I'd imagine they would classify as 'persistent' but could actually be quite intimidating.

They really did make you feel like they were hard done by if you changed your mind or didn't want to go all the way.

Maybe I've got better taste in men now, but I think it's just a youth thing to a large degree.

batgoat

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

In saying that, I do think some needlessly got their knickers in a twist about the whole thing, sanctimoniously twisting the motive behind it:

As pointed out, consent can be withdrawn. It's also inapplicable if a woman is so drunk that she is incapable of consent. Also, how do you even guarantee that it's her who gave consent? It's a medical student proposing the application which is frankly worrying as they should have some grasp of the concept of consent.

MsGiggles

tritium wrote: »

Put simply it wouldn’t. Even if you had contracts signed in blood you’d still have cases where alcohol or drugs or differences in understood intention or some other random variable meant what the two parties believe happened differs significantly.

That’s the nature of the messy stuff that is human interactions. Just going with #Ibelieveher (or indeed #Ibeleievhim) won’t change that, all it does is pretend there are no grey areas.

That said I do think the real reason certain groups lost their **** here is that reasonable doubt becomes a much lower bar if someone can be shown to have freely signed something like this.thats not by the way stating it as right or wrong, good or bad, it’s just a fact. Unfortunately even with something like this you’ll still have some rapists walking free, some false accusers and a big pile of people in the middle where the truth is much less certain.

Good points, well made

Spleerbun

batgoat wrote: »

As pointed out, consent can be withdrawn. It's also inapplicable if a woman is so drunk that she is incapable of consent.

What if the guy is even more drunk, what happens then? Can he consent?

Giveaway

Consent app! Bad idea for married men. Wives could get access to the logs.
Or even subpoened by divorce lawyers.
New twitter outrage, consent apps lead to (divorce) rape

Lollipops23

Men are 200 times more likely to be raped themselves than be accused of rape.

Plopsu

KikiLaRue wrote: »

"Wanna f*ck?"
"Does that feel good?"
"I really want you - are you ready for this?"

I answered yes to all of these but it was because I felt under duress. Which also applies to the app.

seamus

tritium wrote: »

God this story was some pile of sanctimonious ****e and agenda pushing

-idea that consent needs to be formally and explicitly obtained is verbalized
- someone looks to create an (admittedly flawed) application to ensure this happens
-groups who originally verbalized this lose their **** and attack the developer as the spawn of the patriarchy

Erm, they’re running with your original premise my dear. Maybe you could actually be constructive with your idea.

One tool bag actually had the ironic cheek to describe this as “toxic masculinity” just had to shoehorn that in I guess- I guess obtaining consent isn’t relevant for women so.

Makes me wonder if some groups might not have a different agenda than they actually let on.

To be fair, it would never have become known except that the guy who sent the email included that he wanted to create the app to protect men from being sued post-coitus.

That was his entire reason for the app.

It was never about ensuring that consent is properly obtained or recorded, but about the boogeywoman waiting in the bushes to have sex with men and then cry rape the next day.

tritium

seamus wrote: »

To be fair, it would never have become known except that the guy who sent the email included that he wanted to create the app to protect men from being sued post-coitus.

That was his entire reason for the app.

It was never about ensuring that consent is properly obtained or recorded, but about the boogeywoman waiting in the bushes to have sex with men and then cry rape the next day.

Except you’re treating the two as distinct when they’re not. If the reasoning is to prevent men being sued when they have consent then they have consent- actively sought consent, the exact thing that we’ve been hearing is needed. Now when someone actually goes off and creates something to make that happen they’re the devil incarnate and a tool of the patriarchy while the goalposts shift.

Tbh I’m not really sure how, at it’s heart an app like this could ever be for anything but the stated reason. You can dress it up all you like but someone refuses to click yes then they’re not consenting. No ambiguity there. A rapist won’t care about that so the app doesn’t protect them. The clicker already knows if they consent so the apps not for them either. The only person who gets tangible benefit is the one ensuring they have consent. If it makes you feel better you can say they want to know and record it for the good of others rather than self interest but ultimately for a non-rapist self interest in a pretty big part of it

No one disputes that consent can be withdrawn or consent may be limited in scope or capability. However it generally good practice to answer part a of the exam question (I.e. get consent initially) before trying to solve the trickier related parts b and c. That’s to say, maybe it’s detactors should try seeing it as part of the solution and work on the bugs rather than take the opportunity for outrage

lainey_d_123

Richard Hillman wrote: »

So your getting hot and heated with somebody you just met. You're in the bedroom, tearing off each others clothes off, you're both giving it the aul mouth action on the nether regions, you're ready for to send the submarine into deep sea exploration and all of a sudden....."****, we need to give formal consent."

"Oh no, I deleted the app, I needed the space.
I'll download it now. What's your WiFi code?"
"it's under the router downstairs"
:Puts on pants, runs downstairs:
"OK I'm connected, I'll download it now"
:clicks download:
"ah f**k, I have to delete an app for the space. Er...I need that. Need that one. Gwan I'll go for the Pornhub app"
:uninstall:
:presses download for consent app:
:ah f**k another one. OK, MyTaxi can go."
:uninstall:
:presses download for consent app:
:downloads:
:installs:
"OK I'm up and running"
:enters email address:
:enters password:
"FFS, Password needs a special character"
"OK, how can we connect?"
"I don't know, I forgot my password, I'm just waiting for an email to be sent to reset it"
:awkward silence:
"I have lost my hard-on"
"Wait there, I'll watch some porn and I'll be ready again.... Oh s**t"
"Sure we can do this again sometime. I need to be up early tomorrow. I'll just order a taxi... F**k"

Brilliant!

