Home heating automation

Regarding the quote, mine is for 12 rads. None have TRVs currently so all bodies will need replacing. They currently have a mix of Myson and Pegler dumb valves and my guess is most if not all need the extra work deezell mentions above.
I get the hot water kit as well that comes with a second relay and a wireless stat. When I costed everything on Amazon.de the parts all came to almost €1200. There is BER report to be done so that's another 100 or so.

I agree that 1600 is still too much as they are effectively making €1400 off the install. Electric Ireland make a good bit and so does their subcontractor. I would like to ask a couple of other companies for quotes. My usual heating/plumbing guy is not SEAI registered otherwise it was a no brainer as he is very good and very reasonable. If anyone has recommendations please PM me. Dublin area.

loyatemu wrote: »

1680 after the grants :eek:

I was looking at Honeywell for my house, figured I need 10 valves and the controller, which is about €900 from Amazon, plus I'd need TRV bodies as my rads don't currently have them (about €15 each).

Even with install (say it took a full day for a plumber to do all the TRVs) it's hard to see how it could come to that much after the €700 grant, never mind the supposed EI discount. If you already have TRVs on your rads you'd be better off installing it yourself and forgetting about the grant.

I've said this before. Grants are a bonus for for installers, not a discount for customers. Get a cash quote for the TRV valve body fit from a grant approved installer. and have your TRVs on hand. If he does all ten in a day, fair play to him, as it will be a quick or slow job depending on the existing rotary valves, if they are compression or BPST unions to the rads, etc. It could be as simple as dropping in the new fitting using the nuts of the old one, or having to remove the 1/2" spigot from the radiator, (hoping its not seized in) and also having to remove the nut and olive off the upstand pipe if nut threads don't match.
Once this is done, that's ten zones, (with your already self-programmed TRVs), enough to satisfy any grant application, If he's willing to sign off on it for his days pay.

garo wrote: »

No the net price is 1680 after the grants. I was told I don't need to be an EI customer for the grants and energy credits.

You are right about not needing zones if I have a smart TRV on every rad but they are throwing in that zone thermostat as a freebie. I might use it in a room where the rad is not ideally located for temp sensing. Or maybe I should enquire if they will take that off the price if I don't take it.

1680 after the grants :eek:

I was looking at Honeywell for my house, figured I need 10 valves and the controller, which is about €900 from Amazon, plus I'd need TRV bodies as my rads don't currently have them (about €15 each).

Even with install (say it took a full day for a plumber to do all the TRVs) it's hard to see how it could come to that much after the €700 grant, never mind the supposed EI discount. If you already have TRVs on your rads you'd be better off installing it yourself and forgetting about the grant.

garo wrote: »

@deezell: Does the Evohome hot water kit allow one to do that?

Am I right in saying the best set up would be HW control through stats connected in series via the BD91 relay and CH though an OpenTherm bridge (thus bypassing OpenTherm for HW) with system configured for HW priority?

Yes and no. If boiler is actuated by simple relay contacts, with say one set for CH and another for HW, then these can be combined in a number of ways depending on your configuration. You say you have S plan no zones, which is a bit of a contradiction as S plan implies at least one heating zone independent of HW. More likely you have a single pumped/valved CH zone, with gravity or pumped to the HW cylinder. You say your install quote includes a motorised valve, which I assume is for the CH, but may perhaps be for the HW, as CH has its own smart TRVs. Whichever it is now or will be, a cylinder stat can be used to call the boiler directly or via it's motorised valve relay in tandem with a call from the thermostat/Evohome controller relay for CH. As your existing system and new system does not have a combi boiler with HW on demand, the Evohome will have to be able to generate 2 boiler call voltages, to call the boiler either for HW and open the HW motorised valve, or to call the boiler for CH, opening the TRVS, and/or the CH pump/valve. I read that it is possible to bind 2 RD 91 relays to the Evohome, one for CH and one for HW motorised valves which is a true S plan system. The valves relays in turn would call the boiler. If you wish to use OpenTherm signalling to the boiler, I would imagine the HW setup would be different, in that the controller would need some HW feedback for when to cut the boiler, as the cylinder stat is no longer in a loop to the boiler call for heat. To this end I see that Evohome have a wireless cylinder stat available to report cylinder temp back to the controller, and this would be required if you intend firing the boiler via OT, and independently for HW and CH. The firing characteristics are different in each case, as the boiler will modulatesl at lower temperatures when closely controlling CH, but will raise its temperature when only supplying HW, whither this is direct from a combi, or heated in a valved, pumped or gravity fed cylinder.
Without knowing your current or proposed layouts, it's hard to make exact recommendations, but to answer your original query, it's yes if you intend calling the boiler via a simple relay. If OT is involved, use the Evohome cylinder stat, and use this in either case if you want programmable HW time and temperature control.
As regards Solar PV panels, they're for generating electricity, and won't have any bearing on your system unless you intend to use the power generated to heat an immersion element perhaps, which would require a lot of panels and sunlight.

No the net price is 1680 after the grants. I was told I don't need to be an EI customer for the grants and energy credits.

