RobMc59 wrote: » Living your life in the past won't bring a UI-neither will snide comments. There's nothing wrong with being patriotic but extreme views unsettle ordinary people and cause entrenchment.
RobMc59 wrote: » The bombing campaign in Britain towards the end was a serious miscalculation
Avatar MIA wrote: » any threat or act of loyalism in the run up to a UI would likewise be ineffective.
facehugger99 wrote: » I think it would may a fair few people in the Republic reconsider whether unification was worth the hassle. The ROI electorate has always been very soft on unification. It's not something that forms part of the national conversation. We're a bit like Saint Augustine - Lord, make us unified - but not yet. From what I can see, other than the odd SF politician every few months and about 4 posters on Boards, it's never really mentioned at all in day to day life. Once the Brexit question is resolved, it'll be quietly popped to the back-burner again, as has always been the case.
Havockk wrote: » You have literally no clue as to what is happening in the minds of nationalists in the North right now. Even if brexit is resolved, nothing will change with this new push to unification. The North is going to take another hit for even in the 'best of both worlds' scenario one of those worlds, the UK is going to go down the drain anyway. So literally the best we can hope for is to 'stay the same' as now... in which case, we already know we are a hell of a lot worse off.
facehugger99 wrote: » Nor do I care. It's an entirely different jurisdiction. I'm only concerned about the Republic of Ireland.
Havockk wrote: » If you don't care it doesn't make much sense to be in debating about it in the border poll thread you'll not mind me pointing out so.
facehugger99 wrote: » Are you under the impression that a unification vote will only be carried out in the North?
Research carried out by Amch on behalf of the Claire Byrne Live show found that 86% of people wanted to see a 32 county republic rather than the 14% who wanted a hard border. Meanwhile, when asked “Are you in favour of a united Ireland”, 54% of people said yes, 21% said no while 25% said they did not know. Over 1,000 people from the Republic of Ireland were surveyed for both polls.
Havockk wrote: » No, I'm under no illusions but all indications and polling show that a healthy majority in the South will vote for unification. I don't have to sway you, it's unnecessary.
facehugger99 wrote: » Honestly, the question of you 'swaying' me is immaterial - you seemed confused that I was commenting in a thread about a border poll when I don't care about norther nationalist opinion - I hope that I've been able to explain that one to you. As to the supposed slam-dunk of the ROI voting for it - the question of cost has never been fully factored in to such poll questions and when it has, even obliquely, there's a huge drop off in support. Do you want Unification - Sure, OK. Do you want to pay €10bn a year for it? - Ahh no, you're grand thanks.
BonnieSituation wrote: » My God you are incessant I'll give you that. Sure we can all play that game: Do you want Unification - Sure, OK. Do you want to pay €1bn a year for it? - Sure thing boss. --- Any chance you can explain how you think that that 10bn from the Brits will just be swapped for 10bn from Ireland? You've been asked repeatedly and you've cime up with nothing outside of "that's what the subvention is, so that's what the subvention will be..."
facehugger99 wrote: » Nor does it take account of funding a €98bn public servant pension liability.
jm08 wrote: » I'm not living in the past and I certainly don't want to go back there. My point about the Stock Exchange is that the threat to the City is what got the British Government talking to the Provos, not loyalists killing catholics in Northern Ireland as has been claimed. The Canary Wharf bombing in 1996 was a reminder to the British Government ''That they had not gone away''.
facehugger99 wrote: » The €10bn figure is very conservative. It doesn't take account of the drag to the economy in paying billions to NI public servants - money that could be used to boost productivity {vague} in the Republic through much need infrastructural investments {vague}.
or does it take account of funding a €98bn public servant pension liability.
Nor does it take account of increased security costs and loss of FDIs should some head-the-balls take a leaf out of the IRA playbook.
In my view €10bn doesn't even come close to the true cost and once that cost is known, no Irish citizen will mortgage his children and grandchildren's future on the basis of some outdated nationalist pipe dream.
BonnieSituation wrote: » It's very conservative says who? You? Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that the North's defence force proportion is approx 988m. That no longer will have to be paid. So straight away we've brought down, to an even more conservative 9bn.
BonnieSituation wrote: » Do you know how pension liabilities work? We are literally not gonna be on the hook for that save some agreement with Britain. Why keep saying we are. It's almost like you're being disingenuous with your "argument".
BonnieSituation wrote: » Right, so now we have to assume costs for terrorist attacks? Isn't that why police forces have budgets? You vastly over estimate loyalist capabilities and support. You also make out that in your fantasy world where both north and south have voted to reunify that loyalists would have any support given the clear democratic will of both jurisdictions.
BonnieSituation wrote: » What FDI would be lost? If anything FDI would receive a boost, suddenly the island is a good news story with an extra 1.8m people within its jurisdiction.
BonnieSituation wrote: » ... You seem to think that no body works in the north; that there's no tax take at all to be had. Do you really think that on unification that there's just gonna be an Extra 1.8m dole spongers or public sector workers?
jmayo wrote: » What about the increased security costs for the south ? What about the necessary ramp up in our military numbers and spending which will undoubtedly be needed since we are taking on extra territory, a territory which historically has had terrorists and unrest ? Maybe the Brits will leave us a load of kit.:rolleyes: Our police force haven't the resources to really fight a few gangs never mind a possible hostile community that could resort to violence and terrorism. Even if no terrorism, imagine the cost of policing all those parades. ?
downcow wrote: » HMG were talking to the IRA from the beginning of the troubles. It didnt take bombs in the 90s to achieve that.
