Border Poll discussion

downcow wrote: »

Lets say you got your way and the backstop stayed in place. In a year or two GB leaves the CU.
Do you think the people of NI should have the right at that point to decide do they go with UK or stay in CU.
You see i'm consistent. I could go with what the majority in NI want (even that is keep the backstop) providing you apply that same right to choose when the arrangements are worked out and uk leaves CU - Howe are you with that??

What? I can't make sense of that as a question. Sorry.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the point people are making is that the existing agreement (GFA) has to be honoured first by a special mechanism, regardless of what the rest of the UK decide to do. The GFA had separated northern Ireland already, so to speak.
The British found that mechanism themselves, but a northern Ireland political entity is opposed to it against the majority of people, against farming organisations and business organisations and the advice of security chiefs.

Who is being inconsistent I wonder?

Lets say you got your way and the backstop stayed in place. In a year or two GB leaves the CU.
Do you think the people of NI should have the right at that point to decide do they go with UK or stay in CU.
You see i'm consistent. I could go with what the majority in NI want (even that is keep the backstop) providing you apply that same right to choose when the arrangements are worked out and uk leaves CU - Howe are you with that??

Annd9 wrote: »

On a huge building site in North Dublin at the moment , I would guess 70% of the lads come across the border every morning .
That's just one site , have you ever seen how many northern reg cars are parked along the slip roads coming down the M1 ?
There are currently thousands coming over that border every day , but sure everything is just fine up north .

These endless stories back and forth prove little.

Lets look at the facts.

It is a minority of the people in the north who want to join ROI (and every pole or vote at any time in history has been the same). That would suggest people in NI think life is better in the north - would you agree with that?

A majority of those living in the South would like NI to come and join them (and every pole or vote at any time in history has been the same). That would suggest people in Southerners think life would be better with the addition of the North - would you agree with that?

So you can quote all the stats you like the majority of people on the island clearly want a bit of the action in the north - so it can't be that bad a place - would you agree with that.

Or of course alternatively people in both countries don't care about the financial aspect and are coming at this decision from a point of view of identity etc - either way those proposing a UI are screwed

blanch152 wrote: »

The suggestion that Northern Ireland should be allowed stay in the EU because the vote there was to stay is in contravention of the referendum legislation, but that doesn't stop people making it.

I am just making the point that consistency of argument is a very difficult thing to find around here. Those who think the referendum legislation can be changed insist that the GFA is sacrosant, that is inconsistency.

I think the point people are making is that the existing agreement (GFA) has to be honoured first by a special mechanism, regardless of what the rest of the UK decide to do. The GFA had separated northern Ireland already, so to speak.
The British found that mechanism themselves, but a northern Ireland political entity is opposed to it against the majority of people, against farming organisations and business organisations and the advice of security chiefs.

Who is being inconsistent I wonder?

blanch152

Havockk wrote: »

That would be in contravention of the GFA. As you all well know.

The suggestion that Northern Ireland should be allowed stay in the EU because the vote there was to stay is in contravention of the referendum legislation, but that doesn't stop people making it.

I am just making the point that consistency of argument is a very difficult thing to find around here. Those who think the referendum legislation can be changed insist that the GFA is sacrosant, that is inconsistency.

Annd9

facehugger99 wrote: »

Maybe when generations are leaving for the ROI your argument might make sense.

On a huge building site in North Dublin at the moment , I would guess 70% of the lads come across the border every morning .
That's just one site , have you ever seen how many northern reg cars are parked along the slip roads coming down the M1 ?
There are currently thousands coming over that border every day , but sure everything is just fine up north .

facehugger99 wrote: »

Maybe when generations are leaving for the ROI your argument might make sense.

Many do, mostly to Dublin down the M1. But, it's also close enough to commute home.

Economic activity has stagnated in NI due to the collapse in the Stormont. Although a subsidiary company of ours got a massive boost as a particular industry used up its budget before the end of march, but the economies are not comparable.

Havockk

blanch152 wrote: »

I would bet that few on that side of the debate would argue that Antrim could stay in the UK if it voted accordingly. Those crying about Northern Ireland being bound by the UK vote would soon change their tune.

That would be in contravention of the GFA. As you all well know.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The people in the north voted by a majority to remain within the EU.

They look set to be dragged out of it against their wishes.

Goose and Gander springs to mind.

I would bet that few on that side of the debate would argue that Antrim could stay in the UK if it voted accordingly. Those crying about Northern Ireland being bound by the UK vote would soon change their tune.

facehugger99

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I think you are underestimating them. Especially as they have witnessed generations leave for GB and not come back.

Maybe when generations are leaving for the ROI your argument might make sense.

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

A poll right now would be a landslide for remain in UK yes? Brexit won’t have made that much difference surely? Or have things changed.

A win for the status quo, probably. A landslide, who knows.

After a hard brexit, highly unlikely.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Can we move away from the tangential argument about trains please.

IamtheWalrus

A poll right now would be a landslide for remain in UK yes? Brexit won’t have made that much difference surely? Or have things changed.