You are right about not needing zones if I have a smart TRV on every rad but they are throwing in that zone thermostat as a freebie. I might use it in a room where the rad is not ideally located for temp sensing. Or maybe I should enquire if they will take that off the price if I don't take it.

garo wrote: »

Had EI surveyor come in to asses and he quoted 1684 for installing the base pack, hot water kit, motorized valve,12 TRVs and a single zone remote thermostat. With the grant/credits of 1030 I doubt buying hardware for ~1200 and getting someone to install would come out cheaper.

So 650 net price? Do you have to pay up front and then claim the grant after? Are you an EI customer already?

Also if you're putting a smart valve on every rad, do you still need the zone thermostat as well, what purpose does it serve?

deezell wrote: »

Better to fit a cylinder stat in series with the HW live to the boiler, then the boiler will turn off until the cylinder stat cools, and HW temperature can be set independent of boiler max temperature.The only reason for having timed HW at all is to save a few quid by not having a fully heated cylinder of HW 24/7, dissipating heat.

@deezell: Does the Evohome hot water kit allow one to do that?

Am I right in saying the best set up would be HW control through stats connected in series via the BD91 relay and CH though an OpenTherm bridge (thus bypassing OpenTherm for HW) with system configured for HW priority?

Long time lurker who has mostly read the entire thread in the past two months.:D Have some questions so would appreciate any answers.

Current Setup:
30 year old house, S-plan so no zones. 12 dumb rads. 15 year old Ideal Classic 18 boiler. Non-functional thermostat and manual timer control which I hate.
We have put in a new single coil pre-insulated tank recently so it is nice to have the hot water stay hot for a change!

I have mostly decided to go with EvoHome for the controls. With 12 Smart TRVs it gives the flexibility and control I want. Had EI surveyor come in to asses and he quoted 1684 for installing the base pack, hot water kit, motorized valve,12 TRVs and a single zone remote thermostat. With the grant/credits of 1030 I doubt buying hardware for ~1200 and getting someone to install would come out cheaper.

The EI surveyor also recommended changing the boiler. He said Logic System 24 as my gas pipe is not thick enough for the Bosch Worcester. He also said the Logic+ is only available in the UK market. Quoted an additional 1630 installed with a bracket and some bonding for the earthing wire I need.

Questions:
1. Is it worth replacing the boiler? I hate to change something that is not broken. But I suppose I will get a 15-20% efficiency gain going from 76% -> 90%.

2. Will the system be OpenTherm compatible? I assume that can be fitted later. The EI surveyor didn't seem very enthusiastic or knowledgable about OpenTherm but I know Evohome sell an OpenTherm Bridge. Is OpenTherm worth it? I understand it needs to be wired it with HW priority.

3. Will I need an automatic boiler bypass valve once OpenTherm is installed?

4. I plan to get Solar PV at some point in the future. Anything to keep in mind as a result?
Thanks

robinph

The subscription for the Tado app is to get the geofencing/ location functionality. You can still use it to do the per room schedule for heating without the subscription.

denismc

AFAIK you need the app to operate the Tado system and the newest version requires a subscription unfortunately.

AstraMonti

Thank you guys, I am tuned more towards the tado. The subscription fee is required for this operation or just for the location stuff?

getoffthepot

loyatemu wrote: »

presumably you need to have the main thermostat in the coldest room for that setup, but ideally you'd have TRVs on all the radiators.

That's correct, at times I do move it to the coldest room particularly when I'm in it and also it happens to be the man cave!

"Issue is the main Netatmo thermostat is the dominant controller"
As I understand it Netatmo TRVs can only operate in district/ community heating mode or as a programmable replacement for a mechanical TRV. They need a constant flow of heated water, as exists in a district system, but can't of themselves call the boiler when they require heat. In a standard setup with your own boiler and Netatmo TRVs you must provide the mechanism to do this, either a timer or a thermostat. If you use a thermostat, smart or manual, it will stop calling the boiler when it reaches target, though some of the TRVs may still be open. In this sense the TRVs can only act to cap room temperature, but not to initiate the flow of heated water.
Tado TRVs can act in district mode but can also call the boiler wirelessly via the main tado stat contacts. If this tado stat itself is at target in its own zone and has turned off the boiler, it will still call it at the behest of a TRV. As stated, non TRV rads in the main stat zone will continue to heat in this instance, but if all rads have TRVs, the main stat is actually just a relay for calling the boiler, while the TRVs open and close the rads in the zones. A TRV rad in the same location as the main stat can be slaved to the main stat so it uses the main stat's readings to open and close the TRV, giving more accurate control of temperature in the main stat location, as well as modularity of 0.1° increments. THe TRV built in stats can only be set in increments of 1°, although they measure at 0.1 ° modularity.
Most setups consist of a main stat firing a boiler to supply a mixture of open rads and TRV controlled ones. The TRVs will cap or turn off rooms completely according to their programmed schedule, calling the boiler via the main stat, though it itself might be at target. It's a compromise to complete control which only happens when every rad has a smart TRV, which have individual or grouped schedules.

getoffthepot wrote: »