I did not claim loyalists killing catholics got hmg talking to provos. I said it brought serious pressure on the IRA from within their own community. I remember clearly how vast numbers of cathiolics had stopped going out to pubs etc because they were afraid of the despicable pub shootings, whereas Prods were getting on with their social lives fairly unhindered. There was a IRA ceasefire within a year
BonnieSituation wrote: » It's very conservative says who? You?
BonnieSituation wrote: » In your view... And when we know the true cost... I mean, you couldn't make it up!
jmayo wrote: » What about the increased security costs for the south ? What about the necessary ramp up in our military numbers and spending which will undoubtedly be needed since we are taking on extra territory, a territory which historically has had terrorists and unrest ? Maybe the Brits will leave us a load of kit.:rolleyes: Ah so the Brits will gladly keep paying the pensions. Any chance you could get that in writing for us ? Our police force haven't the resources to really fight a few gangs never mind a possible hostile community that could resort to violence and terrorism. Even if no terrorism, imagine the cost of policing all those parades. Yeah because the FDIs site in Ireland for the Irish market. Fecks sake I hope you don't believe that shyte. :rolleyes: Can you give us some examples of what economic benefits NI will bring to the rest of this island and the economy of the Republic ?
jm08 wrote: » I'm well aware that there was plenty of talking going on, which went no where until the bombing of the Stock Exchange. The Provos had complete control of their own areas and were happy to use any method such as punishment beatings, kneecapping ect. to maintain that control. Lack of a social life were the least of nationalist's troubles. The GAA was far more central to nationalists social lives than boozing in the local pub anyway.
facehugger99 wrote: » Listen, I can save you a bit of time in future responses. Going forward you can assume that any posts I make are my opinion on the matter. Your own posts are remarkably short on any hard figures. It'll all become a lot clearer if the issue ever threatens to go to a poll, but we're many years, even decades away from any serious chance of that. It would be my own hope that this 18th century focus on nationalistic borders will have been consigned to the dustbin of history by then anyway,
jmayo wrote: » What about the increased security costs for the south ? What about the necessary ramp up in our military numbers and spending which will undoubtedly be needed since we are taking on extra territory, a territory which historically has had terrorists and unrest ? Maybe the Brits will leave us a load of kit.:rolleyes:
Ah so the Brits will gladly keep paying the pensions. Any chance you could get that in writing for us ?
Our police force haven't the resources to really fight a few gangs never mind a possible hostile community that could resort to violence and terrorism. Even if no terrorism, imagine the cost of policing all those parades.
Yeah because the FDIs site in Ireland for the Irish market. Fecks sake I hope you don't believe that shyte. :rolleyes:
Can you give us some examples of what economic benefits NI will bring to the rest of this island and the economy of the Republic ?
RobMc59 wrote: » I don`t see how your posts would persuade anyone to have a sudden epiphany and wish for a NI ,living alongside all the wonderful people you`re describing
I thought of that exchange earlier last week when Jarlath Burns described the national anthem and the tricolour as "divisive" and said he would support giving them up at GAA games if it would help to persuade some Unionists to support us. "It wouldn't cost me a thought," he said. "If I thought for a moment that Ulster Unionist MLA Tom Elliott would become our greatest fan, I would get rid of them surely." It is worth reminding ourselves that Tom is the man who proudly boasted at his party conference in 2010 that he would "never go to a GAA game or a gay march." The reality is that no appeasement would satisfy the Tom Elliotts of this world. The whole point of a civilised society is to respect difference, not abandon what we are in order to satisfy extremists. The world is awash with political correctness. Its main function is to make us feel embarrassed about who we are and what we think, and to create a world that is entirely bland.
BonnieSituation wrote: » You're the one that is obsessed with cost though and who has page after page continued to roll out the same unsubstantiated nonsense.
jmayo wrote: » As opposed to you that totally dismisses the huge economic costs of running NI. The day to day running costs are very well substantiated whereas your hair brained ideas are well just your hair brained ideas. Oh and probably a huge chunk of sinn feins. :rolleyes: Actually blanch152 hit the nail on the head, your argument is a carbon copy of the hard-line Brexiteers. You might as well just use the slogan "Just believe".
BonnieSituation wrote: » So I'll ask again, if it cost nothing would you still vote for reunification?
jm08 wrote: » Where are the PSNI (and its kit) going?
jm08 wrote: » They might not do it gladly, but I'm fairly sure that Arlene and Co. will make sure they get their British pensions.
jm08 wrote: » PSNI are well probably the most highly trained anti-terrorism police force in the world. And they know who they are.
jm08 wrote: » Some of the reasons why FDI's locate to Ireland are a) English speaking, b) young, educated workforce, c) CT rate. As it is, approx. 18% of the Republic's workforce are imported!, who all need to be housed and schools built for their children. FDI's can get all of those things in NI now. Take Boston Scientif - they have 3 plants in Ireland (Galway, Cork & Clonmel). If they want to expand, they would likely be attracted to siting their new plant (with the same conditions like tax etc), in the North East where there is an available workforce. A country's wealth is its people. With its traditional engineering history, it would complement the rest of the island.
jm08 wrote: » Just think of the Titanic Quarter in Belfast - it was transformed by Harcourt Development into a thriving prosperous area that is bringing money into Belfast and no doubt into the developers pockets (and who pay their CT in the ROI).