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t make the argument. A poster was sighting the fantastic rail system as practically the only way in which roi outshone NI. And the laugh is that it is actually more expensive than NI trains. My point was both are very poor.

But you are right. A silly argument

downcow wrote:

Well now a few people came up to visit last week from cork and they drive because they couldn’t afford the extortionate train fares

downcow wrote: »

X 4 people = 428 euro eye watering

I have just been to berlin for £58 return

What are you comparing cost of rail regardless whether the company was Irish or UK versus car?

Of course the car was going to be cheaper for 4 to chip in. But, what's your actual point?

BTW, do you realise you can get to Berlin so cheap because of the industry disruption brought about by an Irish company?

You're welcome :pac::pac::D

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If 4 people wish to travel together and have the driver pay for all of them, that is indeed eyewatering.

Individually though, you have had it shown to you that it costs about the same on either service.

Another silly argument demolished.

I didn’t make the argument. A poster was sighting the fantastic rail system as practically the only way in which roi outshone NI. And the laugh is that it is actually more expensive than NI trains. My point was both are very poor.

But you are right. A silly argument

downcow wrote: »

X 4 people = 428 euro eye watering

If 4 people wish to travel together and have the driver pay for all of them, that is indeed eyewatering.

Individually though, you have had it shown to you that it costs about the same on either service.

Another silly argument demolished.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Translink Belfast botanical to Cork £71.50 return. £64.50 single.

Irishrail Cork to Belfast €107.90. €53.95 single.

After conversion not much difference in costs for a return. If they can't afford that they should have worked harder in school

X 4 people = 428 euro eye watering

I have just been to berlin for £58 return

facehugger99 wrote: »

It will be a stay or leave option, same as Scotland.

They’ll have to accept the very likely possibility that we in the ROI are not going to step into the sugar-daddy role.

It’s another reason why the comfortable public sector workforce will never vote to leave.

Life’s too good for them on the tit of mother England, so to speak.

I think you are underestimating them. Especially as they have witnessed generations leave for GB and not come back.

Translink Belfast botanical to Cork £71.50 return. £64.50 single.

Irishrail Cork to Belfast €107.90. €53.95 single.

After conversion not much difference in costs for a return. If they can't afford that they should have worked harder in school

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

An 'independent state' choice would have to be on the ballot and it won't. That would have to be separate as we in the south would have no say in that.

A border poll under the auspices of the GFA will have a Stay or Unity option only.

It will be a stay or leave option, same as Scotland.

They’ll have to accept the very likely possibility that we in the ROI are not going to step into the sugar-daddy role.

It’s another reason why the comfortable public sector workforce will never vote to leave.

Life’s too good for them on the tit of mother England, so to speak.

downcow wrote: »

Well now a few people came up to visit last week from cork and they drive because they couldn’t afford the extortionate train fares

Have you resorted to meaningless anecdotes already? 2/10.

facehugger99 wrote: »

The people of ROI would need to vote for it too, which would be highly unlikely given the financial implications.

What financial implications? Can you quantify outside a subvention figure that's completely opaque. No? Didnt think so.

Without knowing that your assertion is very weak.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It's ok, down here, I can manage to pay all of those things and have a lot left over thanks to my significantly increased salary, besides, my work provided health insurance covers the majority of the health care costs. I don't tend to drive too often, as I have great train links to most places I need to be, which I certainly couldn't say back home

Well now a few people came up to visit last week from cork and they drive because they couldn’t afford the extortionate train fares

facehugger99 wrote: »

The people of ROI would need to vote for it too, which would be highly unlikely given the financial implications.

A stand alone state would be the most likely outcome of NI choosing to leave the Union.

An 'independent state' choice would have to be on the ballot and it won't. That would have to be separate as we in the south would have no say in that.

A border poll under the auspices of the GFA will have a Stay or Unity option only.

facehugger99

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've got no problem with the EU and am a remainer,I've also got no problem with a UI if that's what the people of NI want.

The people of ROI would need to vote for it too, which would be highly unlikely given the financial implications.

A stand alone state would be the most likely outcome of NI choosing to leave the Union.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

If I am feeling unwell tonight, I can phone my gp at 8.30 in the morning and I will get an appointment same day. If after attending I need medication then she will write a prescription which I will take to my pharmacy and get meds handed to me.

Phone call to doc. £0
Consultation with doc £0
Blood tests etc with nurse £0
Charge for prescription £0
Charge for medication. £0
Living in UK. Priceless

I’m told it’s different down south

I see that there has been a 5% increase in Council Tax in the UK. That brings the annual cost to the most common band (D) to £1,671 per annum.

I know they don't pay Council Tax in NI (another difference to the rest of the UK), but are Rates at a similar level?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is exactly what the poster is doing. He presents the aspirations of the NHS as the reality. As we all know, the reality is different and more nuanced.

Do you think the likes of Ress-Mogg rely on the NHS?

Bupa UK Insurance is the UK’s leading health insurer, offering health insurance to 2.2 million people.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

ut let's not play silly buggers and pretend it's the land of milk and honey either.

That is exactly what the poster is doing. He presents the aspirations of the NHS as the reality. As we all know, the reality is different and more nuanced.