I have Netatmo and added radiator valves before christmas so can control each room where I have them by temperature and time intervals.
'For example during the day I don't want to heat the bedrooms, just kitchen and living room' - yes it can do that with radiator valves in each room.
I have oil heating and basically had one zone before I added the valves.
Each valve is basically a new zone.
Issue is the main Netatmo thermostat is the dominant controller (could be another term but best I can think of).
If the main thermostat has reached it target temp then the boiler won't come on to heat the other rooms with the valves if they are below the target temp. so basically you can have the valve(s) off so the room with the valve doesn't heat or set to a target temp that wont be exceeded when the boiler does come on. The main thermostat is the driver and if it falls below the target temp then the boiler comes on and it will heat the 'no radiator valve' rooms and the valve ones but they may not reach their target temp before the main thermostat area!
I haven't really given it a lot of thought as to maybe switching the valves with the main thermostat (which is portable) to other rooms so that the issue above is minimized.

presumably you need to have the main thermostat in the coldest room for that setup, but ideally you'd have TRVs on all the radiators.

getoffthepot

AstraMonti wrote: »

Has anyone tested both Netatmo and Tado? Does anyone know if in both systems you can create zones to turn on/off the radiators? (assuming every radiator has a valve) For example during the day I don't want to heat the bedrooms, just kitchen and living room. Can I do this with both systems?
Also, I don't want the system to run automatically, rather than I want it to start at 5pm for kitchen/lving room, and 7pm for bedrooms until it reaches 20C. Again, can both systems do that?

If it matters the heating is oil boiler.

I have Netatmo and added radiator valves before christmas so can control each room where I have them by temperature and time intervals.
'For example during the day I don't want to heat the bedrooms, just kitchen and living room' - yes it can do that with radiator valves in each room.
I have oil heating and basically had one zone before I added the valves.
Each valve is basically a new zone.
Issue is the main Netatmo thermostat is the dominant controller (could be another term but best I can think of).
If the main thermostat has reached it target temp then the boiler won't come on to heat the other rooms with the valves if they are below the target temp. so basically you can have the valve(s) off so the room with the valve doesn't heat or set to a target temp that wont be exceeded when the boiler does come on. The main thermostat is the driver and if it falls below the target temp then the boiler comes on and it will heat the 'no radiator valve' rooms and the valve ones but they may not reach their target temp before the main thermostat area!
I haven't really given it a lot of thought as to maybe switching the valves with the main thermostat (which is portable) to other rooms so that the issue above is minimized.

denismc

AstraMonti wrote: »

Has anyone tested both Netatmo and Tado? Does anyone know if in both systems you can create zones to turn on/off the radiators? (assuming every radiator has a valve) For example during the day I don't want to heat the bedrooms, just kitchen and living room. Can I do this with both systems?
Also, I don't want the system to run automatically, rather than I want it to start at 5pm for kitchen/lving room, and 7pm for bedrooms until it reaches 20C. Again, can both systems do that?

If it matters the heating is oil boiler.

Can't speak for the Netamo but I have Tado and it does all of the above,
so you can set the temperature in each room and you can also set the times for each.
e.g you can have the bedrooms set to 20C between 8pm and midnight, and then 17C between midnight and 6 am and so on.

Also you can set the heating to turn off automatically when there is no-one in the house which is a nice feature.

AstraMonti

Has anyone tested both Netatmo and Tado? Does anyone know if in both systems you can create zones to turn on/off the radiators? (assuming every radiator has a valve) For example during the day I don't want to heat the bedrooms, just kitchen and living room. Can I do this with both systems?
Also, I don't want the system to run automatically, rather than I want it to start at 5pm for kitchen/lving room, and 7pm for bedrooms until it reaches 20C. Again, can both systems do that?

If it matters the heating is oil boiler.

SeanElec1

Tweaky, Interested to know how the WISER system works out, please pop us a message when the job is done.

Tweaky

bonnieprince wrote: »

Cannot see the 10% offer, do you have a link?

The Tado v3+ starter kit is down to £149 from £199. Seems good value and can add a thermostat for another £99.

Looks like the 10% was only for the weekend

bonnieprince

Tweaky wrote: »

Have gone with the Drayton Wiser kit after reading people’s views here. Seems to be great value for money especially if you want to add TRVs later. 10% off on amazon at the moment as well.

Cannot see the 10% offer, do you have a link?

The Tado v3+ starter kit is down to £149 from £199. Seems good value and can add a thermostat for another £99.

Tweaky

loyatemu wrote: »

let us know how you get on with it, I'm interested in the same system. Will you be installing yourself?

Will be getting an electrician to wire it in for me. Different backplate on my current controls. Might be a few weeks before it’s done. Like all the trades at the moment very busy and hard to get.

Tweaky wrote: »

Have gone with the Drayton Wiser kit after reading people’s views here. Seems to be great value for money especially if you want to add TRVs later. 10% off on amazon at the moment as well.

let us know how you get on with it, I'm interested in the same system. Will you be installing yourself?

Tweaky

Have gone with the Drayton Wiser kit after reading people’s views here. Seems to be great value for money especially if you want to add TRVs later. 10% off on amazon at the moment as well.

budhabob

Really appreciate all the help/advice/assistance Deezell