Sums up the ridiculousness of the idea alright.

buried

tritium wrote: »

Tbh I’m not really sure how, at it’s heart an app like this could ever be for anything but the stated reason. You can dress it up all you like but someone refuses to click yes then they’re not consenting. No ambiguity there. A rapist won’t care about that so the app doesn’t protect them. The clicker already knows if they consent so the apps not for them either. The only person who gets tangible benefit is the one ensuring they have consent.

What about people who don't have this app then? What if they don't want to use or can't afford the technology? Do they need to get a hand written form in order to consent so it can be swiped on the app on the other persons phone? Does a solicitor need be present instead of the absent app? Or are they out the game until they co-operate and get this app? How is this sort of wollix going to work in fairness

Plopsu

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Men are 200 times more likely to be raped themselves than be accused of rape.

If that's a reference to the Channel 4 article, their bias is obvious and their methodology is, eh, not great.

sbsquarepants

Richard Hillman wrote: »

"ah f**k, I have to delete an app for the space. Er...I need that. Need that one. Gwan I'll go for the Pornhub app"

There's a pornhub app?

marcbrophy

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There's a pornhub app?

Dunno about that, but there's a PH Viewer app alright

Triceratops Ballet

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I don't know why establishing consent has to be so legalistic and decidedly unsexy.

"Wanna f*ck?"
"Does that feel good?"
"I really want you - are you ready for this?"

There's loads of perfectly good ways within the confines of a normal conversation leading up to sex to be totally sure you've got consent.

Obviously if you're tearing the clothes off each other, it's not necessary - but if you sense hesitance or reluctance it's absolutely no harm to make sure instead of ploughing ahead.

I'm 30 now, and my recent experience with men is that they are perfectly well able to cope with a 'No' if that's what happens when it comes down to it. But when I was 19 or 20, that wasn't the case. Lads would keep trying to convince or persuade you in a manner I'd imagine they would classify as 'persistent' but could actually be quite intimidating.

They really did make you feel like they were hard done by if you changed your mind or didn't want to go all the way.

Maybe I've got better taste in men now, but I think it's just a youth thing to a large degree.

This is largely my experience too, one of the many reasons I wouldn't like to be that young again.

There's not a chance I'd use a consent app, in fact there's probably no more sure way to get me up out of the bed and back into my clothes than asking me to.

Would it even be legally enforceable? under our laws you generally can't sign away your rights, in the same way a pre-nup isn't legally binding in Irish law, such an app in order to be admissible in a court case would have to be legislated for which is unlikely.

Grayson

To be fair this is a cross between an idiot who doesn't understand what consent is and an idiot who probably thought he could make a quick fortune by making an app.

A cursory glance at the app shows all it's failings and if they'd known the first thing about consent they would would have seen it.

And if the guy who wrote it does have any political leanings it's probably going to be more right wing since it feeds into all the dumb fears those anti feminists have that there's a hoard of women out there just waiting to accuse them of rape.

DEFTLEFTHAND

God, the culture is gone so creepy and weird.

Let the cool kids back in charge please.

Infini

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

God, the culture is gone so creepy and weird.

Let the cool kids back in charge please.

Blame Cancer Media for helping create an entire generation of muppets. Seriously this carry on is getting out of hand now.

tritium

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

This is largely my experience too, one of the many reasons I wouldn't like to be that young again.

There's not a chance I'd use a consent app, in fact there's probably no more sure way to get me up out of the bed and back into my clothes than asking me to.

Would it even be legally enforceable? under our laws you generally can't sign away your rights, in the same way a pre-nup isn't legally binding in Irish law, such an app in order to be admissible in a court case would have to be legislated for which is unlikely.

While I think an app like this is an unfortunate development it is somewhat inevitable. I don’t see how it could be taken as signing away a right though- at best it could be taken as further evidence that consent was in fact in place at that point. Wouldn’t preclude withdrawing consent or indeed a challenge to the circumstances under which it was obtained. While in practice it’s too clunky a concept to ever catch on I can’t see how it’s much of a move from just plain old up front asking if someone consents - which we’re told is the way to go

tritium

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair this is a cross between an idiot who doesn't understand what consent is and an idiot who probably thought he could make a quick fortune by making an app.

A cursory glance at the app shows all it's failings and if they'd known the first thing about consent they would would have seen it.

And if the guy who wrote it does have any political leanings it's probably going to be more right wing since it feeds into all the dumb fears those anti feminists have that there's a hoard of women out there just waiting to accuse them of rape.

Given all that’s been seen are a few screen grabs how exactly are the failings obvious. And are those obvious failings insurmountable or could an update address them? Whether it’s practical is another matter (I think the app is somewhat impractical) but is there any reason other functionality couldn’t be brought in? Is there any flaw that doesn’t already exist with the current approaches?

Tbh it’s a bit rich to claim they don’t understand consent when what they’ve actually created is an app that takes the first step to asking someone to confirm consent - may be a bit creepy but frankly they’ve shown that consent should be established, what exactly do you think they should have done for step 1? Or to put it another way - is it good to establish consent? Is it inherently wrong to have a record of that?

Feisar

To answer the question would I use such an app:

If I got a divorce and if Penelope Cruz, insisted I click OK then yes, yes I'd use it.